the most overrated Hockey player of all time

[Sentinel]

Why is everybody so upset that Brodeur is at #50? After what he did in last PO, he should be a lot higher. Outplayed Lundquist, in case you have forgotten.

As for that "Sakic & Selanne" thing: you haven't read it carefully, have you? I said that everybody on the "in-their-primes" 02 DRW would serve a particular purpose in playing the 84 Oilers. All 5 centers on that DRW were better defensive forwards than Joe, and the only RW Teemu could replace is Deveraugh.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Why is everybody so upset that Brodeur is at #50? After what he did in last PO, he should be a lot higher. Outplayed Lundquist, in case you have forgotten.

As for that "Sakic & Selanne" thing: you haven't read it carefully, have you? I said that everybody on the "in-their-primes" 02 DRW would serve a particular purpose in playing the 84 Oilers. All 5 centers on that DRW were better defensive forwards than Joe, and the only RW Teemu could replace is Deveraugh.

Perhaps you meant Devils outplayed Rangers.

 

[Jabroni]

Perhaps you meant Devils outplayed Rangers.

This is a much more accurate statement than "Brodeur outplayed Lundqvist".

Hank actually stole game 3 for the Rangers. The Devils just played better.

 

[seventieslord]

They rated Doughty as the number 1 D-man, I assume because he had a good playoffs. They must have forgot that he had a whopping 76 points the last 2 seasons and will be making 7 million a year.

Well, for starters, "hockey card stats" are just about the last thing you should judge a defenseman by.

Doughty's not the best defenseman in the NHL, but he is pretty close with all things considered.

As for Nash.... yeah, I don't know who has ever done so little to be rated so highly by THN. Honestly, is he even conclusively better than Phil Kessel at this point?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Perhaps you meant Devils outplayed Rangers.

Brodeur outplayed Lundqvist in the final 3 games of the series, which was one of the major keys to the Devils advancing. Brodeur ended the series with a higher save percentage than Lundqvist, despite (IMO) seeing on average tougher shots. That's before you take into account the effect of his puckhandling on the Rangers dump and chase (much less of an effect than against the Flyers, but still there).

I don't see any possible criteria by which Brodeur didn't outplay Lundqvist over the entire series - its one of the reasons he was a leading candidate for the Conn Smythe going into the finals

As for Nash.... yeah, I don't know who has ever done so little to be rated so highly by THN. Honestly, is he even conclusively better than Phil Kessel at this point?

If both players come close to repeating their 2011-12, I'd have to consider Kessel the better player.

 

[King Forsberg]

As for that "Sakic & Selanne" thing: you haven't read it carefully, have you? I said that everybody on the "in-their-primes" 02 DRW would serve a particular purpose in playing the 84 Oilers. All 5 centers on that DRW were better defensive forwards than Joe, and the only RW Teemu could replace is Deveraugh.

Boyd Devereaux is disappointed that a Red Wings homer like yourself cannot spell his name. However it doesn't matter if any of the Wings' centers are better defensively than Sakic. He was a better player than any of the Wings' centers and forwards. An "In his prime Steve Yzerman" wasn't better than a prime Joe Sakic. Better players will help you win more games. Same goes for Selanne. He was better than all of the Wings' singers in his prime except Hull. He is on another level compared to Robitaille.

 

[#66]

I thought that was Pavel Datsyuk?

There's the name I was looking for. I like Dats but if people want to say that Ron Francis was very good for a long time without being great...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Well, for starters, "hockey card stats" are just about the last thing you should judge a defenseman by.

Doughty's not the best defenseman in the NHL, but he is pretty close with all things considered.

As for Nash.... yeah, I don't know who has ever done so little to be rated so highly by THN. Honestly, is he even conclusively better than Phil Kessel at this point?

talent-wise he is. which is to say nash has the capability of playing a two-way game that kessel can't even imagine in his dreams. offensively, it's probably a wash though kessel is the better playmaker by some margin. in terms of what they both have done on the ice in the last two seasons, i'd say you're right; it's debatable. i guess the big question with nash is now that he's out of columbus, will we finally see him consistently give a crap in NHL play. no justification for the high esteem THN seems to hold him in though.

as for doughty, if you go solely by last year's playoffs, i don't think we've seen a defenseman have a playoff run like that since pronger (not niedermayer) in '07. that includes post-lockout lidstrom, plus keith and chara in their cup years.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Brodeur outplayed Lundqvist in the final 3 games of the series, which was one of the major keys to the Devils advancing. Brodeur ended the series with a higher save percentage than Lundqvist, despite (IMO) seeing on average tougher shots. That's before you take into account the effect of his puckhandling on the Rangers dump and chase (much less of an effect than against the Flyers, but still there).

I don't see any possible criteria by which Brodeur didn't outplay Lundqvist over the entire series - its one of the reasons he was a leading candidate for the Conn Smythe going into the finals

If both players come close to repeating their 2011-12, I'd have to consider Kessel the better player.

Blowing a 3-goal and 2-goal advantage in games 5 & 6 is nothing to write home about.

Leading candidate for Conn Smythe? Wow, we must watch games completely differently. (I guess that's a given though, eh?)

 

[seventieslord]

he (and the Devils) did blow their share of leads in this year's playoffs, no question.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

talent-wise he is. which is to say nash has the capability of playing a two-way game that kessel can't even imagine in his dreams. offensively, it's probably a wash though kessel is the better playmaker by some margin. in terms of what they both have done on the ice in the last two seasons, i'd say you're right; it's debatable. i guess the big question with nash is now that he's out of columbus, will we finally see him consistently give a crap in NHL play. no justification for the high esteem THN seems to hold him in though.

as for doughty, if you go solely by last year's playoffs, i don't think we've seen a defenseman have a playoff run like that since pronger (not niedermayer) in '07. that includes post-lockout lidstrom, plus keith and chara in their cup years.

Many fans don't realize how useless a player Kessel is when he isn't producing.

Doughty is easily the most gifted defenseman in the game.

 

[Sentinel]

Boyd Devereaux is disappointed that a Red Wings homer like yourself cannot spell his name. However it doesn't matter if any of the Wings' centers are better defensively than Sakic. He was a better player than any of the Wings' centers and forwards. An "In his prime Steve Yzerman" wasn't better than a prime Joe Sakic. Better players will help you win more games. Same goes for Selanne. He was better than all of the Wings' singers in his prime except Hull. He is on another level compared to Robitaille.

Oh, a Colorado homer speaking... FWIW, there was only one Red Wings Homer, and his name was Tomas. Selanne was a better SINGER than DRW singers? On behalf of Karen Newman, I say: "whatever."

On the subject: whatever. "Another level compared to Robitaille"...

 

[DohBruins]

Many fans don't realize how useless a player Kessel is when he isn't producing.

Doughty is easily the most gifted defenseman in the game.

Better than Pronger, Chara, Weber, Karlsson?... easily???

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Blowing a 3-goal and 2-goal advantage in games 5 & 6 is nothing to write home about.

Leading candidate for Conn Smythe? Wow, we must watch games completely differently. (I guess that's a given though, eh?)

From a quick google search:

On May 29, in their Stanley Cup finals preview, NHL.com listed their 6 Conn Smythe candidates. Brodeur was 6th behind Jonathan Quick, Ilya Kovalchuk, Dustin Brown, Zach Parise, and Anze Kopitar:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=633118

(In my personal opinion, Parise didn't have a case - it was either Kovalchuk or Brodeur with Parise and Zajac a bit behind).

On June 5, after the Devils went down 3-0 in the finals, a Bleacher Report article ranked Brodeur 3rd behind Jonathan Quick and Anze Kopitar in a list of Conn Smythe candidates:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nley-cup-finals-conn-smythe-trophy-candidates

On the same day, another Bleacher Report article ranked Brodeur 4th behind Quick, Kopitar, and Dustin Brown:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...n-the-top-5-nhl-playoff-mvp-candidates/page/6

On June 10 after the Devils won Game 5 of the finals to close to a 3-2 deficit, ESPN had Brodeur as the Devils' leading Conn Smythe candidate:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/7971043/conn-smythe-candidates

I think it's safe to say that Brodeur was a leading candidate for the Conn Smythe if the Devils had won.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

From a quick google search:

On May 29, in their Stanley Cup finals preview, NHL.com listed their 6 Conn Smythe candidates. Brodeur was 6th behind Jonathan Quick, Ilya Kovalchuk, Dustin Brown, Zach Parise, and Anze Kopitar:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=633118

(In my personal opinion, Parise didn't have a case - it was either Kovalchuk or Brodeur with Parise and Zajac a bit behind).

On June 5, after the Devils went down 3-0 in the finals, a Bleacher Report article ranked Brodeur 3rd behind Jonathan Quick and Anze Kopitar in a list of Conn Smythe candidates:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nley-cup-finals-conn-smythe-trophy-candidates

On the same day, another Bleacher Report article ranked Brodeur 4th behind Quick, Kopitar, and Dustin Brown:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...n-the-top-5-nhl-playoff-mvp-candidates/page/6

On June 10 after the Devils won Game 5 of the finals to close to a 3-2 deficit, ESPN had Brodeur as the Devils' leading Conn Smythe candidate:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/7971043/conn-smythe-candidates

I think it's safe to say that Brodeur was a leading candidate for the Conn Smythe if the Devils had won.

I guess you are correct.

Even though 6 other goaltenders had a better save percentage and goals against during the playoffs than Brodeur, he still could have won the Conn Smythe.

And what's the title of this thread?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I guess you are correct.

Even though 6 other goaltenders had a better save percentage and goals against during the playoffs than Brodeur, he still could have won the Conn Smythe.

And what's the title of this thread?

My guess is that most Conn Smythe voters base their judgements on watching the playoffs; or at least they follow player stats as the games are going on, rather than judging players who played entirely different opponents solely on the basis of their averaged stats once the playoffs are over.

 

[BraveCanadian]

My guess is that most Conn Smythe voters base their judgements on watching the playoffs; or at least they follow player stats as the games are going on, rather than judging players who played entirely different opponents solely on the basis of their averaged stats once the playoffs are over.

Pffft.. who needs to watch games to form opinions?

 

[JuniorNelson]

Without question it's Gretzky. No question at all. None. This favoritism is the most shameful display by a league, ever. Utterly unparalleled.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I think it's safe to say that Brodeur was a leading candidate for the Conn Smythe if the Devils had won.

The value of the Conn Smythe as an indicator of individual goodness is hurt by the last part of this sentence, which is certainly an important consideration in the vast majority of playoffs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My guess is that most Conn Smythe voters base their judgements on watching the playoffs; or at least they follow player stats as the games are going on, rather than judging players who played entirely different opponents solely on the basis of their averaged stats once the playoffs are over.

Were there any actual Conn Smythe voters from NHL.com, Bleacherreport or ESPN?

And please don't tell me Brodeur was possibly the MVP of the playoffs based on what we both watched.

 

[King Forsberg]

Oh, a Colorado homer speaking... FWIW, there was only one Red Wings Homer, and his name was Tomas. Selanne was a better SINGER than DRW singers? On behalf of Karen Newman, I say: "whatever."

On the subject: whatever. "Another level compared to Robitaille"...

I'm not even a Colorado fan. I'm a Flyers fan. So my view of Sakic isn't biased as your opinion is of the Red Wings.

Yes Selanne is on a different level compared to Robitaille. Selanne led the league in goals twice in his prime and three times overall. Something Robitaille has never done. He also finished 2nd in points twice which is something again Robitaille never did.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The value of the Conn Smythe as an indicator of individual goodness is hurt by the last part of this sentence, which is certainly an important consideration in the vast majority of playoffs.

To an extent, I agree. But on the other hand, in this hypothetical where the Devils win the Cup, Brodeur doesn't have the game 6 implosion (which wasn't close to all his fault, but he was definitely a part of it) and probably continues to outplay Quick, as he (IMO) did in 4 of the first 5 games of the series.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Were there any actual Conn Smythe voters from NHL.com, Bleacherreport or ESPN?

And please don't tell me Brodeur was possibly the MVP of the playoffs based on what we both watched.

I would be really surprised if neither Pierre Lebrun or Scott Burnside had a vote for the Conn Smythe, and I would guess that NHL.com has voters too.

Based on what I saw, Brodeur outplayed his opposing goalie in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs - and by a clear margin in the final few games of each series. This is the general perception of the fans and the media who watched the games, and the stats agree.

IMO, Brodeur was better than Quick in 4 of the 6 games of the finals, but part of that was that he had to be better as NJ's skaters were outclassed.

And no, Brodeur was excellent, but wasn't good enough to be a rare winner on a losing team, especially with the Game 6 blowout.

When you post things like "Brodeur couldn't have been that great, look at his overall save percentage and GAA," you are neglecting the fact that he played high scoring teams in 3 of the 4 rounds and that his GAA and save % were better than his opposing goaltender in the first 3 rounds. You also make it hard for me to believe you watched much of the Devils in the last playoffs.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm not even a Colorado fan. I'm a Flyers fan. So my view of Sakic isn't biased as your opinion is of the Red Wings.

Yes Selanne is on a different level compared to Robitaille. Selanne led the league in goals twice in his prime and three times overall. Something Robitaille has never done. He also finished 2nd in points twice which is something again Robitaille never did.

i love luc and don't care for selanne at all. but even i don't see how selanne > robitaille is even remotely debatable. hart voting, scoring finishes, even career totals (if teemu outlasts the lockout, he's almost a lock to pass robitaille in career goals; has already passed luc in points). if you adjust for era and position, it becomes even more mind-boggling. how is this an argument?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Since this thread is all over the place anyway, here's something I discovered during the last All Time Draft:

Top 10 finishes in points:

Teemu Selanne: 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8
Bernard Geoffrion: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7

Selanne's two runner-up finishes were to Mario Lemieux in 1997 and Jaromir Jagr in 1999.

Geoffrion's playoff heroics are the only thing seperating them, and IMO Selanne makes some of that back with his international heroics.