The Management Thread | White Hole Edition

[Bojack Horvatman]

Loses superstar goalie?..In 2015 ,you stated that you could have cared less if Markstrom was claimed on waivers..In 2020 you claim that Benning was right not to sign him to 5-6 year deal with a NMC..Now you're saying he bungled it...lol

You're all over the map..Be interesting to see where you flip flop over to, in a couple of years (when Marky's not getting any younger).

MS has already explained multiple times that keeping Markstrom and using Demko to clear money or fill a hole, or keeping Demko and using the cap space to improve the team were both good options. Paying close to the same amount on worse goaltending wasn't.

What do his opinions on Marksrom in 2015 have to do with anything? People's opinions change in 6 years.

 

[MS]

Loses superstar goalie?..In 2015 ,you stated that you could have cared less if Markstrom was claimed on waivers..

I'm very consistent in my comments about waiving guys. I also defended the hell out of Benning for waiving Frankie Corrado. If you don't think some guy makes your team on merit, you waive them. Zero problem with it. 99% of guys don't get claimed.

In 2020 you claim that Benning was right not to sign him to 5-6 year deal with a NMC..Now you're saying he bungled it...lol

You're all over the map..Be interesting to see where you flip flop over to, in a couple of years (when Marky's not getting any younger).

I've explained my position on this to you on multiple occasions.

1) Not signing Markstrom, using savings to improve roster elsewhere : FINE

2) Signing Markstrom, flipping Demko to improve roster elsewhere : FINE

3) Not signing Markstrom, wasting cap savings on washed-up goalie so we're spending more on a worse product in net and screwing up our ability to improve the roster in the 2020 and 2021 offseasons : F'ING TERRIBLE

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

MS has already explained multiple times that keeping Markstrom and using Demko to clear money or fill a hole, or keeping Demko and using the cap space to improve the team were both good options. Paying close to the same amount on worse goaltending wasn't.

What do his opinions on Marksrom in 2015 have to do with anything? People's opinions change in 6 years.

Well , thanks for speaking up for him and defending him.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Much of the recent unpleasantness could have been avoided if he had simply kept his word.

Anyway this never happened.

I nominate Larionov.

 

[tantalum]

Disagree...his development has been fine, the expectations are out of whack. He's been put into a situation where he, and Holtby, are left to try and save a defensive nightmare of a team and then people point the finger at them because they only saved 3 of the 5 breakaways the team allowed, or that they haven't "stolen" any games.

The problem is that when you correct for that defense his numbers are below water (goals saved above expected). They just are.

And then you have appraisals from people, one on this board, that seem to have some pretty good expertise seeing the same things. I’m pretty confident in my belief that we aren’t seeing strides in his game over the last year or so.

That doesn’t mean we won’t start to see those strides moving forward but right now we aren’t.

We can agree to disagree!

 

[M2Beezy]

"I'm against 95% of Bennings moves, but 100% of my posts are supporting the 5% of moves that aren't atrocious."

It's hard to take it seriously. But I do. Very seriously.

What

 

[Fatass]

What

YOu changed your name and picture. “What?”

 

[VanJack]

So' Travis and Jim will continue the rebuilding as per the plan we have in place'. A 'plan they have in place'? No team in the entire NHL has lost more regular season games over the past seven years than the Vancouver Canucks.

Does Francesco have any grasp about how foolish this makes him look?

 

[RandV]

This isn't what appeal to authority means. I'm saying that most of us agreed that if we were to let Markstrom go and keep Demko we should insulate him with a good 1A/1B option on a short term contract. Holtby was likely the goalie Clark recommended and that's why the Canucks targeted him. If all you do is look at SV% you don't need to ask your scout or goalie coach for their opinions. Just target the guy with the best SV%. I think that would be Khudobin who the Canucks were reportedly interested.

This just isn't true. Insulate him with a good veteran backup sure, sign a guy to a two year low-tier starter contract to split duties definitely not.

The Rangers aren't doing well this season but goaltending isn't a problem, after letting Lundavist go they're going with their two young 25 year olds. When Washington let Holtby go to turn to their young guy Samsonov they only signed Lundqvist to a 1 year $1.5M deal... not sure exactly what happened there but Lundqvist is on LTIR, Samsonov in the minors, they have Craig Anderson as backup at 1 year $600,000 and are using their 25 year old AHL guy Vitek Vanecek as starter. Or a good example I like to go to, as we've been here before with Ryan Miller, 10 years ago nowwhen Chicago was ready to turn the job over to Corey Crawford, 25 year old AHL starter with 8 games in the NHL. They ditched their 1A/1B guys from the season prior Niemi and Huet and gave Crawford a 57/29 split with Marty Turco on a (checks) 1 year $1.3M deal. This is probably how most teams operate when transitioning starters.

There's a number of ways you can do things, but generally if you think Demko is your guy going forward but at his age/experience is still not ready to be the full time starter... then we really should have kept Markstrom. Or if you want Demko to succeed you'd think the GM could recognize that he'd have a better chance just signing a random backup like Aaron Dell and keeping Tanev than signing Holtby to a big deal then being unable to afford Tanev and having to settle for Hamonic.

Another fun side effect, with how tight money is going to be paying Pettersson and Hughes you probably want to try and bridge Demko on something like a 2 year deal with a 3-3.5M cap hit. But how do start negotiations when you just gave your 1B guy 2 years with a $4.3M cap hit?

Jim Benning hasn't learned a thing.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Wait, did I miss it, was #FrankTheTank always a thing?

 

[RandV]

So' Travis and Jim will continue the rebuilding as per the plan we have in place'. A 'plan they have in place'? No team in the entire NHL has lost more regular season games over the past seven years than the Vancouver Canucks.

Does Francesco have any grasp about how foolish this makes him look?

But he's able to add one good player a year from the draft, who's the last GM to be able to do that!

So with the team probably needing another 5 good players at least that just means we're only 5 years away from being a good team now.

 

[Canucker]

The problem is that when you correct for that defense his numbers are below water (goals saved above expected). They just are.

And then you have appraisals from people, one on this board, that seem to have some pretty good expertise seeing the same things. I’m pretty confident in my belief that we aren’t seeing strides in his game over the last year or so.

That doesn’t mean we won’t start to see those strides moving forward but right now we aren’t.

We can agree to disagree!

Of course, disagreement makes this place entertaining

I'm not trying to say the goaltending has been great, or even good...I think its been about par, and it needs to be better for the team to have any real success...but I think that goes for the entire organization from top to bottom. For myself, I just find myself less concerned about the goaltending right now because I don't find a lot of consistent glaring errors that would worry me going forward...I used to nitpick both Luongo (the belly flops) and Schneider (weak off the short side post) for what I believed were the shortcomings to their game, I haven't found Demko's yet due to a small viewing sample size, but I'm sure I will with more games watched.

 

[Canucker]

This just isn't true. Insulate him with a good veteran backup sure, sign a guy to a two year low-tier starter contract to split duties definitely not.

The Rangers aren't doing well this season but goaltending isn't a problem, after letting Lundavist go they're going with their two young 25 year olds. When Washington let Holtby go to turn to their young guy Samsonov they only signed Lundqvist to a 1 year $1.5M deal... not sure exactly what happened there but Lundqvist is on LTIR, Samsonov in the minors, they have Craig Anderson as backup at 1 year $600,000 and are using their 25 year old AHL guy Vitek Vanecek as starter. Or a good example I like to go to, as we've been here before with Ryan Miller, 10 years ago nowwhen Chicago was ready to turn the job over to Corey Crawford, 25 year old AHL starter with 8 games in the NHL. They ditched their 1A/1B guys from the season prior Niemi and Huet and gave Crawford a 57/29 split with Marty Turco on a (checks) 1 year $1.3M deal. This is probably how most teams operate when transitioning starters.

There's a number of ways you can do things, but generally if you think Demko is your guy going forward but at his age/experience is still not ready to be the full time starter... then we really should have kept Markstrom. Or if you want Demko to succeed you'd think the GM could recognize that he'd have a better chance just signing a random backup like Aaron Dell and keeping Tanev than signing Holtby to a big deal then being unable to afford Tanev and having to settle for Hamonic.

Another fun side effect, with how tight money is going to be paying Pettersson and Hughes you probably want to try and bridge Demko on something like a 2 year deal with a 3-3.5M cap hit. But how do start negotiations when you just gave your 1B guy 2 years with a $4.3M cap hit?

Jim Benning hasn't learned a thing.

I think this is just a product of being a conservative NHL dinosaur GM...he "thinks" Demko is his guy, but he's not willing to bet his job on it, so he hedges his bet with a veteran #1 guy and eats up precious cap space. He can't help but dig himself deeper into a hole because its the only way he knows.

 

[I am toxic]

This isn't what appeal to authority means. I'm saying that most of us agreed that if we were to let Markstrom go and keep Demko we should insulate him with a good 1A/1B option on a short term contract. Holtby was likely the goalie Clark recommended and that's why the Canucks targeted him. If all you do is look at SV% you don't need to ask your scout or goalie coach for their opinions. Just target the guy with the best SV%. I think that would be Khudobin who the Canucks were reportedly interested.

I see.

So you're denying the appeal to authority, and your diversion is argumentum ad populem.

Anyway, let's get back to facts, reasoning and logic.

There may be some idiotic posts that supported signing a 1A or 1B goalie regardless of dollar and term, but at the time it was already obvious that any replacement for Marky - given that management had screwed the pooch so royally with our cap structure - should be replacement level $ if more than one year, and only one year if more than replacement level $.

Secondly, Holdby was no doubt on a list of goalies that Clark believed he could work with. However, there is no evidence that Clark only recommended Holtby. And there is no evidence that Clark recommended a 2 year term. And there is no evidence Clark recommended that $ amount. But non sequiters are de riguerur along with ad hominem and argumentum ad populem. I'd add appeal to authority and straw man fallacy but I can't find the latin terms for them.

Thirdly, I understand that you might only look at one criteria, but as indicated in my post earlier, I listed the information that can and should be looked at, including age and related regression, comparables, past performance etc. It wasn't an exhaustive list, we can also look at team D and conclude that a goalie playing for a team like WAS is going to have better team defense than . . . than . . . well, you're familiar with the atrocious team D that Benning has managed to assemble after just 7 years.

Anyway, good to see that the bizarre claim about people saying Benning didn't consult Clark has been withdraw . . . oh, PoM hasn't withdrawn that one?

And the false ad hominem about tinfoil hats, not withdrawn either?

No surprise.

 

[valkynax]

I wonder how this is going to end.

I think we ALL know how this is going to end.

 

[I am toxic]

I think this is just a product of being a conservative NHL dinosaur GM...he "thinks" Demko is his guy, but he's not willing to bet his job on it, so he hedges his bet with a veteran #1 guy and eats up precious cap space. He can't help but dig himself deeper into a hole because its the only way he knows.

And yet some on this board think you can teach a dinosaur new tricks.

 

[M2Beezy]

YOu changed your name and picture. “What?”

Just the picture. My name stayed the same. But updated by USERname

 

[vanuck]

Situation: 7 years. Tanev is in his prime. Marky is in his prime. Bo is in his prime. Miller looks like Marchand. Jake looks like he's waking up. Hoglander is lurking in the wings. Toffoli makes our top 6 look ultra dangerous and his defensive acumen is the real deal. Our next gen Canucks have hope because they reached round 2 game 7.

Ownership-MGMT: Let's f*** everyone instead and tank this bitch into the cellar.

Wait, did I miss it, was #FrankTheTank always a thing?

Looks like it officially has a name.

#FrankTheTank

 

[SamInVan]

I entirely disagree with this sentiment

Ok. Thats cool.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Imagine if the Canucks had a third line that could put up offense:

Take a look at the PPG pace of the top three centers in the lineup: Carolina Hurricanes Depth Charts Projection - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Sebastian Aho: 13 points in 13 games
Vincent Trocheck: 13 points in 12 games
Jordan Staal: 14 points in 11 games

The closest comparables to this situation is when Tampa runs Stamkos, Point, and Cirelli as centers, or when Edmonton runs McDavid, Draisaitl, and RNH as centers. Most of the time, though, both clubs tend to use one of the three on the wing to boost offense in the top-6. So far, Carolina hasn't done that, which is one of the reasons why all of the wingers around them have at least 0.6 PPG. It's kind of cool to watch.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

or even just this instead of Sutter and Beagle:

Trotz makes it work but he got the exact players he needs to do it.

Barzal/Nelson/Pageau/Cizikias is arguably the best 1-2-3-4C balance in the league, if not in talent then in ability relative to role/deployment/ice time. Same deal with their wingers and defensemen. No franchise #1 but every one suited for the role they play. A lot of top heavy teams like Edmonton dominate half the game but then give away 15-20 minutes while well balanced team can push for all 60.

 

[vanuck]

I think FLA pre-Zito was similar to where we could be headed if things don't change. They drafted Huberdeau, Barkov and Ekblad some years back but haven't really gone anywhere as a team for the longest time because of issues with depth and D. You could argue that they might've gone down the route that COL took when they had to 'rebuild' their original rebuild around Stastny, Duchene, ROR and Barrie and were going nowhere as well.

While a lot of what has made Florida successful was in place before Zito arrived, the new GM added his stamp to the roster by swapping out six of the top nine forwards. And he did it in a way that satisfied the team’s accountants.

Carter Verhaeghe, who has seven goals and 12 points in 13 games, is earning $1 million. Anthony Duclair and Alexander Wennberg, who have combined for four goals and 13 points, are on one-year deals worth $1.7 million and $2.25 million. And Patric Hornqvist, who was acquired from Pittsburgh in exchange for the more expensive Michael Matheson, has six goals and 12 points.

Link

Here's a guy who took full advantage of a flat cap that further compressed salaries of mid-tier players, who've pretty much been getting squeezed as part of a wider trend over the last few years - the perfect conditions for buyers to capitalize on. By recognizing this market inefficiency Zito was able to make some smart, low-cost additions to round out their depth while not giving up much of anything in the way of futures. Similar to what Holland did in his first year with the Oilers but even better.

Compare that to Benning... who primarily spent way too much time/attention chasing big-ticket names on the decline like OEL and Holtby.

More than anything, this core needs a strong supporting cast but you don't necessarily need to pay through the nose for it. My hope is whoever comes in next as GM can do something similar to what Zito did by freeing up a little cap space to make effective stopgap additions via UFA/trade for cheap that should help us be more competitive. Then when all the junk is finally off the books, that's when we go for it.

 

[MarkMM]

But he's able to add one good player a year from the draft, who's the last GM to be able to do that!

So with the team probably needing another 5 good players at least that just means we're only 5 years away from being a good team now.

Except with Benning's cap management we'll have to keep letting go of the good ones we have as the draft picks enter the scene with money wasted on a "character players" that can't play and bring no character.

 

[Hit the post]

Except with Benning's cap management we'll have to keep letting go of the good ones we have as the draft picks enter the scene with money wasted on a "character players" that can't play and bring no character.

No problem with a drafting guru. Just draft another home run!

 

[4Twenty]

I think FLA pre-Zito was similar to where we could be headed if things don't change. They drafted Huberdeau, Barkov and Ekblad some years back but haven't really gone anywhere as a team for the longest time because of issues with depth and D. You could argue that they might've gone down the route that COL took when they had to 'rebuild' their original rebuild around Stastny, Duchene, ROR and Barrie and were going nowhere as well.


Link

Here's a guy who took full advantage of a flat cap that further compressed salaries of mid-tier players, who've pretty much been getting squeezed as part of a wider trend over the last few years - the perfect conditions for buyers to capitalize on. By recognizing this market inefficiency Zito was able to make some smart, low-cost additions to round out their depth while not giving up much of anything in the way of futures. Similar to what Holland did in his first year with the Oilers but even better.

Compare that to Benning... who primarily spent way too much time/attention chasing big-ticket names on the decline like OEL and Holtby.

More than anything, this core needs a strong supporting cast but you don't necessarily need to pay through the nose for it. My hope is whoever comes in next as GM can do something similar to what Zito did by freeing up a little cap space to make effective stopgap additions via UFA/trade for cheap that should help us be more competitive. Then when all the junk is finally off the books, that's when we go for it.

Excellent post.