The Immature Team

[Bluelines]

They aren't performing.....

Matthews on pace to break the goal scoring record for the team (54). On pace for around 60.

Marner with a pace of 1.23 pts/gm. If he keeps his pace he is just under 90 points again (101 pts in an 82 game season). Injury is going to drop his numbers a bit.

Nylander on pace for 36 Goals and Over 70 points.


You have a real problem with differentiating 2 completely different arguments. I see you say "I'm sick of inconsistency" a lot, but generally it's a completely different argument.

The kids are consistent with scoring (GF: 3rd best in the league), are they consistent the other 50% of the time when they don't have the puck (GA: 5th worst)?

 

[18leafsfan18]

So wait a second... are they immature or not?

If they’re too young and immature to be successful as a team right now, then why are they paid so much money?

Is this really a (lol) “young mans league” or not?

Yes, they need to grow as players. Pretty simple concept and exactly what I said in that post.

Obviously it isn't effecting their performance every night, but it effect certain games.

This was all discussed multiple times over the last bunch of posts.

Your confusing their overall performance (which is better then any "stars" the leafs have had in a decade), with fine tuning their games and not becoming complacent.

2 completely different arguments your having, and assuming they are the same.

 

[18leafsfan18]

The kids are consistent with scoring (GF: 3rd best in the league), are they consistent the other 50% of the time when they don't have the puck (GA: 5th worst)?

I don't think the full blame of GA can be put on the F group, Which was the topic being discussed, i think.

If you look at the team's GA without the last slide, they have actually been as good as last year (I know that still isn't good enough), and I assume they will bring those numbers up going forward (Injuries, goalie slump and 2 really bad games)

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yes, they need to grow as players. Pretty simple concept and exactly what I said in that post.

Obviously it isn't effecting their performance every night, but it effect certain games.

This was all discussed multiple times over the last bunch of posts.

Your confusing their overall performance (which is better then any "stars" the leafs have had in a decade), with fine tuning their games and not becoming complacent.

2 completely different arguments your having, and assuming they are the same.

Nope.

I was repeatedly told on the one hand that it’s a “young mans game now”, and the entire rfa market has adapted to that.

So now that we’ve overpaid all of our star rfa’s under this “new market”, I’m now being told that they’re “too young and immature” to be successful as a team.

I’m sorry... it’s a BLATANT inconsistency.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Nope.

I was repeatedly told on the one hand that it’s a “young mans game now”, and the entire rfa market has adapted to that.

So now that we’ve overpaid all of our star rfa’s under this “new market”, I’m now being told that they’re “too young and immature” to be successful as a team.

I’m sorry... it’s a BLATANT inconsistency.

If you can't understand the difference then that's on you man.

Your not being told they are too young and immature to be a successful team.

We are talking about them not playing well for like 2 games this year, they need to learn that those 2 games can't happen. You learn that from being in the league. They took teams softly and got slapped in the face, Keefe said it publicly to let them know its unacceptable.

You are taking 2 totally different conversations and trying to merge them.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If you can't understand the difference then that's on you man.

Your not being told they are too young and immature to be a successful team.

We are talking about them not playing well for like 2 games this year, they need to learn that those 2 games can't happen. You learn that from being in the league. They took teams softly and got slapped in the face, Keefe said it publicly to let them know its unacceptable.

You are taking 2 totally different conversations and trying to merge them.

The post that I responded to (which started this thread between us) stated that the leafs core is only 22/23 and will mature and improve. To which I responded “wait a second, I thought we overpaid our star rfa’s because it’s a young mans league and the market changed”?

You simply can’t have it both ways. Either Dubas was right to overpay our rfa’s because it’s now a young mans league.... or we should be patient with our core because they’re so young and will continue to grow/mature.

It can’t be both.

I demand consistency. I DEMAND it.

 

[18leafsfan18]

The post that I responded to (which started this thread between us) stated that the leafs core is only 22/23 and will mature and improve. To which I responded “wait a second, I thought we overpaid our star rfa’s because it’s a young mans league and the market changed”?

You simply can’t have it both ways. Either Dubas was right to overpay our rfa’s because it’s now a young mans league.... or we should be patient with our core because they’re so young and will continue to grow/mature.

It can’t be both.

I demand consistency. I DEMAND it.

It absolutely can be both.

They are on pace to be breaking records as players right now (The numbers I already posted).

That doesn't mean they have reached their full potential.

Do you not understand how much of a good thing that is ?

Every player has the potential to grow every year into a better player, until their body just can't do it anymore and they slow down, or have injuries etc.

Look at Ovi, he is arguably the greatest goal scorer to ever play, and before they won the cup he redefined his a game a bit to get more out of it, and help the team more.

Edit: Also, why are you capitalizing words. I'm not going to read them any different.

 

[Mickey Marner]

We definitely have a leadership problem. It's entirely possible that none of our kids are leaders. Auston could mature into one, but otherwise I don't see it.

 

[al secord]

Tavares being the worst captain in team history and Andersen blaming everyone except himself, including the fans is why.

Rob Ramage pissed himself laughing at this one.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It absolutely can be both.

They are on pace to be breaking records as players right now (The numbers I already posted).

That doesn't mean they have reached their full potential.

Do you not understand how much of a good thing that is ?

Every player has the potential to grow every year into a better player, until their body just can't do it anymore and they slow down, or have injuries etc.

Look at Ovi, he is arguably the greatest goal scorer to ever play, and before they won the cup he redefined his a game a bit to get more out of it, and help the team more.

Edit: Also, why are you capitalizing words. I'm not going to read them any different.

So, when it comes to team success, it’s NOT a young mans league? The market HASN'T changed?
Then why did Dubas overpay so much?

These are the SPECIFIC rationalizations everyone here has made to defend Dubas’s overpayments.

You can’t have it both ways (but boy, are you ever trying). It either IS a young mans game, and Dubas paid fairly, or it ISN'T , and Dubas was taken to the cleaners.

 

[18leafsfan18]

So, when it comes to team success, it’s NOT a young mans team? The marked HASN'T changed?
Then why did Dubas overpay so much?

These are the SPECIFIC rationalizations everyone here has made to defend Dubas’s overpayments.

You can’t have it both ways (but boy, are you ever trying). It either IS a young mans game, and Dubas paid fairly, or it ISN'T , and Dubas was taken to the cleaners.

I guess the capitalization CONTINUES....

It is a young man's game. Dubas signed fair contracts (Not great contracts, not taken to the clearer contracts).

That has nothing to do with these players still learning and improving with each passing year.

Like I said Ovi was paid well before he made some changes to his game. Doesn't mean he wasn't worth the money before and doesn't mean he wasn't good up until that point of his career.

In your opinion, the day a player signs his contract he should never improve from that point forward ?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I guess the capitalization CONTINUES....

It is a young man's game. Dubas signed fair contracts (Not great contracts, not taken to the clearer contracts).

That has nothing to do with these players still learning and improving with each passing year.

Like I said Ovi was paid well before he made some changes to his game. Doesn't mean he wasn't worth the money before and doesn't mean he wasn't good up until that point of his career.

In your opinion, the day a player signs his contract he should never improve from that point forward ?

I was repeatedly told that the “rfa market has changed” because it’s now a “young mans league.”

I said “Ok. But I better DAMN WELL not see any ‘but they’re young, immature, inexperienced’ excuses the next few years.”

I was assured I wouldn’t. I was ASSURED I wouldn’t .

 

[Dekes For Days]

I was assured I wouldn’t. I was ASSURED I wouldn’t .

You weren't assured this at all. They got contracts that they had earned. This did not change their experience or age.

 

[18leafsfan18]

I was repeatedly told that the “rfa market has changed” because it’s now a “young mans league.”

I said “Ok. But I better DAMN WELL not see any ‘but they’re young, immature, inexperienced’ excuses the next few years.”

I was assured I wouldn’t. I was ASSURED I wouldn’t .

In your opinion, the day a player signs his contract he should never improve from that point forward ?

 

[egd27]

I was thinking about this, "immature" it could also mean immature in how they play the game. One dimensional offensive stars are common place in the OHL/WHL/QMJHL. Maybe Keefe is telling the players, playing an elite style on 50% of the ice is the kind of thing you'd expect from CHL players not $11 mil NHL pro's[/QUOTE]

That kind of thinking got the last guy run out town.

 

[Mess]

Is Keefe "The pot calling the kettle black" when it comes to immaturity?

He called his team immature after a 8-4 beating with both goalies giving up 4 goals and something that hadn't happen since 2015, and again after that 6-2 loss to Hawks.

How much blame is the rookie coach if he looks in the mirror of not having his team ready and not being blamed for the losses to Florida and Chicago where he was quick to point the finger at the players?

Hard to imagine if Babcock was still behind the bench that he wouldn't be taking a lot of heat for those exact same results.

 

[TOGuy14]

Without sounding overly pessimistic I have spent the past couple days thinking about it and wonder if Dubas has completely borked us with his big signings.

At the end of the day there isn't all that much to complain about with this team from a talent perspective, we are loaded top to bottom.

Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander are basically all at a PPG pace or better, they are delivering.

Our depth players have been excellent: Spezza, Mik, Hyman, Kap, Engvall

Really our biggest issue is we signed the big 4 to too much money. 3-4M would go a long way to fix what ails this team, adding a quality backup and a solid rugged D like Dillon.

Not sure where we go from here really as a team. No room to change things up.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Without sounding overly pessimistic I have spent the past couple days thinking about it and wonder if Dubas has completely borked us with his big signings.

At the end of the day there isn't all that much to complain about with this team from a talent perspective, we are loaded top to bottom.

Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander are basically all at a PPG pace or better, they are delivering.

Our depth players have been excellent: Spezza, Mik, Hyman, Kap, Engvall

Really our biggest issue is we signed the big 4 to too much money. 3-4M would go a long way to fix what ails this team, adding a quality backup and a solid rugged D like Dillon.

Not sure where we go from here really as a team. No room to change things up.

IMO 1 or both of Kapanen/Johnsson are on the move if not at trade deadline, then in offseason.

Edit: Money opens up in the offseason (Ceci, Barrie likely gone), Cap Raise.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

In your opinion, the day a player signs his contract he should never improve from that point forward ?

That’s not MY opinion. That’s why I like the old model where rfa’s get paid substantially less.

But when Dubas was handing out his unprecedented dramatic overpayments, the rationalization I continuously heard was that teams now win with youth, speed, and skill. As such, the rfa market has changed. They get paid like ufa’s now.

THATS what I was told. Repeatedly.

So now we have our overpaid rfa’s, and now the excuse is “what do you expect? They’re young rfa’s and are still improving”. The precise opposite argument that I heard before.

Im simply pointing out the inconsistencies. You can’t have it both ways.
Either it’s a new market where teams win with youth (and Dubas didn’t overpay), or young players are immature, make mistakes, and are still growing (so the market HASNT changed) and Dubas overpaid.

It can’t be both.

 

[ruaware41]

For whatever Twittified reason, the notion of a talented young team learning (ie experience) to win through defeat (repeatedly) is too obscure to be true for many (most?) in Leafs Nation.

Depending on the streak, these threads don’t pop up. It’s almost like our team reflects the impetuous nature of its fan base.

They've lost 3 first round matchups in a row. You want them to keep improving not regressing

 

[18leafsfan18]

That’s not MY opinion. That’s why I like the old model where rfa’s get paid substantially less.

But when Dubas was handing out his unprecedented dramatic overpayments, the rationalization I continuously heard was that teams now win with youth, speed, and skill. As such, the rfa market has changed. They get paid like ufa’s now.

THATS what I was told. Repeatedly.

So now we have our overpaid rfa’s, and now the excuse is “what do you expect? They’re young rfa’s and are still improving”. The precise opposite argument that I heard before.

Im simply pointing out the inconsistencies. You can’t have it both ways.
Either it’s a new market where teams win with youth (and Dubas didn’t overpay), or young players are immature, make mistakes, and are still growing (so the market HASNT changed) and Dubas overpaid.

It can’t be both.

How do you not understand this ?

It's so basic its not even funny.

Matthews is on pace to set a record on a team with over a 100 year history.

Marner is on pace for a another approx 90 point season, even with his injury this year.

They are paid appropriately. They are already all star level players on the team. ALREADY.

THEY STILL HAVE MORE POTENTIAL.

I even included caps. Just for you.

A contract isn't bad because players can still improve. It actually makes a contract better.

 

[ITM]

They've lost 3 first round matchups in a row. You want them to keep improving not regressing

Absolutely. Three first round matchups in a row. That's descriptive to a point. Go further.

Which teams did we face? What phase of the rebuild/retool were we at? And do the answers to those two questions bear reasonable weight in consideration to the demands that our club (at that time) simply impose their will against those clubs and push through to the second round?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I was thinking about this, "immature" it could also mean immature in how they play the game. One dimensional offensive stars are common place in the OHL/WHL/QMJHL. Maybe Keefe is telling the players, playing an elite style on 50% of the ice is the kind of thing you'd expect from CHL players not $11 mil NHL pro's

Who knows what he meant. Maybe he even just used the wrong word too. Sometimes we all say things in a public setting that we understood but maybe it was misunderstood. My guess though is your line of thinking is likely what he meant if I was betting on it. and to go a bit farther I am sure he is biting his lip a bit with Freddy and Matty. He knows nothing good will happen if he calls a spade a spade with either. But we all know it. Freddy is crapping da bed recently. and Matty is having too many games where he goes for a Sunday skate. Hard to come down personally on either because there are nights when Matty looks like the world #1 and there have been nights where freddy won us games we should have lost.

 

[ruaware41]

Absolutely. Three first round matchups in a row. That's descriptive to a point. Go further.

Which teams did we face? What phase of the rebuild/retool were we at? And do the answers to those two questions bear reasonable weight in consideration to the demands that our club (at that time) simply impose their will against those clubs and push through to the second round?

I think at some point you have to be able to exceed expectations if you're going to be a contender, at least 1/3 times you'd think instead of just going with the we were the underdog so it's fine narrative. Going into that first round series against Boston the first time, they weren't considered the great team they are today but had questions of being washed up and their youth being too inexperienced. The way they are viewed today we could be viewed as such. I remember how they were perceived very distinctly. On paper we were the better team. Bruins (and the Blues) were also very lucky to even make the final next time around. This entire Stanley Cup playoffs was a farce because of..... Underdogs actually exceeding expectations to win even a round or two. At the end of the day they played trash teams en route to the final.

Anyway I'm not sure why you focused on that. If they indeed do "learn" from experience and losing you'd expect gradual increase over time, not 3 straight first round exits in the playoffs to struggling to even make the show. That was the point. So painting the fans as irrational for not liking the prospect of facing clear regression isn't fair.

 

[hobarth]

They have to decide to care. Guys like Crosby, McDavid, and Bergeron don’t take nights off (if they do it’s extremely rare).Too often our best guys decide to coast through games or throw in the towel when the going gets tough.

They’re capable of playing a full game and completing comebacks, but they still lack that killer instinct when they have a lead and aren’t consistent with their effort.

Yeah our defence has been hit hard with injuries and the goaltending has left a lot to be desired recently, but that’s still no excuse for not bringing it every day. They’ve got the coach and system now to thrive, time to start showing up and accomplish something.

Coast/throw in the towel, really?

If you ask the players, do you guys do these things, I know none of them feel that that's what happening. As a person who has played varying levels of different sports I understand that some days you're in the zone and others you're way out of it. There's no rhyme or reason for the different levels of ability from the same person but it does happen. If you look to the A you'd see a significant number of players that can deliver an NHL game often but the reason they aren't NHL players is they can't deliver often enough.

The players that can deliver their best game every shift, every game, every year are elite, there's maybe 3 such players in the NHL. The closest TO has to elite is probably JT, his effort and productivity are predictable. There are players with even more talent and they are elite but like JT they aren't always rewarded for their effort, one game they get 4 points and the next zero, in the zero games you can't say they coasted or threw in the towel.