The Management Thread | White Hole Edition

[Hit the post]

So far it hasn't happened. Demko did credit him for streamlining his mental preparation for games. But in-game I don't see a lot of progress.

If there was an actual preseason, I’m thinking there would be a more of an effect. But, as always in goaltending matters, I defer to your better judgment (goalie stuff).

 

[Hit the post]

it's NOT Batman!

 

[valkynax]

on a side note I did really like Keaton as the Vulture.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I mentioned this earlier but it still boggles the mind that with all of 1) a flat cap, 2) limited room, 3) ownership tightening the purse strings...Jim Benning *still* managed to add a terrible contract (at least one!) to the roster.

 

[tantalum]

I mean this is what I said...

Demko has in no way proven himself. He had some fantastic games in the playoffs, but his is a couple years removed from a low starters workload in the AHL. His play outside of a massive playoff surprise wasn’t that great this year and when Markstrom went down earlier in the year I don’t think he handled the workload very well.

It is unlikely that a Demko-? Pairing is going to be as good as a Markstrom-Demko pairing. The Canucks will take a hit if they let Markstrom walk. And it’s a hit they can ill afford to take if the last three seasons have taught us anything.

I understand sometimes you need to roll the dice a bit, but this is a self inflicted gamble that could blow up in their faces. How badly? Well sounds like the Flames are likely to make a big run at him if he hits free agency. To me this isn’t Schneider vs Luonngo. Demko hasn’t really shown he’s a top back up in the league let alone the heir apparent.
Of course at that age neither had Markstrom! I get that. It’s just a silly risk they’ve been forced into. Getting out of a cap jam shouldn’t cost you the guy who is arguably your most important player the last two years. Especially when the contract isn’t Likely to be that bad.​

I also made a comment in another thread before Covid that it was concerning that Mossey wasn’t seeing progression in Demko’s game since the start of the year. Here we are a year later and that still appears to be the case. We do need to start seeing progression.​

 

[m9]

Honestly I’d like anyone trying to defend the markstrom move this past season to put it into context of what bennings actual plan is/has been for the last 18 months?

like are we competing for the playoffs and more? Are we rebuilding? Are we throwing poop at a wall and seeing what sticks???

I know which one I think it is

His plan last year was to go all-in and save his job. I don't know if he had a plan past that.

 

[F A N]

Benning targeted Holtby because he was good 3-4 years ago and won a cup. That's why.

Yes people were, and why would your appeal to supposed authorities like Clark and Woodley, and to non-authorities like internet posters be worth much of a response?

We have facts (ages, detailed stats of past performances, effect of aging on performance, comparable contracts, past practice with respect to contracts as players progress from ELC to RFA to UFA, cap structures of the team and all other teams, and the knowledge that linear time will keep advancing) and we have the structure of reason and logic to form worthwhile arguments.

So logical fallacies like appeals to authorities or appeal to the mob just seem like mailing it in.

Huh? Ian Clark is the Canucks goaltending coach. It has been widely reported and confirmed by Benning himself that in the past he's simply asked Clark for a list of goalies to target. There's no reason for me to think that Benning went against Clark's recommendations and signed Holtby.

Holtby was coming off a career worst season but I think goaltending coaches focus more on whether the issues the goalie is having is fixable. There were reports that the Canucks were interested in Khudobin as well but he re-signed with Dallas for 3 years.

 

[Canucker]

I mean this is what I said...

I also made a comment in another thread before Covid that it was concerning that Mossey wasn’t seeing progression in Demko’s game since the start of the year. Here we are a year later and that still appears to be the case. We do need to start seeing progression.​

For me, I think Demko is doing alright...its hard to really flourish with the crap defense thats been happening in front of both of the goalies...I don't think it was realistic to think he was going to carry on his play from the playoffs as many thought he would, or that he'd just snatch the reigns from Marky without missing a beat...but he's still finding his way and this is a good year to fight through some adversity and learn the ups and downs of being an NHL starter. I'm not going to rail on him for not stealing any games, as many have seemed to get on him for lately...I don't see anyone on our team "stealing" any games, so I'm not going to single Demko out for not doing it. From all accounts he's hard working, coachable and a student of the craft...I think he'll be fine.

 

[I am toxic]

Huh? Ian Clark is the Canucks goaltending coach. It has been widely reported and confirmed by Benning himself that in the past he's simply asked Clark for a list of goalies to target. There's no reason for me to think that Benning went against Clark's recommendations and signed Holtby.

Holtby was coming off a career worst season but I think goaltending coaches focus more on whether the issues the goalie is having is fixable. There were reports that the Canucks were interested in Khudobin as well but he re-signed with Dallas for 3 years.

Huh? I just mentioned appeal to authority.

So let's ignore logical fallacies for a moment, and just go take a look at Holtby's SV%.

2018-2019 .911
2019-2020 .897
2021 to date .885

Well, that's not good.

So, when people in the offseason said that signing Holtby was a stupid move, regardless of whether he was on Clark's approved list or not, were kinda . . . well, let's put it this way. They didn't need to wait and see.

 

[tantalum]

For me, I think Demko is doing alright...its hard to really flourish with the crap defense thats been happening in front of both of the goalies...I don't think it was realistic to think he was going to carry on his play from the playoffs as many thought he would, or that he'd just snatch the reigns from Marky without missing a beat...but he's still finding his way and this is a good year to fight through some adversity and learn the ups and downs of being an NHL starter. I'm not going to rail on him for not stealing any games, as many have seemed to get on him for lately...I don't see anyone on our team "stealing" any games, so I'm not going to single Demko out for not doing it. From all accounts he's hard working, coachable and a student of the craft...I think he'll be fine.

He’s not doing fine when you account for the poor defense. That’s the issue right now. His development has been stagnant for over a year at this point and it is rightly a concern.

Hard working, coachable and student of the craft describes 98% of NHL players. That’s an amazingly low bar to offer up as praise.

Now I don’t hate Demko or anything and he could very well take off like a rocket at some point but those far his play in the NHL has been sub-par overall and that was a concern in the off season and remains one.

 

[tantalum]

Huh? I just mentioned appeal to authority.

So let's ignore logical fallacies for a moment, and just go take a look at Holtby's SV%.

2018-2019 .911
2019-2020 .897
2021 to date .885

Well, that's not good.

So, when people in the offseason said that signing Holtby was a stupid move, regardless of whether he was on Clark's approved list or not, were kinda . . . well, let's put it this way. They didn't need to wait and see.

As well, Clark isn’t going to say “Holtby and I would sign him for 2 years at $4+ mil a year”. It’s going to be “Holtby might be an option and a decent one with his experience. We can work with him to make some changes and bring up his play”. I’m also sure there are going to be multiple guys on any list and one doesn’t know where players are on that list...#1 or #15.

 

[tyhee]

NOBODY thinks/thought Holtby was the goaltender from 2016-2017, the deal he accepted is literal proof of that. Nobody signs a short term deal with a team that already had a young starter theyre grooming and approves being expansion eligible. Its a show me deal (or in this case, a show Seattle deal). He is being paid a bit extra for the poor deal and knowing he has upside to rebound. Not sure why this is hard to understand. Nobody here or in management thinks Holtby was some top goaltender.

My posts all reflected that I did not have this idea either. I pointed to the team in front of him because I was showing that the team hasn't given him the opportunity for him to regain his form, yet. How many games has he played? Jeez.

Does demko outright suck too? Do all other goaltenders perform much better under these circumstances? Like where is the logic here. I dont even know where to begin with some of these arguments.

I mean you are creating an argument with nobody because you took my posts, when all of them have indicated that he took the deal in an attempt to build his value back up as that I think its the teams fault hes bad and hes still a #1? If anybody thought he was what he was in those years, he wouldn't have touched the contract the Canucks offered, with those terms. Hah

You seem to think the price for Holtby was low, that he was taking it to build his value up. My point, which I don't see you getting, is that the price was way, way too high for someone who for three years has not been a good goalie. There was no reason to believe he was likely to return to being worth $4.8 million per season.

This was nothing more than another Benning overpayment based on past performance or impressions. You seem unable or unwilling to accept that in your wishes to prop Benning up as learning from his mistakes.

I'd grant you that he's gone one whole offseason now without offering a free agent a six year deal, but based on Markstrom's comments after signing in Calgary (offered better term and money in Vancouver) that wouldn't be true. He also was reportedly trying to take on OEL's contract (7 years at $8.25 million left to run) and did take on Schmidt's deal (5 years left at $5.95 million) so really it is hard to conclude he's learned anything in that regard.

While we aren't behind the scenes, unless reports are untrue he still is making decisions based on outdated impressions, still looking to take on overpriced contracts and still paying too much in free agency.

His decision making was affected this season by being limited because of past mistakes, so while I think this may have been his least bad offseason or at least close to it, I don't see at this time concluding that is because he's learned from his mistakes.

I will grant you that he seems to have learned from the fine he got for tampering, but beyond that he seems to me to be the same old Benning making the same old mistakes.

 

[Hit the post]

Lol didn’t Benning also state that Delorme should be credited for finding Pettersson?

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Brace yourselves. It implies Benning is free to make trades and this trade could be very bad:

 

[MS]

The problem I have with the 'Clark wanted Holtby!' argument is that these things don't happen in a vaccum. This isn't 1998 and salaries and cap don't matter and you can just bring in whoever and see what happens.

If Clark liked something about Holtby, that's fine. In a vacuum. But Clark's opinion on Holtby will do nothing whatsoever to take into account cap hits and 21-22 planning and all the other stuff to determine whether an asset is a fit for a team.

The GM's job is to look at a recommendation like that and judge the value of the asset/contract package and where it fits into the team. If Ian Clark says he'd like to work with Holtby and we can sign him for 1 year/$1.5 million ... that's great! Make a move on it since that contract fits the projected role/situation. If Ian Clark says he wants to work with Sergei Bobrovsky because he really thinks he could turn around his career ... tough f'ing luck. You don't touch that contract with a 10-foot pole no matter what Ian Clark thinks.

And in this case, Ian Clark's opinion on Holtby should go right out the door if he required this sort of ticket to bring in.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Jim Benning hasn't been able to free up cap in a deal since 2015 (Kevin Bieksa) and I don't expect him to be able to start now.

 

[I am toxic]

Too funny...you dont think that Benning would have consulted his leading goaltender expert on what goalies to target .?..or retain..?
A few posters here have their tinfoil hats on a little crooked.

Where did someone claim Benning didn't consult Clark?

 

[4Twenty]

It’s not Benning’s fault Holtby’s contract is unlikely to be claimed in expansion its the goalie coaches fault.

The goalie coach said go spend more money than last season on goaltending....

Why the appeal to authority with Clark?
Why the straw man that he wasn’t consulted?

Because it defends Benning....yawn

 

[I am toxic]

It’s not Benning’s fault Holtby’s contract is unlikely to be claimed in expansion its the goalie coaches fault.

The goalie coach said go spend more money than last season on goaltending....

Why the appeal to authority with Clark?
Why the straw man that he wasn’t consulted?

Because it defends Benning....yawn

The buck stops . . . with anyone but Benning.

 

[MS]

It’s not Benning’s fault Holtby’s contract is unlikely to be claimed in expansion its the goalie coaches fault.

The goalie coach said go spend more money than last season on goaltending....

Why the appeal to authority with Clark?
Why the straw man that he wasn’t consulted?

Because it defends Benning....yawn

Ian Clark : Hey, this guy might be a decent option if we can't keep Markstrom.

Jim Benning : *mangles the situation at the goaltending position, loses superstar goalie, signs Holtby to terrible contract at poor term*

Benning fans : Ian Clark's fault!

Like, I'm sure some pro scout backed up the opinion that Jay Beagle was a solid 4th line/PK type, but that doesn't mean it's that guy's fault when Jim Benning gives him 4 years/$12 million.

 

[Canucker]

He’s not doing fine when you account for the poor defense. That’s the issue right now. His development has been stagnant for over a year at this point and it is rightly a concern.

Hard working, coachable and student of the craft describes 98% of NHL players. That’s an amazingly low bar to offer up as praise.

Now I don’t hate Demko or anything and he could very well take off like a rocket at some point but those far his play in the NHL has been sub-par overall and that was a concern in the off season and remains one.

Disagree...his development has been fine, the expectations are out of whack. He's been put into a situation where he, and Holtby, are left to try and save a defensive nightmare of a team and then people point the finger at them because they only saved 3 of the 5 breakaways the team allowed, or that they haven't "stolen" any games.

 

[rypper]

B̶U̶T̶ ̶G̶I̶L̶L̶I̶S̶ B̶U̶T̶ ̶L̶I̶N̶D̶E̶N̶ er... I mean BUT FRANCESCO!!!

 

[mathonwy]

Brace yourselves. It implies Benning is free to make trades and this trade could be very bad:

I wonder how this is going to end.

 

[NoShowWilly]

You move out virtanen or Gaudette and there potentially isn't anyone in that expansion list other than

Beagle Eriksson Roussel
Myers
Holtby

 

[F A N]

Huh? I just mentioned appeal to authority.

So let's ignore logical fallacies for a moment, and just go take a look at Holtby's SV%.

2018-2019 .911
2019-2020 .897
2021 to date .885

Well, that's not good.

So, when people in the offseason said that signing Holtby was a stupid move, regardless of whether he was on Clark's approved list or not, were kinda . . . well, let's put it this way. They didn't need to wait and see.

This isn't what appeal to authority means. I'm saying that most of us agreed that if we were to let Markstrom go and keep Demko we should insulate him with a good 1A/1B option on a short term contract. Holtby was likely the goalie Clark recommended and that's why the Canucks targeted him. If all you do is look at SV% you don't need to ask your scout or goalie coach for their opinions. Just target the guy with the best SV%. I think that would be Khudobin who the Canucks were reportedly interested.