The Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild

[Do Make Say Think]

The idea of a game not matching up to the brand's expected tropes is a strange one, especially when MM's differences in relation to the Zelda series is what makes it a cult classic game.

If you look at Majora's Mask in the Zelda continuum, what did it add?

The answer is nothing. All the other games advance the plot (the eternal struggle between Ganon and Link + Zelda).

So when you told me, in 1999, that there was a new Zelda game coming soon I had expectations. Those expectations were not met whatsoever and that made me not want to play the game at all.

As you said, the game is a cult classic, not a classic; it is niche rather than mainstream (which is what Zelda is) and that is in no small part due to the poor branding. Majora's Mask is a cult classic because of it's gameplay, not despite the name.

Understanding what people expect out of brand is how you leverage it, MM was is a great example of how to fail to properly leverage an IP.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Link's Awakaning didn't advance the timeline either though and it is held in high regard.

Neither does any of the WW sequels or Minish Cap (which only adds to the 4 Swords plot).

Also the timeline really wasn't a big deal back in 99.

Hell TP has barely anything to do with the main lore either. Ganon is sort of shoe horned into the plot.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Link's Awakaning didn't advance the timeline either though and it is held in high regard.

Neither does any of the WW sequels or Minish Cap (which only adds to the 4 Swords plot).

Also the timeline really wasn't a big deal back in 99.

Hell TP has barely anything to do with the main lore either. Ganon is sort of shoe horned into the plot.

I did not mean that all the games involved the timeline, but that all the main games (the non-handheld ones, this distinction is important I feel) deal with Link + Zelda vs Ganon.

And that's another good reason why TP was so weak: it added nothing to the lore. I'm not a big story guy anymore (as in I don't care if a game has a bad story), but when it comes to a brand with established characters, there's baggage that you need to respect.

 

[JS19]

If you look at Majora's Mask in the Zelda continuum, what did it add?

The answer is nothing. All the other games advance the plot (the eternal struggle between Ganon and Link + Zelda).

So when you told me, in 1999, that there was a new Zelda game coming soon I had expectations. Those expectations were not met whatsoever and that made me not want to play the game at all.

As you said, the game is a cult classic, not a classic; it is niche rather than mainstream (which is what Zelda is) and that is in no small part due to the poor branding. Majora's Mask is a cult classic because of it's gameplay, not despite the name.

Understanding what people expect out of brand is how you leverage it, MM was is a great example of how to fail to properly leverage an IP.

First off, the Zelda continuum is a cluster****, no matter what Nintendo puts out with regards to the Hyrule Historia. We're talking about games that are for the most part, self-contained and treating them as if there's a larger saga. The larger continuum is flawed and clunky with regards to how each game progresses the plot. Nonetheless, there is progression from OOT's story as Link begins looking for (who the game implies is) Navi, and ends up starting off Majora's Mask as he ends up in Termina. As for the conclusion of the game, there are implications in terms of the Hero's Shade being OOT/MM's Link so it's clear that there are connections between OOT/MM and future Zelda games. Thus, I don't think it's fair to wipe that off and say MM has no progression when it's treated as having progression. To be honest, I'm not sure how rehashed battles featuring Link+Zelda against Ganon is plot progression. It's the same old battle being fought in different generations with no resolution to be had.

Understanding what people expect out of brand, indeed is how you leverage it, but that shouldn't end there. I would argue that one also needs to think about gameplay and how to push boundaries rather than stay comfortable within series confines. That being said, expectations is fine, but they should not hamper developers from trying something new once in a while. In fact, I think it's very ironic to be ironclad about expectations of Zelda gameplay considering how much has changed since Link's beginning on the NES. The series started with a top-down approach and drastically different dungeon design compared to the conversion to 3D during the N64/Gamecube/Wii eras. You'd be caught in the same old damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't scenario if you want games to fit the Zelda series tropes but continually punish the series for introducing fresh ways to play the game. In that case, that's a very easy way to stagnate a franchise and kill interest.

I think there's also something to be said about the changing opinion of Majora's Mask from then to now. It was (and still is) a cult classic, but it manages to find a way to reverberate throughout subsequent generations in spite of its lukewarm reception in 2000. To the point of people demanding a remake shortly after the release of Ocarina of Time 3D. What was originally perceived as a crappy and insanely difficult Zelda game to others, is now a unique and fresh game in The Legend of Zelda series.

The differences with Zelda conventions are all for the worse, IMO.

One of the great things about Zelda games are the dungeons. MM only had four.

Another great thing about Zelda games is the ability to explore the world at your own pace. But MM slaps a timer on your exploration.

It's an overrated game, IMO, that people tend to praise highly simply because it's "dark."

I'm not saying it's not a good game. But I wouldn't have it in my top 5 Zelda games, personally.

Even though they cut down on the dungeon content, the 4 that they did have in Majora's Mask were some of the most well-designed dungeons in the series IMO. I'm all for 8 dungeons, but I find that some dungeons tend to overstay their welcome and start to become a bit tedious (this isn't much of an issue in the older games). Also, the timer isn't that big of a deal. The game gives you plenty of time and space to explore without reaching the point of losing major progress. Moreover, I thought the timer added to the experience, but I'm well aware that's a hit/miss thing with players. I praise MM for things beyond your standard dark lore, the sidequest system was fantastic and enabled you to care about the people of Termina (whereas in OOT, Link was basically a piece of wood and didn't really allow the player to care for Hylians/Gorons/Zorans/etc). The final dungeon being one of Zelda's most atmospheric set pieces, and the soundtrack delivering on a lot of great music.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The thing about the timeline is Nintendo only really started to give a **** about it around when Wind Waker came out.

Oot makes vague connections to LttP but there wasn't much to it. And MM was a direct sequel to OoT.

WW comes out and now you have a game set as a far flung sequel to OoT and it just goes from there.

At that point they pretty much just throw the first 4 games out the window and pretty much pretend it all starts with OoT and you have to ignore four swords and stuff.

Curious to see where this game is set. I'm still guessing the child link storyline since they have abandoned the adult link/WW line (though I would love a game post WW where the ocean is gone and you have to pull the Master Sword out of Ganon's head)

Seems unlikely this is between SS and OoT

 

[Emperoreddy]

The only big holdover of Zelda tropes we can see so far in Breath of the Wild is the combat.

Z-Targeting based combat. The weapon variety offers a solid change of pace IMO (spears look fun to use) but everything else is changed. Lack of hearts as health, the total off the wheels gameplay as to some kind of linear path.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

If you look at Majora's Mask in the Zelda continuum, what did it add?

The answer is nothing. All the other games advance the plot (the eternal struggle between Ganon and Link + Zelda).

And that's one of the reasons why it's such an incredible game (at least to me, guy with the MM avy).

Aside from Awakening, it was really the first game in the series that tried to enter us into a different world and plot. It's a completely different game from the rest of the series. It's focus was more on character and atmosphere, more so than just "go to dungeon area, open dungeon, beat dungeon".

Every character is so fleshed out, so real, so interesting.

Look, when I first played the game, I didn't get it either. I was like, "only 4 dungeons? GAYYYY". Then I kept playing it, and I realized that it was special within the series. I love me some OoT, ALTTP, Twi Pri, and WW, but MM just sticks out like such a sore thumb in the most brilliant way.

And like JS19 said, the continuum is a gang ***** cluster****. It means nothing anymore.

--------------------------------------------

Now, regarding the new game, ****ING HYPED. Love that they're taking the series in a new direction, and I think the graphics are excellent. I'm just used to people having bad reactions to cell shading at this point, but it almost always ends being that the same people say "wow, this aged well" about 10 years later, which it does. WW and a game like Jet Set Radio still look great today, and those games are from consoles that arfe 3-4 generations old.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I praise MM for its interesting plot and extremely in depth sidequest system. That is the real meat of the game, and it is extremely well done. I cared about basically everyone in MM more than anyone in OoT.

Doesn't matter much. Wind Waker is my actual favorite 3D Zelda.

and that's what a lot of people have been asking for, a MM in depth crazy sidequest (like not just for gratitude crystals or bugs etc - but things that actual make sense and matter).

 

[blue425]

I'm not a Nintendo guy and I haven't played a Zelda since LttP, I was always the Sega kid growing up.

This game will sell systems.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

This is gorgeous and looks amazing.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Time speculation has begun!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1234504

The idea that the game creates a timeline convergence is pretty interesting (even if I don't buy it).

 

[MayDay]

Time speculation has begun!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1234504

The idea that the game creates a timeline convergence is pretty interesting (even if I don't buy it).

The previous console Zelda (Skyward Sword) was the very first Zelda in the timeline. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Nintendo wanted to bookend that with a Zelda that's at the other end of the timeline. The presence of technology and sic-fi elements certainly suggests that it's farther in the future than any Zelda to date.

Then again, it's hard to be certain. High technology apparently existed centuries BEFORE the events of Skyward Sword. Remember the ancient robots in the Lanayru Desert and time shift stones?

That would seem to suggest that all of the Zelda games so far exist in a post-technological world - in a world that exists after a technological civilization has fallen.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The rock salt descriptions along with the return of Korok's got my attention to the idea that it could be post Wind Waker (and they seem to be the same Korok's from that game). Plus the old man does look way to much like the King of Hyrule. Temple of Time looks just like OoT's (and some say the map is really similar too, but I don't see it myself).

Thinking about it I could see why Nintendo might go with a convergence idea. Get things back to one timeline branch for all future games and kill all confusion.

Plus Aonuma always seemed to care more about the lore than Miyamto (why it is so complicated in the first place).

A gamespot play through nixed exploring to get as much of the story in the demo as possible. More old man stuff and the introduction of "Calamity Ganon" which is basically a giant monster cloud eating the castle up.

Also this Link has been sleeping for 100 years.

 

[OmniSens]

Gonna start waiting by Best Buy tomorrow!

Oh man, I can't ****ing wait!!! Stanley cup win every season, or new Zelda game every year. Hmm!!!

 

[Daisy Jane]

The rock salt descriptions along with the return of Korok's got my attention to the idea that it could be post Wind Waker (and they seem to be the same Korok's from that game). Plus the old man does look way to much like the King of Hyrule. Temple of Time looks just like OoT's (and some say the map is really similar too, but I don't see it myself).

Thinking about it I could see why Nintendo might go with a convergence idea. Get things back to one timeline branch for all future games and kill all confusion.

Plus Aonuma always seemed to care more about the lore than Miyamto (why it is so complicated in the first place).

A gamespot play through nixed exploring to get as much of the story in the demo as possible. More old man stuff and the introduction of "Calamity Ganon" which is basically a giant monster cloud eating the castle up.

Also this Link has been sleeping for 100 years.

I like that. no more "Child" timeline, no more "Adult" timeline it all just merged together. I just watched a video that someone did that took all the information that was shown during game play - and his theory was, that it's a post apocalyptical Zelda. Something happened 100 years ago, (the Calamity, Gagon) and something happened to Link which needed him to go to sleep. So the story (his theory) is that it's going to focus very much on finding out what happened.

And it could explain why everything is so barren (though apparently Nintendo "removed" all the NPCS (lol or they haven't finished it yet ) and it could be why Link has to find and make everything himself. 100 years and the world practically ended.. why would you have rupees? (Maybe the "magical/mystical" elements save the Sheikah (which was a separate practice) eliminated (which is why there are no more fairies etc - this is just my theory now).

there was another video (before the E3) that really supported that this could be the reboot (then applying what we know now - it works) - and why they picked elements from all aspects of the Timeline:

Ocarina of Time (there is the Temple of time, hyrule field, death mountain etc)
Twilight Princess (snowpeak, Lake Hylia location)
Windwaker : vast oceans (never used to be any), Koroks etc
Skyward Sword: constant mentioning of Hylia, and old symbols (such as loftwings)


i have to admit - the more video breakdown i watch - the more excited i am try try this game out now. i am going to keep my WiiU Pre-order. but if they bundle this up with the NX, (complete with something Zelda looking on the system) - then for sure I will get i too.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I kept saying I was getting a WiiU as soon as Zelda was announced but I'm finding hard to justify considering the NX doesn't sound like it's that far away...

Seems silly to get a WiiU when Zelda sounds like it's coming out around the same time as the NX and, on the flip side, that makes me think the NX isn't going to be that much more powerful than the WiiU, because I can't be the only one feeling the same way. Why release it on the WiiU if most people that would have considered buying the system for it might be incentivized to wait for the NX?

It the WiiU version just a bone to the user base?

 

[Winger98]

I kept saying I was getting a WiiU as soon as Zelda was announced but I'm finding hard to justify considering the NX doesn't sound like it's that far away...

Seems silly to get a WiiU when Zelda sounds like it's coming out around the same time as the NX and, on the flip side, that makes me think the NX isn't going to be that much more powerful than the WiiU, because I can't be the only one feeling the same way. Why release it on the WiiU if most people that would have considered buying the system for it might be incentivized to wait for the NX?

It the WiiU version just a bone to the user base?

Didn't they do the same thing with Twilight Princess, releasing it on the gamecube and then on the Wii? I'm not sure it's a bone to the userbase as much as just making as much of a buck off of it as possible with getting in front of as large of an install base as possible.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Didn't they do the same thing with Twilight Princess, releasing it on the gamecube and then on the Wii? I'm not sure it's a bone to the userbase as much as just making as much of a buck off of it as possible with getting in front of as large of an install base as possible.

Yeah but the difference in power between the Wii and the GameCube was very small.

It's why I'd love to get a little information about the NX's power. If it runs Zelda at 60fps then it's a no-brainer, I'll wait for it.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

 

[vippe]

Yeah but the difference in power between the Wii and the GameCube was very small.

It's why I'd love to get a little information about the NX's power. If it runs Zelda at 60fps then it's a no-brainer, I'll wait for it.

With rumors about the hardware being all over the place it really would be nice to know what it will be hehe.. considering the Wii U is only about 350gigaflops surely it will have a better gpu. I much rather have a fully detailed games with 30FPS sharp and never dropping.

 

[PullHard]

DMST -- you realize you basically disagreed with me by saying they need to ditch the LttP/ OoT formula (I used OoT as my original base because of the 3D vs top down thing, but in terms of game play progression you are right, LttP is the original) and are happy for this new game

And then essentially dismiss MM because it does exactly what you just advocated for by changing the formula and feel of a Zelda game?

Admittedly, MM's game play is very similar to OoT, although I will argue that the shapeshifting masks and time restriction are quite a departure

Not angrily trying to confront you about this, but which is it? I'm only curious because I think I had a valid point, but you seemed to dismiss it really quickly

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The LttP formula is basically a set up for how the plot plays out, for the flow of the game if you will.

So yes, Majora's Mask definitely did away with that but went too far, for my taste with the 3 day system, the mask system etc....

The way I see it the only Zelda-thing about MM is Link: make the main character someone else and everything works just fine.

 

[JS19]

The LttP formula is basically a set up for how the plot plays out, for the flow of the game if you will.

So yes, Majora's Mask definitely did away with that but went too far, for my taste with the 3 day system, the mask system etc....

The way I see it the only Zelda-thing about MM is Link: make the main character someone else and everything works just fine.

Looking at what makes a Zelda game from a character/tropes-only perspective is flawed. Majora's Mask still has your standard dungeon-crawling, and it still has your standard good-vs-evil story (rehashing the same old Triforce lore isn't the sole reason that a Zelda game is a Zelda game, otherwise NES Zelda is technically not a Zelda game because it doesn't have 3 Triforce Pieces compared to modern games), which some would argue as being the bread-and-butter of the Zelda series.

Though, I can understand why the time system wouldn't be your cup of tea, even though I think they contribute to a much stronger exploration experience. At least compared to say OOT and TP suffering from giving the player too much space to do absolutely nothing but waste time and elicit boredom. Though, I can't exactly understand why masks are going too far. They're extensions to Link's abilities, which in turn makes him arguably far more versatile than other incarnations of Link.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

A franchise cannot be considered without taking into account it's characters and tropes, that's a huge part of what makes a franchise a franchise.

Now Link's Awakening is a good parallel to Majora's Mask and I loooooooved Link's Awakening which, from a plot perspective, is very similar to Majora's Mask: a direct sequel to the previous game in a faraway land. Thing is, Link's Awakening felt like a Zelda game while Majora's Mask did not (to me).

The masks just felt, to me, lame: I want to play as Link, not as some goofy looking thing.

 

[JS19]

A franchise cannot be considered without taking into account it's characters and tropes, that's a huge part of what makes a franchise a franchise.

Now Link's Awakening is a good parallel to Majora's Mask and I loooooooved Link's Awakening which, from a plot perspective, is very similar to Majora's Mask: a direct sequel to the previous game in a faraway land. Thing is, Link's Awakening felt like a Zelda game while Majora's Mask did not (to me).

The masks just felt, to me, lame: I want to play as Link, not as some goofy looking thing.

But it's not the only thing that makes a Zelda game, a Zelda game. There's more to a Zelda game than characters and tropes. In fact, the series has had games that moved away from familiar mythology, like Link's Awakening as you mentioned, and Minish Cap, in addition to Majora's Mask. That's why I mentioned the gameplay elements.