HF Habs: The Martin Saint-Louis thread: Winning Streak Edition

[Lafleurs Guy]

What are they trying to accomplish ? Seeing the most mistakes Matheson can do?

HE'S THE MOST PLAYED PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE LMAO

Really though, i just wanna see the team get better.

Meanwhile:
No offensive progress from Guhle.
No progress from Harris, Struble.
Regression for Xhekaj, Barron and Caufield.
No ice-time to Roy, Ylonen, Heineman, RHP, Xhekaj.

I guess Suzuki, Slaf and Matheson progressed. We take the W's, I guess.

-It makes sense to play Matheson. He's a vet, racking up points and shielding younger players.

-Ghule is playing tougher minutes and learning how to be a first pair blueliner. He's developing just fine.

- Struble wasn't even in the league last year.

-As for Harris, Barron and X they're in the same boat as all our young blueliners. There are too many good prospects and not enough chairs. It's not ideal but not a coaching issue. As they take on more responsibility, the minutes will get harder. Development isn't a straight line. X for example was about to pound somebody the other day but stopped himself. They are learning as they go. And no, I don't think they've regressed.

- Caufield's underlying numbers are better than they've ever been. On track to get over 300 shots. With a decent shooting percentage he'd score 40. With a good percentage it'd be 50. If anything, he's actually taken a big step forward in his play. Just needs to find the net - not a coaching issue.

- I noticed you omitted Slaf. Why's that?

- Roy hasn't had ice time? He's like ten games into his career and on the 2nd line.

Bring back Therrien I guess...

Honestly, I don't want to hear the word 'rebuild' out of some of your mouths again. It's clear you guys don't understand what it actually means. You say you have the patience and will for it... but you don't.

 

[Mrb1p]

-It makes sense to play Matheson. He's a vet, racking up points and shielding younger players.

-Ghule is playing tougher minutes and learning how to be a first pair blueliner. He's developing just fine.

- Struble wasn't even in the league last year.

-As for Harris, Barron and X they're in the same boat as all our young blueliners. There are too many good prospects and not enough chairs. It's not ideal but not a coaching issue. As they take on more responsibility, the minutes will get harder. Development isn't a straight line. X for example was about to pound somebody the other day but stopped himself. They are learning as they go. And no, I don't think they've regressed.

- Caufield's underlying numbers are better than they've ever been. On track to get over 300 shots. With a decent shooting percentage he'd score 40. With a good percentage it'd be 50. If anything, he's actually taken a big step forward in his play. Just needs to find the net - not a coaching issue.

- I noticed you omitted Slaf. Why's that?

- Roy hasn't had ice time? He's like ten games into his career and on the 2nd line.

Bring back Therrien I guess...

Honestly, I don't want to hear the word 'rebuild' out of some of your mouths again. It's clear you guys don't understand what it actually means. You say you have the patience and will for it... but you don't.

It makes sense to shelter Matheson with the sophomore potential 1D playing his offside * You mean.

Realistically this excuse went out the window the moment they made this move.

They have regressed though, its clear as day. Xhekaj learning that his coach will scratch him if he plays physical isn't really development, it's him being smart and Martin being lame.

Not a coaching issue but when Caufield started scoring last year it was a coaching thing. Realistically, MSL is either not having an impact either way, or he is having one either way, in both senses, he's not the man for the job.

I didn't omit Slaf, he's getting better naturely.

Joshua roy hasn't played a second over 14:45 in the games he's played, he went over 13 minutes one other time. He doesn't get enough ice-time, theres no way around it. Stop moving the goalposts to catter to MSL, I know you were saying the exact same thing about Therrien and co, because I remember you saying it.

The goal would be to not bring back Therrien, or Julien, or Ducharme, but to actually have someone competent, something we haven't had since probably Martin his two years here.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It makes sense to shelter Matheson with the sophomore potential 1D playing his offside * You mean.

Realistically this excuse went out the window the moment they made this move.

Guhle is playing well in tough minutes. He's super young, getting points and has had some great games against some of the best players in the league. There's ZERO wrong with what we're doing there.

And NO, I don't want guys like Struble taking minutes against those lines. It makes way more sense to have Matheson do it. Yes, he gets torched. But he's also racking up points on an offensively starved team and doesn't figure into our long term plans. He's a stopgap.

They have regressed though, its clear as day. Xhekaj learning that his coach will scratch him if he plays physical isn't really development, it's him being smart and Martin being lame.

If he plays physical? Is this a joke?

X played the best game of his career the other night. And again, he stopped himself from getting into penalty trouble. Why? Because he's learned that he can't take stupid penalties.

Everyone loves the physical side. The dumb penalties? He needs to stay away from that. It's a very short sample but we've seen an improvement there.

Not a coaching issue but when Caufield started scoring last year it was a coaching thing. Realistically, MSL is either not having an impact either way, or he is having one either way, in both senses, he's not the man for the job.

Not sure what you don't understand here...

Caufield is playing the best hockey of his career. Shots are up. Passing is good. Those are things that you can COACH. MSL is not going to be able to make MSL shoot at 9 percent instead of 14...

And YES it was a coaching difference between him and DD. He actually gave CC the opportunity to go out and score. 312 shots. That's what he's on pace for at 23 years old. That would dwarf Pacciorretty's best season and CC's just getting started.

The results aren't there and it's a disappointing season for CC. But that's due to one thing: shooting percentage.

I didn't omit Slaf, he's getting better naturely.

Well, you didn't include him. That means you omitted him.

As for him getting better 'naturally', MSL has had a large hand in it. At the most fundamental level, Hughes was about to send him down. MSL asked to keep him up and moved him up in the lineup. He wasn't shooting enough... now his shots are up.

Credit Slaf for being 'coachable' but credit MSL for doing the coaching.

Btw, go read the Kirby Dach interview where he credits MSL for resuscitating his career.

Joshua roy hasn't played a second over 14:45 in the games he's played, he went over 13 minutes one other time. He doesn't get enough ice-time, theres no way around it.

He's TEN games into his career! He came in as an injury replacement for pete's sakes.

Stop moving the goalposts to catter to MSL, I know you were saying the exact same thing about Therrien and co, because I remember you saying it.

Therrien played DD at first line center for YEARS. You don't see the difference here? Between a miscast first line player who played there for years vs a guy who's ten games in?

Seriously?

The goal would be to not bring back Therrien, or Julien, or Ducharme, but to actually have someone competent, something we haven't had since probably Martin his two years here.

Martin employed the trap. Want that? We can just ask MSL to implement it.

No thanks btw.

 

[JurequeparJuraj]

St-Louis knowledge of hockey is HUGE... every journalist and poster here would look like a clown talking hockey technicality and devellopement with him.

Keep the guy another decade please.

 

[hvac412]

St-Louis knowledge of hockey is HUGE... every journalist and poster here would look like a clown talking hockey technicality and devellopement with him.

Keep the guy another decade please.

There's a difference between hockey knowledge and coaching knowledge,One of the all time greats "Gretzky" couldn't coach or run a team.

 

[Captain Mountain]

What are they trying to accomplish ? Seeing the most mistakes Matheson can do?

HE'S THE MOST PLAYED PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE LMAO

Really though, i just wanna see the team get better.

Meanwhile:
No offensive progress from Guhle.
No progress from Harris, Struble.
Regression for Xhekaj, Barron and Caufield.
No ice-time to Roy, Ylonen, Heineman, RHP, Xhekaj.

I guess Suzuki, Slaf and Matheson progressed. We take the W's, I guess.

I'd point out that:

-Guhle's lack of offensive progress was/is actually somewhat expected given his usage and how lucky he was last year.
-Struble is a rookie and played 9 pro games in the AHL last season. There is no rational argument that there hasn't been progress.
-When accounting for usage and situations, there isn't much argument that Xhekaj, Barron or Caufield aren't better this season than last, unless you're overrating boxcar stats. Caufield especially, Xhekaj clearly and Barron slightly.
-Roy has been getting ice-time. So has Xhekaj lately. Ylonen, RHP and Heineman haven't earned more ice-time.

I'll definitely criticize certain things MSL does and has done, but the lack of context (of being in a rebuild and relative to other teams) is kind of jarring. This is what rebuilding has always looked like.

 

[JurequeparJuraj]

There's a difference between hockey knowledge and coaching knowledge,One of the all time greats "Gretzky" couldn't coach or run a team.

Yeah I agree but still.. this team is total sh*t. Half of the fowards group are not NHLER to me ... and it's about one third of the group for defensemans... our players are so bad..it's atrocious.

It's not on Martin.

 

[Mrb1p]

Guhle is playing well in tough minutes. He's super young, getting points and has had some great games against some of the best players in the league. There's ZERO wrong with what we're doing there.

And NO, I don't want guys like Struble taking minutes against those lines. It makes way more sense to have Matheson do it. Yes, he gets torched. But he's also racking up points on an offensively starved team and doesn't figure into our long term plans. He's a stopgap.

If he plays physical? Is this a joke?

X played the best game of his career the other night. And again, he stopped himself from getting into penalty trouble. Why? Because he's learned that he can't take stupid penalties.

Everyone loves the physical side. The dumb penalties? He needs to stay away from that. It's a very short sample but we've seen an improvement there.

Not sure what you don't understand here...

Caufield is playing the best hockey of his career. Shots are up. Passing is good. Those are things that you can COACH. MSL is not going to be able to make MSL shoot at 9 percent instead of 14...

And YES it was a coaching difference between him and DD. He actually gave CC the opportunity to go out and score. 312 shots. That's what he's on pace for at 23 years old. That would dwarf Pacciorretty's best season and CC's just getting started.

The results aren't there and it's a disappointing season for CC. But that's due to one thing: shooting percentage.

Well, you didn't include him. That means you omitted him.

As for him getting better 'naturally', MSL has had a large hand in it. At the most fundamental level, Hughes was about to send him down. MSL asked to keep him up and moved him up in the lineup. He wasn't shooting enough... now his shots are up.

Credit Slaf for being 'coachable' but credit MSL for doing the coaching.

Btw, go read the Kirby Dach interview where he credits MSL for resuscitating his career.

He's TEN games into his career! He came in as an injury replacement for pete's sakes.

Therrien played DD at first line center for YEARS. You don't see the difference here? Between a miscast first line player who played there for years vs a guy who's ten games in?

Seriously?

Martin employed the trap. Want that? We can just ask MSL to implement it.

No thanks btw.

Again, Guhle plays really well because he's good, but he is the one sheltering Matheson, its not the other way around. Stop with this excuse. We purposely moved our 21 YO future top pair D to his offside because Matheson needs someone that can baby sit him. It's ridiculous that you're trying to claim he's there to insulate the youngsters.

What would make sense is to have Guhle play the Matheson role and have Matheson actually cover for Guhle at ES, not the other way around. Thats not what theyre doing.

Stop with this, you repeat yourself over and over and you'r ewrong.

Xhekaj had the best game of his career yet he played 16 minutes.

Therrien played DD at first line center for YEARS. You don't see the difference here? Between a miscast first line player who played there for years vs a guy who's ten games in?
This right there, is comedy gold. Matheson, Guhle. Whoever you thought DD was playing ahead of and DD himself.

Do you not see the conundruum you have created for yourself here ? Literally every thing you say comes back and bites you in the ass, drop it.

Martin had his problems, like over-reliance on grinders but lets be honest, he was a tactical mastermind compared to MSL.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Can only imagine the anger here if we hired Torts and was pushing this team up artificially with a systems only approach.

This thread is proof that the fan base will turn on anyone at any time for any reason and has not once truly grasped what a rebuild is.

 

[Mrb1p]

I'd point out that:

-Guhle's lack of offensive progress was/is actually somewhat expected given his usage and how lucky he was last year.
-Struble is a rookie and played 9 pro games in the AHL last season. There is no rational argument that there hasn't been progress.
-When accounting for usage and situations, there isn't much argument that Xhekaj, Barron or Caufield aren't better this season than last, unless you're overrating boxcar stats. Caufield especially, Xhekaj clearly and Barron slightly.
-Roy has been getting ice-time. So has Xhekaj lately. Ylonen, RHP and Heineman haven't earned more ice-time.

I'll definitely criticize certain things MSL does and has done, but the lack of context (of being in a rebuild and relative to other teams) is kind of jarring. This is what rebuilding has always l

I mean, yes thats the point for Guhle. He's being heavily relied upon to shelter his vet teammate. Instead of being put in a position to actually develop his offense. While Guhle was lucky last year, he had an extremely high number of 5V5 primary points and only 3 A3, which inherently should've gone up. (It has swinged the other way and he now has 5 A2 to 5 A1.) No one can see Guhle play last year and tell me his offensive game developped.
A rookie can still stagnate during a season. Jayden came in looking solid and he's somehow just tapered off now.

How is Barron better ? He's literally been worse and sent down because of how horrible he was, he's effectively busting. Thats hilarious.

Earning ice-time shouldn't be a concept for future assets, especially not when theres players like Gallagher, Anderson, Armia, Pearson, Evans, Pezzeta on the team. Roy has been playing 13 mintues or less every game, thats Georges Laraque numbers.

 

[salbutera]

Can only imagine the anger here if we hired Torts and was pushing this team up artificially with a systems only approach.

This thread is proof that the fan base will turn on anyone at any time for any reason and has not once truly grasped what a rebuild is.

The reason why Habs ownership has been unwilling to go down this path because the fanbase..

 

[Mrb1p]

Can only imagine the anger here if we hired Torts and was pushing this team up artificially with a systems only approach.

This thread is proof that the fan base will turn on anyone at any time for any reason and has not once truly grasped what a rebuild is.

There would be no difference as the players would be used in the same way.

In fact, Torts is putting more trust in his young players than MSL is.

York is the 2nd most used D. Konecny, Foerster, Farabee, Tippett, Frost and Brink are all playing 14+ minutes a game.
Guys like Hathaway, Staal, Deslaurier, Cates and Seeler are all under 16 minutes.

On top of that, theyre actually winning and getting better/progressing/learning to play actual hockey instead of some weird philosophical bullshit to woo the masses.

 

[Mrb1p]

The reason why Habs ownership has been unwilling to go down this path because the fanbase..

View attachment 826045

The team has been sucking for thirty years, stop that.

Fans are tired of being the joke of the league. If the Leafs haven't won since 67, we haven't been competitive since 1993. Its ridiculous how far the Habs have fallen in the pecking order. I have a greying beard, not a single hair on my head and my knees make more noise than rice krispies yet I haven't seen a single iteration of this team be competitive. Not a single one. Not once have I said "You know this team is top 5 in the league and we could beat anybody."

Thank god for Price because we would've literally been worse than the Coyotes had it not be for him.

 

[Shutdown]

There would be no difference as the players would be used in the same way.

In fact, Torts is putting more trust in his young players than MSL is.

York is the 2nd most used D. Konecny, Foerster, Farabee, Tippett, Frost and Brink are all playing 14+ minutes a game.
Guys like Hathaway, Staal, Deslaurier, Cates and Seeler are all under 16 minutes.

On top of that, theyre actually winning and getting better/progressing/learning to play actual hockey instead of some weird philosophical bullshit to woo the masses.

all 2-6 years older than Roy who is being used like Slaf last year. nothing wrong with his usage.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I mean, yes thats the point for Guhle. He's being heavily relied upon to shelter his vet teammate. Instead of being put in a position to actually develop his offense. While Guhle was lucky last year, he had an extremely high number of 5V5 primary points and only 3 A3, which inherently should've gone up. (It has swinged the other way and he now has 5 A2 to 5 A1.) No one can see Guhle play last year and tell me his offensive game developped.
A rookie can still stagnate during a season. Jayden came in looking solid and he's somehow just tapered off now.

How is Barron better ? He's literally been worse and sent down because of how horrible he was, he's effectively busting. Thats hilarious.

Earning ice-time shouldn't be a concept for future assets, especially not when theres players like Gallagher, Anderson, Armia, Pearson, Evans, Pezzeta on the team. Roy has been playing 13 mintues or less every game, thats Georges Laraque numbers.

Matheson has a (slightly) higher QoC than Guhle and a slightly higher offensive zone usage. You can't credibly make an argument that either is sheltering the other. And the idea that "[w]e purposely moved our 21 YO future top pair D to his offside because Matheson needs someone that can baby sit him" is pretty strange. Montreal moved Guhle to his off-side because he can play there, Montreal had a L/R imbalance on D with Barron in the AHL, and Guhle deserves and can play lots of minutes.

Matheson is playing PP because he's straight up better there right now. So is Barron and I would argue Xhekaj. Its not a knock on Guhle, he's still a work in progress and was never projected as a PP1 D anyways. Matheson (and Savard) also eat PK minutes for the young D. Which is why Guhle leads the Habs in 5v5 TOI/GP.

What happened to Struble literally happens all the time with call ups. They look good at first, but start to taper off. This isn't even just a hockey thing, a lot of what doing a job is about finding an equilibrium since you can't go 100% all the time. He was never going to sustain what he was doing when first called up.

From this season to last, Barron had a higher rate of goals, shots, expected goals, shot attempts, fewer giveaways, better on ice stats (both real and expected) while facing tougher competition. He was sent down to work on specific things, the same as Xhekaj. The idea that he's "effectively busting" is ridiculously reactionary considering he's 22 and half of his cohorts don't look any better.

And I'm sorry, you cannot have such a childish view of the NHL and hockey in general to think "[e]arning ice-time shouldn't be a concept for future assets". This is the real world, guys have to earn their ice time. Evans gets extreme Dzone deployment and is a center which none of those young guys are, Armia has earned his ice-time back from being waived, Gallagher is still overcriticized based on being overpaid compared to what he brings (and he and Armia don't even play much more than other guys), Pearson plays around the same at 5v5 as Roy and RHP, Pezz plays like 7 and a half minutes 5v5 a game.

You want to complain about there not being enough structure and that some guys will look lost at times playing to concepts? I'd agree. You want to criticize how passive the PK can be? I'm right there. But I suspect that the organization isn't that concerned about things mid-rebuild. And nothing MSL has done ice-time wise comes close to justifiying this reaction and just seems needlessly nitpicky. Montreal's rebuilding and under the hood the progress is clear. Its just that the organization was so far off that its going to take a while to get to where they want to be, especially with the injuries and lack of depth.

The reason why Habs ownership has been unwilling to go down this path because the fanbase..

View attachment 826045

Honestly, I think the fanbase at large has handled it well, but some posters that advocated tanking are realizing what that actually means.

 

[Captain Mountain]

all 2-6 years older than Roy who is being used like Slaf last year. nothing wrong with his usage.

And if one were take the inverse view, then they'd say the same about Slaf, Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle and Newhook. And why is Cam York playing so much less than Sanheim! Walker playing more than Drysdale? Torts ust be awful to play Laughton more than Brink and Cates!

 

[Sorinth]

Some interesting stats comparing this year to last year for Guhle
His giveaways have from 3.38 to 1.80 which yeah the stat can be misleading but does match the eye test of him not being outmatched/pushed off the puck as easily as he was last year. Although it's still an area where he needs to improve on.
His on ice SV% has gone from 88.06 to 90.83, yet Montembeault & Allen's SV% are basically identical this year to last year (+0.1%), we also see Guhle's GF% go up 6% compared to last year, his SAT% go up 3% and this is with his OZ% going down 4%. So he's clearly doing a better job defensively then he was last year. Which again matches the eye test, last year he was basically drowning because of a lack of depth and not being ready to go up against the NHL's elite players. This year he's still having some struggles but has been doing better.

So the talk of him not improving really seems weird. He hasn't established himself as a legit top pairing guy yet, but he's improved. It very much seems like a case of changing expectations and not actual play. Last year nobody knew what to expect so even though he was drowning playing on the top pair it still exceed expectations, this year expectations are that he's a potential top pairing guy so his struggles are no longer ignored but blown out of proportion.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Matheson has a (slightly) higher QoC than Guhle and a slightly higher offensive zone usage. You can't credibly make an argument that either is sheltering the other. And the idea that "[w]e purposely moved our 21 YO future top pair D to his offside because Matheson needs someone that can baby sit him" is pretty strange. Montreal moved Guhle to his off-side because he can play there, Montreal had a L/R imbalance on D with Barron in the AHL, and Guhle deserves and can play lots of minutes.

Matheson is playing PP because he's straight up better there right now. So is Barron and I would argue Xhekaj. Its not a knock on Guhle, he's still a work in progress and was never projected as a PP1 D anyways. Matheson (and Savard) also eat PK minutes for the young D. Which is why Guhle leads the Habs in 5v5 TOI/GP.

What happened to Struble literally happens all the time with call ups. They look good at first, but start to taper off. This isn't even just a hockey thing, a lot of what doing a job is about finding an equilibrium since you can't go 100% all the time. He was never going to sustain what he was doing when first called up.

From this season to last, Barron had a higher rate of goals, shots, expected goals, shot attempts, fewer giveaways, better on ice stats (both real and expected) while facing tougher competition. He was sent down to work on specific things, the same as Xhekaj. The idea that he's "effectively busting" is ridiculously reactionary considering he's 22 and half of his cohorts don't look any better.

And I'm sorry, you cannot have such a childish view of the NHL and hockey in general to think "[e]arning ice-time shouldn't be a concept for future assets". This is the real world, guys have to earn their ice time. Evans gets extreme Dzone deployment and is a center which none of those young guys are, Armia has earned his ice-time back from being waived, Gallagher is still overcriticized based on being overpaid compared to what he brings (and he and Armia don't even play much more than other guys), Pearson plays around the same at 5v5 as Roy and RHP, Pezz plays like 7 and a half minutes 5v5 a game.

You want to complain about there not being enough structure and that some guys will look lost at times playing to concepts? I'd agree. You want to criticize how passive the PK can be? I'm right there. But I suspect that the organization isn't that concerned about things mid-rebuild. And nothing MSL has done ice-time wise comes close to justifiying this reaction and just seems needlessly nitpicky. Montreal's rebuilding and under the hood the progress is clear. Its just that the organization was so far off that its going to take a while to get to where they want to be, especially with the injuries and lack of depth.



Honestly, I think the fanbase at large has handled it well, but some posters that advocated tanking are realizing what that actually means.

It’s really hard to know where the coaching begins and the roster limitations end. A passive PK for example-is that what’s being instructed or are we just flat out overmatched?

I don’t really think it matters, we’re going to get smoked. The only thing I think that would make a real difference is the trap.

 

[1909]

There's a difference between hockey knowledge and coaching knowledge,One of the all time greats "Gretzky" couldn't coach or run a team.

And Maurice Richard, neither.

 

[1909]

This actual team is weaker than the one we had which went to the COVID Cup vs TB. The card castle collapsed with the departure of Weber and Price, and in a certain extent with Danault, Tatar and KK living, + the trades that sent away Lehkonen and Toffoli (and a healthy and young Romanov). Of course Bergevin left behind him a heavy pile of pure expensive garbages.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Again, Guhle plays really well because he's good, but he is the one sheltering Matheson, its not the other way around. Stop with this excuse. We purposely moved our 21 YO future top pair D to his offside because Matheson needs someone that can baby sit him. It's ridiculous that you're trying to claim he's there to insulate the youngsters.

What would make sense is to have Guhle play the Matheson role and have Matheson actually cover for Guhle at ES, not the other way around. Thats not what theyre doing.

Honestly... who cares?

I don't care what side Guhle is on. He might be doing this now so he can stay on the right side going forward. I really don't give a shit as long as he develops.

And YES, Matheson is sheltering other players. Who else do you want on the top pairing? Struble? X? Harris? Joshua Roy?

Stop with this, you repeat yourself over and over and you'r ewrong.

Xhekaj had the best game of his career yet he played 16 minutes.

Okay, by all means quibble with what I said. He played a great game. Best he's had in a long time. And he employed the lessons he learned and avoided staying out of the box like he normally would.

Better now?

Therrien played DD at first line center for YEARS. You don't see the difference here? Between a miscast first line player who played there for years vs a guy who's ten games in?
This right there, is comedy gold. Matheson, Guhle. Whoever you thought DD was playing ahead of and DD himself.

??????

Do you not see the conundruum you have created for yourself here ? Literally every thing you say comes back and bites you in the ass, drop it.

David Desharnais was used in a top line role in 2014, 2015 and 2016. He wasn't sheltering anyone, he was blocking better players.

How is it that you don't understand this? You think Struble's a better blueliner than Matheson right now? He's not. Moreover, he's a developing young player. It would hurt him to put him in a higher role. Why wouldn't we use the vet while we're getting smoked? Matheson's a fully developed player and racking up points. There's no development to really do with him and he's not in our longterm plans. It makes perfect sense to use him where he is.

Martin had his problems, like over-reliance on grinders but lets be honest, he was a tactical mastermind compared to MSL.

He employed the trap. We can do that now if we want to and it would make us better in the short term. But it would be awful for development. Not only that but we'd rise a few games in the standings. And then you'd be freaking out about that.

Dude, you were right there with me calling for a rebuild for years. This is what you asked for.

 

[dauv]

There's a difference between hockey knowledge and coaching knowledge,One of the all time

Matheson has a (slightly) higher QoC than Guhle and a slightly higher offensive zone usage. You can't credibly make an argument that either is sheltering the other. And the idea that "[w]e purposely moved our 21 YO future top pair D to his offside because Matheson needs someone that can baby sit him" is pretty strange. Montreal moved Guhle to his off-side because he can play there, Montreal had a L/R imbalance on D with Barron in the AHL, and Guhle deserves and can play lots of minutes.

Matheson is playing PP because he's straight up better there right now. So is Barron and I would argue Xhekaj. Its not a knock on Guhle, he's still a work in progress and was never projected as a PP1 D anyways. Matheson (and Savard) also eat PK minutes for the young D. Which is why Guhle leads the Habs in 5v5 TOI/GP.

What happened to Struble literally happens all the time with call ups. They look good at first, but start to taper off. This isn't even just a hockey thing, a lot of what doing a job is about finding an equilibrium since you can't go 100% all the time. He was never going to sustain what he was doing when first called up.

From this season to last, Barron had a higher rate of goals, shots, expected goals, shot attempts, fewer giveaways, better on ice stats (both real and expected) while facing tougher competition. He was sent down to work on specific things, the same as Xhekaj. The idea that he's "effectively busting" is ridiculously reactionary considering he's 22 and half of his cohorts don't look any better.

And I'm sorry, you cannot have such a childish view of the NHL and hockey in general to think "[e]arning ice-time shouldn't be a concept for future assets". This is the real world, guys have to earn their ice time. Evans gets extreme Dzone deployment and is a center which none of those young guys are, Armia has earned his ice-time back from being waived, Gallagher is still overcriticized based on being overpaid compared to what he brings (and he and Armia don't even play much more than other guys), Pearson plays around the same at 5v5 as Roy and RHP, Pezz plays like 7 and a half minutes 5v5 a game.

You want to complain about there not being enough structure and that some guys will look lost at times playing to concepts? I'd agree. You want to criticize how passive the PK can be? I'm right there. But I suspect that the organization isn't that concerned about things mid-rebuild. And nothing MSL has done ice-time wise comes close to justifiying this reaction and just seems needlessly nitpicky. Montreal's rebuilding and under the hood the progress is clear. Its just that the organization was so far off that its going to take a while to get to where they want to be, especially with the injuries and lack of depth.



Honestly, I think the fanbase at large has handled it well, but some posters that advocated tanking are realizing what that actually means.

well said

 

[LaP]

Can only imagine the anger here if we hired Torts and was pushing this team up artificially with a systems only approach.

This thread is proof that the fan base will turn on anyone at any time for any reason and has not once truly grasped what a rebuild is.

Thank god we don't have Tort as a coach. Only reason Flyers are in da playoffs is because of how weak the Metropolitan depth is with NJ having a down year and Caps / Pens both being old team on the decline. Among the teams currently in the playoffs they have the least amount of RW and the 2nd lowest P% record. They are 18th in G, 12th in GA and 16th in GF / GA differential right above Calgary.

They have some good pieces notably in defense but their prospects pool looks pretty empty and they will draft low and have absolutely no chance to go far in playoffs if they make it (far from certain since they have been playing for about 500 for a while but Caps and Pens might sell so ...). I'm perfectly fine with St Louis not artificially inflating our record short term by implementing a grinding system.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

If we had Tortorella he might've increased Pearson's value to a 7th rounder in 2025 if we retained 50% on him.

It is a shame that MSL is more focused on younger players who have futures here, rather than trying to boost players like Gallagher/Anderson/Evans/Armia's stats so one of them can break 25 points.

 

[Mrb1p]

Matheson has a (slightly) higher QoC than Guhle and a slightly higher offensive zone usage. You can't credibly make an argument that either is sheltering the other. And the idea that "[w]e purposely moved our 21 YO future top pair D to his offside because Matheson needs someone that can baby sit him" is pretty strange. Montreal moved Guhle to his off-side because he can play there, Montreal had a L/R imbalance on D with Barron in the AHL, and Guhle deserves and can play lots of minutes.

Matheson is playing PP because he's straight up better there right now. So is Barron and I would argue Xhekaj. Its not a knock on Guhle, he's still a work in progress and was never projected as a PP1 D anyways. Matheson (and Savard) also eat PK minutes for the young D. Which is why Guhle leads the Habs in 5v5 TOI/GP.

What happened to Struble literally happens all the time with call ups. They look good at first, but start to taper off. This isn't even just a hockey thing, a lot of what doing a job is about finding an equilibrium since you can't go 100% all the time. He was never going to sustain what he was doing when first called up.

From this season to last, Barron had a higher rate of goals, shots, expected goals, shot attempts, fewer giveaways, better on ice stats (both real and expected) while facing tougher competition. He was sent down to work on specific things, the same as Xhekaj. The idea that he's "effectively busting" is ridiculously reactionary considering he's 22 and half of his cohorts don't look any better.

And I'm sorry, you cannot have such a childish view of the NHL and hockey in general to think "[e]arning ice-time shouldn't be a concept for future assets". This is the real world, guys have to earn their ice time. Evans gets extreme Dzone deployment and is a center which none of those young guys are, Armia has earned his ice-time back from being waived, Gallagher is still overcriticized based on being overpaid compared to what he brings (and he and Armia don't even play much more than other guys), Pearson plays around the same at 5v5 as Roy and RHP, Pezz plays like 7 and a half minutes 5v5 a game.

You want to complain about there not being enough structure and that some guys will look lost at times playing to concepts? I'd agree. You want to criticize how passive the PK can be? I'm right there. But I suspect that the organization isn't that concerned about things mid-rebuild. And nothing MSL has done ice-time wise comes close to justifiying this reaction and just seems needlessly nitpicky. Montreal's rebuilding and under the hood the progress is clear. Its just that the organization was so far off that its going to take a while to get to where they want to be, especially with the injuries and lack of depth.



Honestly, I think the fanbase at large has handled it well, but some posters that advocated tanking are realizing what that actually means.

You get lost in your stats so often I rarely read you. Why wasn't Matheson the one that moved to the right side ? Why was it the 21 yo sophomore ? Thus, sheletering Matheson. It's a pretty simple concept, you'd don't need to raise their QOC, they've been playing the same pair for 10+ games now.

How can you say that Matheson, Barron and Xhekaj are better if Guhle hasn't gotten an opportunity there ?

Guhle leads the team in 5V5 points right now, despite playing tougher minutes than everyone (Playing RD is inherently tougher for him than Matheson on the LD on the same pair, and Im not even going to comment on playing with the great Matheson himself.), yet, he's worse than these three ?

I also cannot take you seriously if you believe Barron looked better this year than last. I am a huge fan of his, and Xhekaj too, but both were clearly worse this year than they were last year. Heck, neither Barron nor Xhekaj even looked good in the AHL this year, Xhekaj stabilized his game a little but Barron was effectively one of the worse defender on the ice for the two games I watched this week-end, in the AHL.

Again, you get lost in your stats and it makes you hard to read.