The Management Thread | White Hole Edition

[F A N]

I see.

So you're denying the appeal to authority, and your diversion is argumentum ad populem.

Anyway, let's get back to facts, reasoning and logic.

There may be some idiotic posts that supported signing a 1A or 1B goalie regardless of dollar and term, but at the time it was already obvious that any replacement for Marky - given that management had screwed the pooch so royally with our cap structure - should be replacement level $ if more than one year, and only one year if more than replacement level $.

Secondly, Holdby was no doubt on a list of goalies that Clark believed he could work with. However, there is no evidence that Clark only recommended Holtby. And there is no evidence that Clark recommended a 2 year term. And there is no evidence Clark recommended that $ amount. But non sequiters are de riguerur along with ad hominem and argumentum ad populem. I'd add appeal to authority and straw man fallacy but I can't find the latin terms for them.

Thirdly, I understand that you might only look at one criteria, but as indicated in my post earlier, I listed the information that can and should be looked at, including age and related regression, comparables, past performance etc. It wasn't an exhaustive list, we can also look at team D and conclude that a goalie playing for a team like WAS is going to have better team defense than . . . than . . . well, you're familiar with the atrocious team D that Benning has managed to assemble after just 7 years.

Anyway, good to see that the bizarre claim about people saying Benning didn't consult Clark has been withdraw . . . oh, PoM hasn't withdrawn that one?

And the false ad hominem about tinfoil hats, not withdrawn either?

No surprise.

You know this is a message board to talk about hockey rate? Philosophy class and debate group can be found elsewhere.

I never said anything about Clark recommending Holtby getting a 2 year term or the AAV he got. I do think the Canucks overpaid a bit there, but if you look at the market, the contract Holtby got is reasonable. The others who are not 35+ got 3 year terms. Why don't you tell us who you would have targeted?

It appears to me that the way Benning usually goes about acquiring a goaltending is consulting his goalie coach. I think that is sound strategy but you can disagree. Holtby's drop off in performance coincided with Korn stepping back from full time coaching duties. Before that he was good. I think with goaltending, adjustments are needed especially as you start to age. Goaltending coaches have taken on much greater importance through the years and if Clark has identified Holtby as a goalie he can work with that's a solid bet. You can disagree with all of this and just look at the criterias you want to look at. For me, Ian Clark is the team's goaltending guru. I guess Benning doesn't have to trust him. He can just ask Wall and Biech for their recommendations.

 

[4Twenty]

I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that Holtby was the only target and driven by the goalie coach.

I’d have signed Craig Anderson and Aaron Dell both under $800k.

Went with Demko and whoever was earning it of the others.

Would’ve kept Tanev with the savings.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

You know this is a message board to talk about hockey rate? Philosophy class and debate group can be found elsewhere.

So logic and reasoning doesn't apply to criticizing arguments relating to hockey opinions? That's all he did. You just provided a silly red herring in an effort to dismiss his post, but it does nothing to rebut it. It is pretty amusing that you engaged in disagreeing with him but are now complaining about how this is a hockey discussion and not a debate group, though.

 

[m9]

You know this is a message board to talk about hockey rate? Philosophy class and debate group can be found elsewhere.

I never said anything about Clark recommending Holtby getting a 2 year term or the AAV he got. I do think the Canucks overpaid a bit there, but if you look at the market, the contract Holtby got is reasonable. The others who are not 35+ got 3 year terms. Why don't you tell us who you would have targeted?

It appears to me that the way Benning usually goes about acquiring a goaltending is consulting his goalie coach. I think that is sound strategy but you can disagree. Holtby's drop off in performance coincided with Korn stepping back from full time coaching duties. Before that he was good. I think with goaltending, adjustments are needed especially as you start to age. Goaltending coaches have taken on much greater importance through the years and if Clark has identified Holtby as a goalie he can work with that's a solid bet. You can disagree with all of this and just look at the criterias you want to look at. For me, Ian Clark is the team's goaltending guru. I guess Benning doesn't have to trust him. He can just ask Wall and Biech for their recommendations.

I think most are fine asking the goaltender coach for his input on who they should sign, that's not really the point. The point is the names that should have been targeted were from a lower, cheaper tier.

Get 10 names from Clark and sign the highest guy on the list willing to sign for under 2 million or whatever.

 

[I am toxic]

You know this is a message board to talk about hockey rate? Philosophy class and debate group can be found elsewhere.

I never said anything about Clark recommending Holtby getting a 2 year term or the AAV he got. I do think the Canucks overpaid a bit there, but if you look at the market, the contract Holtby got is reasonable. The others who are not 35+ got 3 year terms. Why don't you tell us who you would have targeted?

It appears to me that the way Benning usually goes about acquiring a goaltending is consulting his goalie coach. I think that is sound strategy but you can disagree. Holtby's drop off in performance coincided with Korn stepping back from full time coaching duties. Before that he was good. I think with goaltending, adjustments are needed especially as you start to age. Goaltending coaches have taken on much greater importance through the years and if Clark has identified Holtby as a goalie he can work with that's a solid bet. You can disagree with all of this and just look at the criterias you want to look at. For me, Ian Clark is the team's goaltending guru. I guess Benning doesn't have to trust him. He can just ask Wall and Biech for their recommendations.

What? Just because it's a message board doesnt mean postings containing logical fallacies can't be criticized, to show that their arguments are worthless.

The Holtby signing was a clusterf***.

The more that we see the only "defense" of this signing is false logical fallacies, false claims like PoM's, offensive attacks like PoM's, the more clear what a clusterf*** it was.

And when I say offensive, I mean it in the best possible way. 'cause . . . username, etc etc . . .

 

[valkynax]

What? Just because it's a message board doesnt mean postings containing logical fallacies can't be criticized, to show that their arguments are worthless.

The Holtby signing was a clusterf***.

The more that we see the only "defense" of this signing is false logical fallacies, false claims like PoM's, offensive attacks like PoM's, the more clear what a clusterf*** it was.

And when I say offensive, I mean it in the best possible way. 'cause . . . username, etc etc . . .

I've been seeing a theme here: when good things happen it's all Benning, when bad things happen it's all everyone else's fault. No evidence needed.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

People are seriously blaming the Holtby signing on the Goalie Coach? Guess what: if you ask the goalie coach who the best candidates to sign are they are probably going to be amongst the higher priced ones. If Benning had wanted a bargain backup he could have taken Ian Clarke's advice regarding lower end candidates.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I think FLA pre-Zito was similar to where we could be headed if things don't change. They drafted Huberdeau, Barkov and Ekblad some years back but haven't really gone anywhere as a team for the longest time because of issues with depth and D. You could argue that they might've gone down the route that COL took when they had to 'rebuild' their original rebuild around Stastny, Duchene, ROR and Barrie and were going nowhere as well.


Link

Here's a guy who took full advantage of a flat cap that further compressed salaries of mid-tier players, who've pretty much been getting squeezed as part of a wider trend over the last few years - the perfect conditions for buyers to capitalize on. By recognizing this market inefficiency Zito was able to make some smart, low-cost additions to round out their depth while not giving up much of anything in the way of futures. Similar to what Holland did in his first year with the Oilers but even better.

Compare that to Benning... who primarily spent way too much time/attention chasing big-ticket names on the decline like OEL and Holtby.

More than anything, this core needs a strong supporting cast but you don't necessarily need to pay through the nose for it. My hope is whoever comes in next as GM can do something similar to what Zito did by freeing up a little cap space to make effective stopgap additions via UFA/trade for cheap that should help us be more competitive. Then when all the junk is finally off the books, that's when we go for it.

Great post. Also, totally called Verhaege last off-season

I've always had a lot of time for Verhaege. I think he has top-6 talent. Would've liked the Canucks to get him, think he had a shot of jumping past Pearson on the left-side depth chart.

 

[MS]

Great post. Also, totally called Verhaege last off-season

Good call. Looked really good for TB's AHL team in 18-19 as well.

But if we'd signed Verhaege, there is a 100% chance that he'd have 2 points in 10 games with healthy scratches in the Gaudette role or would still be on the taxi squad.

 

[Dab]

So far Holtby has earned his paycheque with that stare down of JT Miller alone. Almost the equivalent of Bieksa punching that never was.

 

[DFAC]

Imagine if the Canucks had a third line that could put up offense:

The Canucks haven't had a 3C who could put up points since..... Kyle Wellwood? Hodgson?

They've always used their 3C as more of a shutdown role ala Malholtra and early Kesler.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

The Canucks haven't had a 3C who could put up points since..... Kyle Wellwood? Hodgson?

They've always used their 3C as more of a shutdown role ala Malholtra and early Kesler.

Malhotra put up 30 points in 72 games (34 point pace), while providing elite defence and being deployed mostly in the defensive end. He's probably been our best 3C over the past couple of decades, sucks that his injury ended his prime right away.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

For those hoping that this trading deadline will be different, it is worth reflecting that Ownership and management will never give up 'Foundational', 'Good in the room', 'Veteran leadership' in their 'Quest for the playoffs' like Sutter etc.

Book it, there will be no Christmas morning of draft pick goodies on the trading deadline.

In the years to come, people may reflect how truly horrendous the Canucks' 'Retooling on the fly' has been and 'Benning' will become the verb to describe this.

BTW: Marktrom and Tanev and every other expiring UFA in recent memory say Hello!

 

[Fatass]

For those hoping that this trading deadline will be different, it is worth reflecting that Ownership and management will never give up 'Foundational', 'Good in the room', 'Veteran leadership' in their 'Quest for the playoffs' like Sutter or Roussel etc.

Book it, there will be no Christmas morning of draft pick goodies on the trading deadline.

In the years to come, people may reflect how truly horrendous the Canucks' 'Retooling on the fly' has been and 'Benning' will become the verb to describe this.

BTW: Marktrom and Tanev and every other expiring UFA in recent memory say Hello!

Our owner said publicly he believes in the Benning/Brod plan, right? What plan is that? I have yet to see an actual plan. Jethro/Jethrine don’t plan. If they planned then UFAs not coming back would be traded at TDLs for picks, especially during a “shocking reboot”.
Picks for Sutter, Benn, and Pearson at the TDL should be used as sweetener to dump the last year of Loui, Roussel, or Beagle.
Hell, Jethro/Jethrine had the perf3 t opportunity (if they actually had a plan) to use Demko as sweetener to dump Loui this last off season, and use that freed up cap space to sign Marky and Tanev.
Thanks Benning/Brod

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

I am pretty sure hives of bees may occupy the minds' of Canuck management.

 

[Fatass]

I am pretty sure hives of bees may occupy the minds' of Canuck management.

Benning reminds me of a bumbling (but nice) neighbour we had. The wife and I had our first house, and an older lawnmower that smoked and coughed, but still got the job done. This neighbour thought he’d help out these young home owners, and offered to fix the mower. Well, he made it worse. Nice guy, and enjoyed him as a neighbour, but never let him “help fix” anything after that.
What the hell is wrong with our owner? Benning broke the mower, and then set to burning down the house “fixing the furnace”. And still our owner invites Benning to break more.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

I am not sure if anyone noticed but in Ownership's, Tweetfest-2021,
the supports were referred to as, "Our fans are passionate and knowledgeable."

This may be a smokescreen but, if Ownership believes the supporters are 'knowledgeable' and are summarizing the management and coaching situation (the trigger for Tweetfest-2021) properly is this an indication that the Owner believes the criticism of Benning/Weisbrod/Greener is spot on?

 

[Hit the post]

The Canucks haven't had a 3C who could put up points since..... Kyle Wellwood? Hodgson?

They've always used their 3C as more of a shutdown role ala Malholtra and early Kesler.

Horvat handles more than his share of 'tough minutes' though it's not really his strong suit. Problem is, there aren't many alternatives on the bench for Green to use.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

The Canucks haven't had a 3C who could put up points since..... Kyle Wellwood? Hodgson?

They've always used their 3C as more of a shutdown role ala Malholtra and early Kesler.

The 2014-15 season had Sedin and Bonino as the top two centers, and the bottom six was some combination of:

Bo Horvat - 25 points in 68 games
Brad Richardson - 21 points in 45 games.
Shawn Matthias - 27 points in 78 games.

Then Jim Benning took a look at that, decided Prust, Sutter and Vey could replace Matthias, Bonino and Richardson, and that was that. Bottom 6 has been a disaster since.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Championship teams don't really have a bottom six in the context of being devoutly crappier than the top 6, but 'Your Vancouver Canucks' do.

 

[Fatass]

The 2014-15 season had Sedin and Bonino as the top two centers, and the bottom six was some combination of:

Bo Horvat - 25 points in 68 games
Brad Richardson - 21 points in 45 games.
Shawn Matthias - 27 points in 78 games.

Then Jim Benning took a look at that, decided Prust, Sutter and Vey could replace Matthias, Bonino and Richardson, and that was that. Bottom 6 has been a disaster since.

On gop of this Benning thought it smart to use draft capital to bring in bottom six level guys. How many second and third round picks did Benning trade away, while during a rebuilding phase?

 

[4Twenty]

The 2014-15 season had Sedin and Bonino as the top two centers, and the bottom six was some combination of:

Bo Horvat - 25 points in 68 games
Brad Richardson - 21 points in 45 games.
Shawn Matthias - 27 points in 78 games.

Then Jim Benning took a look at that, decided Prust, Sutter and Vey could replace Matthias, Bonino and Richardson, and that was that. Bottom 6 has been a disaster since.

That inherited C corps cost $12.75m.

The current C corps costs ~$15m and the top guy is on an ELC.

It’s crazy to see how inefficient the management has been.

 

[carrotshirt]

As I have stated, I have hated 95 percent of his moves. However he has improved in all areas I had a problem with. Drafting. Pro Scouting and now he's highly concerned about term and who he offers term to. My only point is that at this point, his flaws are becoming lesser and lesser to the point that a new GM .. MAY.. not be the better option. There are clearly some things that I think need ironed out but this is clearly somebody learning on the fly and making the fanbase scream during it but it is what it is. The owner hired somebody inexperienced to be able to have more input and control.

If a clear good GM was available and wanting to come onboard, I would most definitely interview them. But I don't think people are even open to the idea that he could actually be improving to a point where he can actually manage this team in a respectable way, possibly as soon as now, because people are so clouded with anger towards his past moves and ones that are still causing the team to be handcuffed.

“I have hated 95% of our GMs moves and we should keep this terrible GM.”

 

[Hit the post]

The 2014-15 season had Sedin and Bonino as the top two centers, and the bottom six was some combination of:

Bo Horvat - 25 points in 68 games
Brad Richardson - 21 points in 45 games.
Shawn Matthias - 27 points in 78 games.

Then Jim Benning took a look at that, decided Prust, Sutter and Vey could replace Matthias, Bonino and Richardson, and that was that. Bottom 6 has been a disaster since.

Tossed away a 3C that he drafted for a #7D in NoGoodBranson.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Our owner said publicly he believes in the Benning/Brod plan, right? What plan is that? I have yet to see an actual plan. Jethro/Jethrine don’t plan. If they planned then UFAs not coming back would be traded at TDLs for picks, especially during a “shocking reboot”.
Picks for Sutter, Benn, and Pearson at the TDL should be used as sweetener to dump the last year of Loui, Roussel, or Beagle.
Hell, Jethro/Jethrine had the perf3 t opportunity (if they actually had a plan) to use Demko as sweetener to dump Loui this last off season, and use that freed up cap space to sign Marky and Tanev.
Thanks Benning/Brod

Step 1: Draft 4-5 excellent young players.
Step 2: Surround them with bunch of declining vets and bad players, sign them to unmoveable long term contracts.
Step 3: Let the actual good players on your team leave as free agents.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Cup!