the most overrated Hockey player of all time

[mike14]

The problem with Messier is the end of his career.

Most guys just lose effectiveness and fade away - it happens, doesn't really tarnish your legacy.

Messier completely lost the plot, became caught up in his own myth, demanded to be a quasi-GM of teams toward the end of his career and wouldn't recognize his own declining skills in the process. Became a cancer and a player who made his teams worse.

The question becomes how much the last 7 years of his career take away from the first 15.

Ha, was logging on to post something very similar.

When Messier left the Rangers he was coming off 99 and 84 point seasons. Yeah he was past his prime, but still contributing well. Vancouver was a disaster both on ice (60pts was his best effort) and off. he came back to the Rangers where the GM thought the sun shone out of his butt, and he thought he'd be able lead them back to the promised land. Unfortunately, rather than see that his best was behind him and use him as a PP/burst player, the Rangers tried him as a cure-all on a horrible team and it failed miserably (although he still hit 67 pts in his first season back, which isn't horrible).

Should the last 1/3rd of his career overshadow the first 2/3rds? I say no, but it does tarnish his legacy as he faded away rather than disappearing while people still thought he had something to give.

interestingly, there were rumours during the '04 trade period that the Habs were offering a 1st rounder for him to go on a cup run but Slats said no so he could retire a blueshirt. If true, it shows that others out there still thought he could contribute under the right conditions

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

The problem with Messier is the end of his career.

Most guys just lose effectiveness and fade away - it happens, doesn't really tarnish your legacy.

Messier completely lost the plot, became caught up in his own myth, demanded to be a quasi-GM of teams toward the end of his career and wouldn't recognize his own declining skills in the process. Became a cancer and a player who made his teams worse.

The question becomes how much the last 7 years of his career take away from the first 15.

Except none of this actually happened. This is an internet myth, and has been debunked time and time again.

Was Messier a declining player in Vancouver? Yes. Was he a cancer who didn't care and half-assed it? No. Did he come into Vancouver and dismantle a powerhouse team that had just made it to game seven of the SCF? No, that team already sucked. And if Messier is going to be blamed for dismantling this mythical Linden-led powerhouse (which, again, never actually existed) then he's probably the best GM Vancouver ever had because Bertuzzi, Naslund and Jovanovski were all brought in during his time there. And all those players credited Messier with having a postive effect on his development. But again, this is all irrelevant because there's no evidence that Messier exerted that kind of influence over Canck personnel moves.

And if he did... Well, Lemieux has been blamed for the Pens moving Zubov and Naslund in terrible deals. Its kind of funny that thats never brought up as 'tarnishing' his legacy while Messier's resume has been repeatedly attacked over GOOD trades that he may or may nt have had anything to do with.

His return to the Rangers was a nice PR story at the time but no one expected Messier to turn them around at that point. So he guaranteed the playoffs and it didnt happen. So what? What was he supposed to say? The Rangers were a mess before he got there, and remained a mess for about another decade. I fail to see how not being able to turn around that train-wreck at age 40 is a knock against one of the great careers in hockey. I watched a largely useless Yzerman captain Detroit to one of the great playoff upsets against Edmonton at a simar age. No one brings that up as tarnishing his legacy. All players decline with age. Strange that its only held against Messier.

Its really sad to see how some braying internet fanboys have managed to largely impact how a lot of people view one of the absolutely premier players of his or any era. If anything, Messier has become underrated by people buying into this Vancouver myth.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

Jarome Iginla and Trevor Linden.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Except none of this actually happened. This is an internet myth, and has been debunked time and time again.

Was Messier a declining player in Vancouver? Yes. Was he a cancer who didn't care and half-assed it? No. Did he come into Vancouver and dismantle a powerhouse team that had just made it to game seven of the SCF? No, that team already sucked. And if Messier is going to be blamed for dismantling this mythical Linden-led powerhouse (which, again, never actually existed) then he's probably the best GM Vancouver ever had because Bertuzzi, Naslund and Jovanovski were all brought in during his time there. And all those players credited Messier with having a postive effect on his development. But again, this is all irrelevant because there's no evidence that Messier exerted that kind of influence over Canck personnel moves.

And if he did... Well, Lemieux has been blamed for the Pens moving Zubov and Naslund in terrible deals. Its kind of funny that thats never brought up as 'tarnishing' his legacy while Messier's resume has been repeatedly attacked over GOOD trades that he may or may nt have had anything to do with.

His return to the Rangers was a nice PR story at the time but no one expected Messier to turn them around at that point. So he guaranteed the playoffs and it didnt happen. So what? What was he supposed to say? The Rangers were a mess before he got there, and remained a mess for about another decade. I fail to see how not being able to turn around that train-wreck at age 40 is a knock against one of the great careers in hockey. I watched a largely useless Yzerman captain Detroit to one of the great playoff upsets against Edmonton at a simar age. No one brings that up as tarnishing his legacy. All players decline with age. Strange that its only held against Messier.

Its really sad to see how some braying internet fanboys have managed to largely impact how a lot of people view one of the absolutely premier players of his or any era. If anything, Messier has become underrated by people buying into this Vancouver myth.

................

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Except none of this actually happened. This is an internet myth, and has been debunked time and time again.

Was Messier a declining player in Vancouver? Yes. Was he a cancer who didn't care and half-assed it? No. Did he come into Vancouver and dismantle a powerhouse team that had just made it to game seven of the SCF? No, that team already sucked. And if Messier is going to be blamed for dismantling this mythical Linden-led powerhouse (which, again, never actually existed) then he's probably the best GM Vancouver ever had because Bertuzzi, Naslund and Jovanovski were all brought in during his time there. And all those players credited Messier with having a postive effect on his development. But again, this is all irrelevant because there's no evidence that Messier exerted that kind of influence over Canck personnel moves.

And if he did... Well, Lemieux has been blamed for the Pens moving Zubov and Naslund in terrible deals. Its kind of funny that thats never brought up as 'tarnishing' his legacy while Messier's resume has been repeatedly attacked over GOOD trades that he may or may nt have had anything to do with.

His return to the Rangers was a nice PR story at the time but no one expected Messier to turn them around at that point. So he guaranteed the playoffs and it didnt happen. So what? What was he supposed to say? The Rangers were a mess before he got there, and remained a mess for about another decade. I fail to see how not being able to turn around that train-wreck at age 40 is a knock against one of the great careers in hockey. I watched a largely useless Yzerman captain Detroit to one of the great playoff upsets against Edmonton at a simar age. No one brings that up as tarnishing his legacy. All players decline with age. Strange that its only held against Messier.

Its really sad to see how some braying internet fanboys have managed to largely impact how a lot of people view one of the absolutely premier players of his or any era. If anything, Messier has become underrated by people buying into this Vancouver myth.

I believe this "myth" was around when Messier was still playing and I don't think I was doing much internet surfing in those days, yet I'd heard about it. It was really that coincidence that Tom Renney got fired 19 games into Messier's first season to be replaced by his former Rangers coach Mike Keenan that started the "myth" rolling.

What I recall about Messier was that after the Rangers' Cup win, he became God-like to the media. Writers were conjecturing that Messier was a greater factor in team success than Gretzky. After all, the Oilers won a Cup without the great one and Messier won with another team while Gretzky hadn't. He could do know wrong. It got to the point that whenever Messier didn't play well (especially in the playoffs) it was because he had an injury that would debilitate normal humans but Mess played through it (even though he would say he wasn't hurt).

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

I believe this "myth" was around when Messier was still playing and I don't think I was doing much internet surfing in those days, yet I'd heard about it. It was really that coincidence that Tom Renney got fired 19 games into Messier's first season to be replaced by his former Rangers coach Mike Keenan that started the "myth" rolling.

Well, in that sense, it started with Neilson getting fired in New York.

And the Renney firing was applauded from all sides at the time. He was viewed as a junior coach in over his head in the NHL. He brought in a 'no beer on charters' rule that rankled veterans. Bure and Mogilny were openly in revolt, taking two minute shifts to show their displeasure. Renney had to go, bottom line. If Messier had anything to do with it, it was like the Linden trade, the right move for the team.

And why is it that this kind of thing is ONLY held against Messier? You dont think Gretz in LA had a say in personnel moves? Lemieux in Pittsburgh? Yzerman in Detroit? Brodeur in New Jersey? Its not uncommon for an elite player with strong ties to management to have some sway on these things.

What I recall about Messier was that after the Rangers' Cup win, he became God-like to the media. Writers were conjecturing that Messier was a greater factor in team success than Gretzky. After all, the Oilers won a Cup without the great one and Messier won with another team while Gretzky hadn't. He could do know wrong. It got to the point that whenever Messier didn't play well (especially in the playoffs) it was because he had an injury that would debilitate normal humans but Mess played through it (even though he would say he wasn't hurt).

I don't recall Messier having too many bad playoffs, with the possible exception of 1997.

But if your theory is true, where is the backlash against Yzerman? Is there a player more surrounded in hyberbole than gritty, changed-his-game-to-win, super-captain Stevie Y?

I still maintain its this ridiculous internet view of Messier that has so completely obscured his impact and standing in the game.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

All time.. Steve Yzerman has to be the most overrated player of all time with not much doubt.

Right now it is easily Jarome Iginla.

Messier bashing is hilarious.. a man in his very late 30s in Vancouver and was still their best player on most nights... if he didn't miss 20 games in 99-00 the Canucks make the playoffs... I still think he should have retired as a Canuck instead of going back to New York.

But the damage was done after he was blamed for getting rid of Vancouver's favorite loser Trevor Linden.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well, in that sense, it started with Neilson getting fired in New York.

And the Renney firing was applauded from all sides at the time. He was viewed as a junior coach in over his head in the NHL. He brought in a 'no beer on charters' rule that rankled veterans. Bure and Mogilny were openly in revolt, taking two minute shifts to show their displeasure. Renney had to go, bottom line. If Messier had anything to do with it, it was like the Linden trade, the right move for the team.

And why is it that this kind of thing is ONLY held against Messier? You dont think Gretz in LA had a say in personnel moves? Lemieux in Pittsburgh? Yzerman in Detroit? Brodeur in New Jersey? Its not uncommon for an elite player with strong ties to management to have some sway on these things.

I don't recall Messier having too many bad playoffs, with the possible exception of 1997.

But if your theory is true, where is the backlash against Yzerman? Is there a player more surrounded in hyberbole than gritty, changed-his-game-to-win, super-captain Stevie Y?

I still maintain its this ridiculous internet view of Messier that has so completely obscured his impact and standing in the game.

I really don't know.

But I'd be really surprised if Yzerman or Brodeur did.

 

[thom]

I do respect Messier but how is it he missed playoffs in his last 6 years considering he is perceived as a great leader?

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

I do respect Messier but how is it he missed playoffs in his last 6 years considering he is perceived as a great leader?

why is Jarome Iginla considered a good leader then?

Has never won a cup, no showed in the biggest games of his life, has only got out of the first round once and now he can't even get his team to the playoffs.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I do respect Messier but how is it he missed playoffs in his last 6 years considering he is perceived as a great leader?

Because the teams he was on blew dead bear maybe?

 

[Hasbro]

Lindros.

Had a good but short run that didn't pan out to post-season success. Made his bad luck worse. Still rides his hype from before he even played.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

I really don't know.

But I'd be really surprised if Yzerman or Brodeur did.

I can't look for sources right now because I'm on my phone, but:

Isnt Broduer credited with pushing for the Devils in bring in Joe Nieuwendyk? In fact, I think Brodeur himself mentions this in his biography, because he was so impressed with Joe at Salt Lake. Also: Brodeur has been said to have endorsed the firing of John MacLean and the signing of Ilya Kovalchuk, has he not?

Yzerman: firing of Dave Lewis and bringing back Osgood.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

why is Jarome Iginla considered a good leader then?

Has never won a cup, no showed in the biggest games of his life has only got out of the first round once and now he can't even get his team to the playoffs.

2004? Salt Lake? Vancouver?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

All time.. Steve Yzerman has to be the most overrated player of all time with not much doubt.

Having a hard time accepting this one. Hard to under-rate a guy who isn't really lauded for his goal scoring, but lost "retro-Richard trophies" to the two very best goal scoring seasons of Brett Hull's career, missed out on an Art Ross to Wayne Gretzky, and never got post season all-star recognition at his peak due to playing in a league with Gretzky, Lemieux, and the very best of Messier and some other cats.

Post season all-star votes (centre) rankings:
'87/88: Gretzky, Lemieux, Savard (career season), Yzerman
'88/89: Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Nicholls
'89/90: Messier (Hart/Lindsay), Gretzky, Yzerman, Lemieux
'90/91: Gretzky, Oates (became only the 5th person in NHL history to record 90 assists), Sakic (almost 50 goals as a 21 year old), Yzerman
'91/92: Messier (Hart/Lindsay), Lemieux, Gretzky, Roenick (career season), Lafontaine (best hockey of his career imo, but only played 57 games), Yzerman
'92/93: Lemieux, Lafontaine (highest scoring season of career), Gilmour (career year), Oates (career year), Yzerman

and from there on it's more like the Fedorov show. But the point is, look at that 6 year list of names, and see which names pop in and out, and which ones are there from start to finish. Over that specific 6 year period of NHL history, Yzerman may have been the 3rd or 4th best player in the league behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and maybe Messier. I don't think any of the other names there can lay a competitive claim over a similarly substantial sample size (today is brought to you by the letter S).

Over a 6 consecutive year stretch, some of the best offensive players in history had to have the very best seasons of their careers to keep Yzerman out of award recognition, and I think he actually gets under-rated as a talent as a result (especially offensively). Maybe his leadership or defense in his early days gets over-rated (or over-stated), but it's kind of hard to over-rate him in "overall" terms; especially once a comparison is rounded out with all the career value "filler" (Cups, international play, intangibles, etc).

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

2004? Salt Lake? Vancouver?

I was thinking more in the line of the Stanley Cup Final.

I don't put much stock in 6 game tournaments like the Olympics.. and even in Vancouver he didn't do much.. made a pass to a wide open Crosby big deal... where was he the rest of that time? He did nothing (No wait.. he put up points against Norway and Germany..) he was benched for most of that "tournament"

 

[Stansfield*]

2004? Salt Lake? Vancouver?

2004 NHL playoffs
GP-26 G-13 A-9 PTS-22 +13

2004 Stanley Cup Finals
GP-7 G-3 A-2 PTS-5 +3

2002 Olympics
GP-7 G-3 A-1 PTS-4 +4
With 2 goals in the final

2010 Olympics
GP-7 G-5 A-2 PTS-7 +5
Assist on "golden goal"

It's amazing teams were able to win despite Iggys terrible play.

Bold: Led playoffs

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I can't look for sources right now because I'm on my phone, but:

Isnt Broduer credited with pushing for the Devils in bring in Joe Nieuwendyk? In fact, I think Brodeur himself mentions this in his biography, because he was so impressed with Joe at Salt Lake. Also: Brodeur has been said to have endorsed the firing of John MacLean and the signing of Ilya Kovalchuk, has he not?

Yzerman: firing of Dave Lewis and bringing back Osgood.

No one needed input for that one.

Endorsing a move is not the same as pushing for it. The original suggestion was that Messier was overstepping management, forcing moves.

Anyway, I'll admit I'm surprised about Yzerman & Brodeur.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

2004 NHL playoffs
GP-26 G-13 A-9 PTS-22 +13

2004 Stanley Cup Finals
GP-7 G-3 A-2 PTS-5 +3

2002 Olympics
GP-7 G-3 A-1 PTS-4 +4
With 2 goals in the final

2010 Olympics
GP-7 G-5 A-2 PTS-7 +5
Assist on "golden goal"

It's amazing teams were able to win despite Iggys terrible play.

Bold: Led playoffs

in a way, iginla might have had a luongo-esque stanley cup finals. he did all his scoring in calgary's three wins.

- shorthanded second period goal in the 4-1 game 1 win. put the flames up 2-0 and was the eventual game winner, fwiw. bulin makes the save on the SH breakaway, iginla follows up on the rebound at the side of the net and puts it in. it was one of those iconic, i'm the captain and i'm going to win this game for us moments.

- goal and an assist in the 3-0 game 3 win. PP assist on simon's second period goal that broke the 0-0 deadlock, then puts the game out of reach with his own PP goal.

- goal and an assist in the 3-2 game 5 win. scores the goal-ahead goal in the second period, and assists on saprykin's OT winner.

but on the other hand, he was the team's only real offensive force and he came up empty in the four games they lost. he didn't fall apart in those four games like luongo did in '11, but like luongo he was the horse that pulled the carriage in the games he did win.

but i agree, to a point. in games 6 and 7, up 3-2 in the finals, iginla should have found a way to be the difference, particularly as both were one goal games.

none of this is to say, however, that i think iginla is overrated, let alone one of the most overrated players of all time.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I can't look for sources right now because I'm on my phone, but:

Isnt Broduer credited with pushing for the Devils in bring in Joe Nieuwendyk? In fact, I think Brodeur himself mentions this in his biography, because he was so impressed with Joe at Salt Lake. Also: Brodeur has been said to have endorsed the firing of John MacLean and the signing of Ilya Kovalchuk, has he not?

Yzerman: firing of Dave Lewis and bringing back Osgood.

Speaking for Brodeur, yes, he has helped to orchestrate moves with Lamoriello. It seems as if he's almost an assistant GM at times. He takes his immense knowledge of the game and what's happening on the ice and reports directly to Lamoriello from what I understand.

The Devils are very tight-lipped about how things are run there, but from what we know, I wonder how many moves are made in the organization that Brodeur doesn't have at least a strong say in...very influential to Lamoriello.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Except none of this actually happened. This is an internet myth, and has been debunked time and time again.

Was Messier a declining player in Vancouver? Yes. Was he a cancer who didn't care and half-assed it? No.

Uhmm well yes he actually was a cancer and sure Mike Keenan and the ownership were problems too but Moose was more concerned about being top dog in that locker room and led to the trade of Linden (that ironically helped the team long run).

The Canucks were 77 and 79 point teams then with Moose 64,58 before going up to 83 in his last year.

Did he come into Vancouver and dismantle a powerhouse team that had just made it to game seven of the SCF? No, that team already sucked.

Read above they sucked more with the Moose

And if Messier is going to be blamed for dismantling this mythical Linden-led powerhouse (which, again, never actually existed) then he's probably the best GM Vancouver ever had because Bertuzzi, Naslund and Jovanovski were all brought in during his time there. And all those players credited Messier with having a postive effect on his development. But again, this is all irrelevant because there's no evidence that Messier exerted that kind of influence over Canck personnel moves.

Exactly what are those players going to say while on the team anyways?

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Uhmm well yes he actually was a cancer and sure Mike Keenan and the ownership were problems too but Moose was more concerned about being top dog in that locker room and led to the trade of Linden (that ironically helped the team long run).

The Canucks were 77 and 79 point teams then with Moose 64,58 before going up to 83 in his last year.




Read above they sucked more with the Moose



Exactly what are those players going to say while on the team anyways?

And this is the response I was eventually expecting. No fact, no numbers to back anything up. Just, 'Messier was a cancer, he hated Saint Linden, and he ruined the team'. This has become dogma in Vancouver and no amount of objective fact will ever change some minds.

The team standings you posted seem to show that the Canucks had their best year in five with Messier do they not? Not to mention the fact that Vancouver's record with Mess was far better than when he was injured and out of the lineup. AND those two terrible years coincide with Bure holding out and Linden and MacLean completely losing their games. Its disingenous to point to that say, 'see! Messier! Cancer!'

And I'll take those player quotes at face value since they coincide more with what we know about Messier everywhere else he played than the unsubstantiated Vancouver-based Messier was a cancer mythos.

The next step in this debate will be Nuck fans resorting to, 'whatever, man, you don't know what it was like to watch that team' and, 'you don't know what Linden meant to this city'.

 

[CJV123]

couple of names to throw into the early lists:

Roberto Luongo
Joe Thornton

and I concur with the spectacularly overrated "character guys":

Nieuwendyk
Roenick

 

[Stansfield*]

in a way, iginla might have had a luongo-esque stanley cup finals. he did all his scoring in calgary's three wins.

- shorthanded second period goal in the 4-1 game 1 win. put the flames up 2-0 and was the eventual game winner, fwiw. bulin makes the save on the SH breakaway, iginla follows up on the rebound at the side of the net and puts it in. it was one of those iconic, i'm the captain and i'm going to win this game for us moments.

- goal and an assist in the 3-0 game 3 win. PP assist on simon's second period goal that broke the 0-0 deadlock, then puts the game out of reach with his own PP goal.

- goal and an assist in the 3-2 game 5 win. scores the goal-ahead goal in the second period, and assists on saprykin's OT winner.

but on the other hand, he was the team's only real offensive force and he came up empty in the four games they lost. he didn't fall apart in those four games like luongo did in '11, but like luongo he was the horse that pulled the carriage in the games he did win.

but i agree, to a point. in games 6 and 7, up 3-2 in the finals, iginla should have found a way to be the difference, particularly as both were one goal games.

none of this is to say, however, that i think iginla is overrated, let alone one of the most overrated players of all time.

The difference being, when Luongo wasn't on his game he was a detriment to his team because he let in soft, deflating, momentum-swinging goals. Even when he didn't score Iginla was always a threat generating chances and contributing with physical play.

I'm gunna' go out on a limb and say that all players score less in their teams losses than wins. He was the only forward worth a darn on that team so all Tampa had to do was try to stop him and they'd win. If were going to draw parallells I'd say Iginla was David to Tampa Bays Goliath (except he loses of course), while Luongo was the heel to Vancouver's Achillies.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

No one needed input for that one.

Endorsing a move is not the same as pushing for it. The original suggestion was that Messier was overstepping management, forcing moves.

True about Lewis, but same can ve said for Renney in Vancouver. That wasn't a good fit, either.

Regardless, Mess wasn't unique in being high-profile player with some input into personnel moves. Whether he over-stepped is really just speculative, since there's no evidence to suggest he did. There's nothing to suggest he was more destructive or forced moves anymore than 99, 66 or 19 were or did. And, like I say, the moves he is accused of orchestrating worked out for the best so I don't why that's seen as a flaw on his resume (even if it were true).