The Management Thread | White Hole Edition

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mriswith

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Oct 12, 2011
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That rental/toffoli handling was absolutely disgusting.
My point was that it's the same thing with Markstrom, Tanev, Leivo and Stecher. Markstrom and Tanev were both worth 1sts, Stecher probably a 3rd. Keeping them is the same thing as trading a 1st for them as a rental.

As with CBJ, we kept our rentals and paid the invisible price for it.

In my books that playoff run cost us two 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd and Madden in rentals alone... not counting the Miller deal.
 
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timw33

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Yup.

$6 million to Ryan Miller in his mid-30s? Yup!
$6 million to Loui Eriksson in his mid-30s? Yup!
$6 million to Milan Lucic in his mid-30s? Yup!
$6 million to Beagle/Roussel in their mid-30s? Yup!
$6 million to Tyler Myers in his mid-30s? Yup!

$6 million to your best player and MVP through his mid-30s? Oh god no. We only give other teams' old junk retirement contracts, not our own stars.

And not signing Markstrom gets used as a talking point that Benning is "learning" from his mistakes, not the correct assessment is that he is reaping the consequences of his mistakes.
 

MS

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Pro scouting hasn’t improved when you can let 4 perfectly good players who signed 4 perfectly reasonable contracts where all 4 clearly wanted to be here go and replace them with lateral moves at best.

Hamonic plus Schmidt is $7.1m
Tanev plus Stecher is $6.2m

Holtby plus Virtanen plus Sutter ~$11.2m
Markstrom plus Toffoli plus Sutter buyout ~$12m

After alloting roughly the same amount to return the better parts of last years team they judged they could lose all of these players and still be better this season. Whether that’s PR I don’t care. They didn’t expect a step back at all.

This is shocking them I imagine. Look at what Frankie bleubs just said. They expected to be good.

The Stecher move remains the most absolutely infuriating, because it was such a comically unforced error. How you can look at your roster and decide that that player on that contract is a liability beggars belief.
 

F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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MS has already addressed this.

If the team is going to select Demko over Marky, then getting Holtby was an idiotic move. Any cap space savings from losing Marky was largely blown on Holtby.

Was anyone here proposing to keep Demko instead of Markstrom and pair him with a cheap backup goalie? What would you be saying now if that cheap backup goalie played as well as Nilsson here.

I think most of us here agreed that if we were keeping Demko, we insulate him with a 1A/1B starter on a short term contract especially in a shortened season filled with many back to back games. There was nothing wrong with that strategy. The question was whether Holtby was the right goalie to sign and at that price. The ideal plan was to have Demko take over as the #1 goalie while splitting the duties with a very capable 1A/1B backup.

I have little reason to doubt that Holtby was not a Ian Clark recommendation. Kevin Woodley, whose opinion I do respect, thought he was an excellent fit with Clark and the Canucks. Clark hasn't had much time to work with Holtby and I am hoping he can turn things around.
 

mathonwy

Positively #toxic
Jan 21, 2008
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Mental gymnastics? Its choosing a young stud goaltender (plus capspace) over resigning an aging free agent. Simple as that. If you want to focus on what he is today vs the whole picture, thats up to you. It would only seem absurd if you are not high on the player they chose over that player. This is extremely cut and dry. You can be for or against it but there are solid arguments for either side and neither side has much to stand on to say "i was right" when it has not played out. It's 20 games into the very next season. In a very abnormal season

But yeah, if you prefer to thinking, anybody with a different viewing on the same event as out to lunch, feel free. However it's hard to take anybody serious with that type of take
Today is what matters.

7 years is how long it took to get here.

Chris Tanev is a proven platinum level hockey asset.

Jacob Markstrom is a proven platinum level hockey asset.

Platinum level hockey assets are players the coach doesn't have to worry about. There's never any chemistry problems or work ethic issues with them and they honestly and truly want to make the Canucks great again because they've invested in a huge part of themselves into the team which is the key determining factor between gold level and platinum level hockey assets.

They consistently work hard. They compete hard. They ride through adversity and they win (in their own right).

The Sedins were platinum level assets. So was Willie Mitchell, Dan Hamhuis, Sami Salo and Alex Burrows.

Tangent: And if given a chance, I like to think Troy Stecher from Richmond would also have become a platinum level asset.

Situation: 7 years. Tanev is in his prime. Marky is in his prime. Bo is in his prime. Miller looks like Marchand. Jake looks like he's waking up. Hoglander is lurking in the wings. Toffoli makes our top 6 look ultra dangerous and his defensive acumen is the real deal. Our next gen Canucks have hope because they reached round 2 game 7.

Ownership-MGMT: Let's f*** everyone instead and tank this bitch into the cellar.
 

Hit the post

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Other than some minor tinkering here and there, I question just how much Clark will improve a veteran goalie over 30 years old. But I confess I never played that position at any level. Demko, on the other hand, I think Clark have a much more positive impact on later on.
 

xtra

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Honestly I’d like anyone trying to defend the markstrom move this past season to put it into context of what bennings actual plan is/has been for the last 18 months?

like are we competing for the playoffs and more? Are we rebuilding? Are we throwing poop at a wall and seeing what sticks???

I know which one I think it is
 

SeawaterOnIce

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I have little reason to doubt that Holtby was not a Ian Clark recommendation. Kevin Woodley, whose opinion I do respect, thought he was an excellent fit with Clark and the Canucks. Clark hasn't had much time to work with Holtby and I am hoping he can turn things around.

Benning targeted Holtby because he was good 3-4 years ago and won a cup. That's why.

Ryan Miller - was elite 3-4 years prior, and targeted for that reason
Ferland - targeted because he physically destroyed the Canucks 4 years prior

Gudbranson, Myers, Sbisa, and Sutter were once highly touted and had name recognition so they were targeted.

On and on we go...

Benning makes his pro-scouting moves based on players that were once good. Not based on potential.
 

I am toxic

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Was anyone here proposing to keep Demko instead of Markstrom and pair him with a cheap backup goalie? What would you be saying now if that cheap backup goalie played as well as Nilsson here.

I think most of us here agreed that if we were keeping Demko, we insulate him with a 1A/1B starter on a short term contract especially in a shortened season filled with many back to back games. There was nothing wrong with that strategy. The question was whether Holtby was the right goalie to sign and at that price. The ideal plan was to have Demko take over as the #1 goalie while splitting the duties with a very capable 1A/1B backup.

I have little reason to doubt that Holtby was not a Ian Clark recommendation. Kevin Woodley, whose opinion I do respect, thought he was an excellent fit with Clark and the Canucks. Clark hasn't had much time to work with Holtby and I am hoping he can turn things around.

Yes people were, and why would your appeal to supposed authorities like Clark and Woodley, and to non-authorities like internet posters be worth much of a response?

We have facts (ages, detailed stats of past performances, effect of aging on performance, comparable contracts, past practice with respect to contracts as players progress from ELC to RFA to UFA, cap structures of the team and all other teams, and the knowledge that linear time will keep advancing) and we have the structure of reason and logic to form worthwhile arguments.

So logical fallacies like appeals to authorities or appeal to the mob just seem like mailing it in.

And I love it, because tearing apart defenses of the indefensible is effortless and right up my ally, because I'm . . . you know.
 
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I am toxic

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Oct 24, 2014
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Honestly I’d like anyone trying to defend the markstrom move this past season to put it into context of what bennings actual plan is/has been for the last 18 months?

like are we competing for the playoffs and more? Are we rebuilding? Are we throwing poop at a wall and seeing what sticks???

I know which one I think it is

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4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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Was anyone here proposing to keep Demko instead of Markstrom and pair him with a cheap backup goalie? What would you be saying now if that cheap backup goalie played as well as Nilsson here.

I think most of us here agreed that if we were keeping Demko, we insulate him with a 1A/1B starter on a short term contract especially in a shortened season filled with many back to back games. There was nothing wrong with that strategy. The question was whether Holtby was the right goalie to sign and at that price. The ideal plan was to have Demko take over as the #1 goalie while splitting the duties with a very capable 1A/1B backup.

I have little reason to doubt that Holtby was not a Ian Clark recommendation. Kevin Woodley, whose opinion I do respect, thought he was an excellent fit with Clark and the Canucks. Clark hasn't had much time to work with Holtby and I am hoping he can turn things around.
We’d be saying at least it’s cheap goaltending rather than what we’re getting which is poor goaltending at a higher price than last season.
 

DS7

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Oct 9, 2013
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That was sort of my point by my post. This decision was made by the owner. What I was debating was whether it's that he WAS a below average GM throughout most of his tenure and that long leash created an average GM, no different than giving too much opportunity to a player like Motte, who by pure force and opporunity, actually resulted in a pretty good player, at that point, you shut up and keep him. How long his leash was or how many large mistakes he made during his tenure does not determine whether he is at this very point, a decent option moving forward.

Considering the mistakes he made as recently as this last offseason, letting prime assets who wanted to stay walk to division rivals. He is not a decent option going forward. I'd much rather prefer someone like Gilman, Lombardi, Hextall (too late) or McFarland at this point to Jim. The fact he chose, even at the eleventh hour, to qualify Jake Virtanen (who is right now benched and on the trade block for peanuts) and not re-sign Tanev or Toffoli is a fireable offense and irredeemably horrific asset management.

Youre putting things under a microscope and singling out one thing to make a point. As a whole, his pro scouting has improved and has actually won trades recently, his rate of success is much improved in that very department. Sure that one specific case has minimal improvement. He also traded Gudbranson for Pearson

I'm looking at the wider context of his moves and what they meant for our cap space. taking into account the whole picture to make the point. Benning is death by a thousand cuts. His pro scouting has not improved (Myers and Ferland in the 2019 offseason), his personnel decisions has not improved (losing Malholtra and Brackett), the drafting remains to be seen in a post Judd world.

Also, how is it any less microscopic when I point these moves in the context of a wider strategy (personnel, drafting, contracts, cap) but in the next sentence you're asking me to focus on individual tranactions like Motte and Pearson?


How he handled the managerial side is purely speculative and fans are not aware of the details and negotiations and peoples view of this will simply be based on their general view of him based on other factors and most of which is based around the past poor decisions this GM made that have greatly impacted the team for several years and having to suffer through a steep learning curve while he makes large mistakes.

Again I want to point to Motte as an example. Nobody is complaining about him now, was it a bad target in the first place, very likely, was he played too much in most scenarios, yeah sure possible. With too much opportunity, a pretty respectable player was born

of course, we are fans and we are working with the same public information. This is all speculation. It's just that there has been enough smoke to at least tell me something is burning, and the front office turnover and the moves this team has done is enough to tell you something. I don't need to be an insider to know that we let Tanev, Markstrom, Toffoli walk to a division rival.

I have a calculator, a calendar and capfriendly.com to know for years that we were headed down a cap squeeze regardless of covid.

Is 'he is learning on the job' still a valid excuse after you've been at the job for seven years?

Are you not being microscopic with Motte? For the record, I was very much against that trade, Vanek should have been a draft pick. Do i like Motte? Yes. Same way i liked JT Miller as a player but was able to still criticize the timing of the trade in the broader view of the competitive window and ages of this core, along with the strength of the 2020 draft and UFA classes.


You dont think his drafting has improved, you dont think his pro scouting/trading has improved and you dont think he's more aware of cap management and term?

Correct. He's too focused on the short term, limited goal of making playoffs. As for Cap management, He's definitely aware of it now, not by choice. I don't trust him enough to dig us out of the cap hell he's put us in.

And honestly, the bleeding of talent in the front office (Gilman, Brackett, Malholtra) tells me enough. he's not a good manager, he's not able to delegate and surround himself with people that are smarter than him. And even if I acknowledge his drafting has improved, it's useless if he trades the picks away or gives the assets away for rentals.

There is a saying once about a Roman emperor who got so jealous and paranoid of his best general that he had him assassinated, the adage goes like this:

"Whether well or not, I do not know. But know that you have cut off your right hand with your left."

That's really GMJB's tenure in a nutshell.



As a side note:

I don't mean to sound like I'm railing on you. I know the internet can amplify our emotions and it comes off differently from a keyboard. We're fans of the same team after all, and I respect your conviction, I don't expect you to change your mind. This is more to just get my thoughts out. Either way, neither of us have control of this team. All we can do is watch and cheer for better or for worse.
 
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F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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We’d be saying at least it’s cheap goaltending rather than what we’re getting which is poor goaltending at a higher price than last season.

Would you? You'll probably criticize the Canucks for not signing a better goaltender. At the end of the day, good goaltending is important. We definitely haven't gotten much value out of Holtby.
 

SeawaterOnIce

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Would you? You'll probably criticize the Canucks for not signing a better goaltender. At the end of the day, good goaltending is important. We definitely haven't gotten much value out of Holtby.

Venomously disagree. Team D was a major issue going into the off-season. Markstrom literally broke down under the heavy workload twice. No goalie is going to bail out a team that gives multiple odd man rushes and high percentage scoring chances. If they do, they will likely face fatigue and eventually succumb to the rigors of the workload.

Simply put, we have 1 legitimate top 4 dman that can play defense. That's Schmidt. Myers and Hughes are offensive minded or cannot sustain heavy defensive time unless they have a stay-at-home partner. Edler is old and probably done after this season. Benn, Hamonic and Juolevi should all be depth/AHL tweeners.

My thinking is that this team is still screwed with a Markstrom and Demko tandem this year. A lateral shift in D was not going to cut it. They needed to add D depth, and instead got rid of a shot blocking machine and a top pairing stabilizer and a solid #4 dman that could munch defensive minutes.

Looking at the cup winners from the past decade. It becomes apparent that good goaltending behind a well structured team D wins championships. Not elite goaltending.
 
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MarkMM

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Would you? You'll probably criticize the Canucks for not signing a better goaltender. At the end of the day, good goaltending is important. We definitely haven't gotten much value out of Holtby.

That's the thing...at the end of the day Benning is paying premium for bad goaltending, and let good players walk because he consistently makes bad value judgements.
 

RobertKron

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Sep 1, 2007
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Would you? You'll probably criticize the Canucks for not signing a better goaltender. At the end of the day, good goaltending is important. We definitely haven't gotten much value out of Holtby.

if they’d signed some cheap backup who put up a ~.875 sv or something (ignoring that your example of disastrous goaltending, Nilsson, put up ~.900), and spent the difference on keeping or signing a better guy on D, they might well be better off at this point as far as GA is concerned given how many shots this team currently allows.
 

WTG

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Just copied a post I made in the GDT here because it's relevant.

Decided to count how many points/caphit the CURRENT HEALTHY Canucks/Flames bottom 6 have.

Flames bottom 6:
13 goals
0.18 goals/game
14 assists
.19 assists/game
27 pts 73 GP
.37pts/game
Cap Hit - 15.353
0.57 million per point


Canucks bottom 6:
10 goals
.11 goals/game
7 assists
.08 assists/game
17 pts/88 GP
.19 pts/game
Cap Hit - 19.58 mil
1.15 million per point

Canucks are paying 4.5 million more on their bottom 6 than Calgary but are paying double per point than the flames. That's how much Benning overpaid the bottom 6.

EDIT:
Let's be ultra charitable, we should do Canucks bottom 6 when healthy but include taxi squad cap hits. Calgary doesn't really change because they are running a relatively healthy lineup.
Eriksson out of the lineup with Motte coming back into the lineup.

Canucks bottom 6:
15 goals
.15 goals/game
7 assists
.07 assists/game
22 pts/100gp
.22 pts/game
Cap Hit 14.805 (w/o Eriksson cap hit)
.67 million per point
Cap Hit 19.73 (w Eriksson cap hit (reduced because of waivers))
.90 million per point

Calgary doesn't have dead cap on their taxi squad whereas the Canucks do with Eriksson out of the lineup. Calgary's bottom 6 is not good. But the Canucks are even worse.
 
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mossey3535

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Feb 7, 2011
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Other than some minor tinkering here and there, I question just how much Clark will improve a veteran goalie over 30 years old. But I confess I never played that position at any level. Demko, on the other hand, I think Clark have a much more positive impact on later on.

So far it hasn't happened. Demko did credit him for streamlining his mental preparation for games. But in-game I don't see a lot of progress.
 
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