The Immature Team

[Nithoniniel]

Here's the thing. All these platitudes don't matter. This happened a lot under Babcock, mostly stopped happening under Keefe, only to creep back now. So they need to figure out what actually is behind that difference. Saying "we need to show some pride" or "we need to start on time" might sound good, but it's not a tangible plan. Players will always intend to start on time, they always intend to do the work they are supposed to. Somewhere along the line from there to team results, something goes wrong. They need to actually identify that and work out how to change it. It's not just to tell each other "let's start on time this game" and then they go out and do it.

Solutions and not platitudes is what we need, basically.

 

[Morbo]

You're right. We need our goaltender to make a f***ing save.

Once Freddy comes out of this, assuming he's following historical pattern, the Leafs will magically be more "mature" and more "committed defensively".

 

[Mess]

I believe the Leafs younger players have more of a self entitlement issues than immaturity. IMO

Maybe those things are connected when it comes to effort and shows in their play.

After getting embarrassed 8-4 in Florida and getting called out by Keefe as immaturity, didn't seem to matter as a few days later he is calling them out again for that Chicago blowout.

Big contracts can lead to complacency, particularly when they were given and not earned.

 

[ITM]

It's almost like people on the message forum are reacting to what happens on the ice...

Precisely, Stephen. Like a mood ring, or a Magic Eight Ball...Amongst some, there's no sense of perspective. But there's a whole lot of absence/silence when the schadenfreude du jour suddenly contrasts the complaint.

William Nylander should be a byword to that effect at this point. At least this month. Perhaps next month, it's Freddie Andersen.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

This 2nd half is a true test of Dubie's strategy. Can a high powered offense beat a defensive first strategy in 2nd half of season and even more in playoff type hockey where time and space is reduced by both extra effort and NHL reffing game management? Last year with Tampa and Toronto it clearly failed.

The entire toughness and immaturity thing is very hard to measure. But I do believe having D vets with 500+ games played is a huge asset come playoff time except those Pittsburgh teams which were clearly the exception. But then again having Crosby at his prime is a completely different animal too. and a young hot money goalie which league did not figure out yet helped too.

 

[Trapper]

Time to either get it or not. These are the things Ovi said.
No matter how good you think an individual is, no matter how good you think a GM is, no GM anywhere can predict what pieces switched finally give you that A-ha moment. When you become a well oiled dominant team. Everyone scores, everyone defends, everyone forechecks and you can swap players in and out and the franchise system keeps going.
It's why Pittsburgh can suffer injuries and keep going. Boston as well. It's why Chicago can win 3 Cups.
A team needs to find it's quality calibre groove. You can have a great collection and average team. You can have a good collection and a great team. If you knew the formula you'd be a billionaire.

 

[LeafGrief]

I think maturity is a misused word. I believe it is entirely due to the age of our players, but I think it's used as a replacement for: drive, will to win, competiveness, consistency, leadership, and a bunch of other stuff. If my office and my beer league hockey teams are any indication, actual maturity doesn't mean squat. I play with guys who are natural born leaders and don't give a single damn about winning a hockey game. I play with young guys who have to win. Actual maturity means nothing.

Of the words that get confused for maturity, I think drive and its cousin "will to win" are the most important ones. Some people are born hungry to win and others learn to be hungry. Looking at teams around the league, I think Crosby and the Penguins were born hungry and lost their drive a little bit after their first cup. (The team struggled to get contender level depth for a few years, but that's beside the point). Crosby and Malkin were playoff heroes almost the moment they touched the ice. Other players didn't develop that drive until they'd been in the league for a long time. Ovi was a playoff superstar from minute one, but as he got hungrier and hungrier he developed a stronger two way game. That team always felt like it had to learn how to "want it". Some guys are born with the hunger, some take longer to get there. Some keep it after a win, some take a few years to get it back.

When I look at the Leafs I see Matthews as a guy who is hungry. I think he wants to win deep, deep down, and that's why we're seeing him blossom this year despite the team's relative struggles. I think Rielly wants to win. I think Marner wants to win. Kappy would rather gnaw his leg off than lose. The whole team are competitive guys and I certainly don't mean to disparage the players who I didn't list, but I think that we all want to see the team as a whole take the next step in finding their drive. Every team and every player will be different in when/how they get there. Frankly, losing to the Bruins two years in a row doesn't seem to have impacted our guys in the regular season so far, but we will see if they've learned anything for the playoffs. It's hard to draw parallels between former cup winning teams taking the regular season easy and the Leafs with our lack of success, but I do think that it's tough to judge maturity in the regular season. I think the team has been excellent and highly competitive under Keefe and are playing like a clear-cut playoff team. A lot of that is just based on the strength of the roster, but it's hard to argue with results. I place almost no stock in how a team performs after a goalie lets in a fistful of stinkers, you'll never find a team who plays hard to come back from a 6-2 deficit every time.

The playoff series that I watched last spring showed a Leafs team that was playing hard and looked hungry, but who suffered from bad coaching, a suspension to a key player, and were victimized by a ridiculous powerplay. Of all the things that caused us to lose that series, I don't think that drive and will to win were the culprits. Obviously I want to see more effort and drive, but it's not something that concerns me about this team. As for the regular season, I think that we pay far too much attention to individual games. We haven't been starting on time lately, big deal. That's a micro trend that should not be extrapolated to team-level discussions about drive and will to win. The team has been 1000x better at starting on time under Keefe than Babcock, so a tiny slip here and there should not be cause for alarm. I hate to be flippant when we aren’t even in a playoff spot, but the playoffs are really the only time where drive and will to win really matter.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The playoff series that I watched last spring showed a Leafs team that was playing hard and looked hungry, but who suffered from bad coaching, a suspension to a key player, and were victimized by a ridiculous powerplay.

Yup

 

[egd27]

Andersen is the immature one. He has costed this team 8 points.

sigh

 

[Mess]

This 2nd half is a true test of Dubie's strategy.

Maybe they're missing a Marleau and Hainsey veteran leadership group if the complaint is immaturity.

Immaturity level isn't measurable by analytics when assembling a team using HockeyPuck, as that comes from GM experience as to what it takes to win and surround young players with vets for development purposes and overall success.

 

[Morgs]

what about the nights where andy stole points its a 2 way street but keep going!

Andersen has been worse more often this season than good. I think its fair to say we've won in spite of him more times than we've won because of him, but go off.

Love the guy, know he's gonna bounce back... but he's pretty obviously the issue on this short slide.

 

[Bluelines]

Could Keefe's reference to maturity be linked to poor decision making skills and correct prioritization skills this team lacks?

For example, would Keefe had preferred if this team spend their free time in Fla getting ready for what was one of the most important games of the year, or spend their time chasing skirts, getting boozed up and generally doing what 20- ish boys do?

When I was a little boy, I use to make sure my week revolved around wing night at the local watering hole, the most important thing to me was having beers with the boys, eating wings, chasing skirts. A few years into this practice, I noticed people who always performed worse then me in school were, buying cars, buying houses, getting married going on trips south, they had their life figured out at a young age but I never had a penny to my name. That was one of those points in my life that I decided that I needed to grow up, be more mature and take control of my life. I did and thank god I found a good woman and have been fortunate to have a great family and challenging career.

I guess the point is, you get out of life what you want. If you want to be the party boy, you'll be the party boy, if you want to be the responsible person that actually accomplishes your goals, you'll do that. If you want to be the party boy in Miami, you'll get that but if you have not put in the proper preparation you wont be the guy winning that game. I think that is what Keefe was saying, his players didn't give respect to their opponents by putting in the correct preparation that they needed to to win the FL game or the CB game.

What we do know is Keefe intentionally said this public to get a specific response from his team, it was not said publicly by mistake.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Could Keefe's reference to maturity be linked to poor decision making skills and correct prioritization skills this team lacks?

For example, would Keefe had preferred if this team spend their free time in Fla getting ready for what was one of the most important games of the year, or spend their time chasing skirts, getting boozed up and generally doing what 20- ish boys do?

When I was a little boy, I use to make sure my week revolved around wing night at the local watering hole, the most important thing to me was having beers with the boys, eating wings, chasing skirts. A few years into this practice, I noticed people who always performed worse then me in school were, buying cars, buying houses, getting married going on trips south, they had their life figured out at a young age but I never had a penny to my name. That was one of those points in my life that I decided that I needed to grow up, be more mature and take control of my life. I did and thank god I found a good woman and have been fortunate to have a great family and challenging career.

I guess the point is, you get out of life what you want. If you want to be the party boy, you'll be the party boy, if you want to be the responsible person that actually accomplishes your goals, you'll do that. If you want to be the party boy in Miami, you'll get that but if you have not put in the proper preparation you wont be the guy winning that game. I think that is what Keefe was saying, his players didn't give respect to their opponents by putting in the correct preparation that they needed to to win the FL game or the CB game.

What we do know is Keefe intentionally said this public to get a specific response from his team, it was not said publicly by mistake.

I completely agree with this.

Tons on here have already written off these players saying they are "immature". People act like they aren't 22-23 years old.

Keefe saying that was completely the right move IMO. Let them know they need to smarten up.

 

[Craig Button]

what about the nights where andy stole points its a 2 way street but keep going!

Which game?
Frederik Andersen

 

[TakeTheBody]

The team is young, immature still. But very talented. Funny thing is the fan base is even more immature and not quite as talented...lol

 

[cupcrazyman]

Trade all three of the overpaid kids for grizzled vets over 35 years of age.

Vets must also be former Leafs lol

 

[18leafsfan18]

The team is young, immature still. But very talented. Funny thing is the fan base is even more immature and not quite as talented...lol

One of the best posts I have seen in a long time.

 

[Stamkos4life]

It's almost like people on the message forum are reacting to what happens on the ice...

Pretty crazy idea huh?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Could Keefe's reference to maturity be linked to poor decision making skills and correct prioritization skills this team lacks?

For example, would Keefe had preferred if this team spend their free time in Fla getting ready for what was one of the most important games of the year, or spend their time chasing skirts, getting boozed up and generally doing what 20- ish boys do?

When I was a little boy, I use to make sure my week revolved around wing night at the local watering hole, the most important thing to me was having beers with the boys, eating wings, chasing skirts. A few years into this practice, I noticed people who always performed worse then me in school were, buying cars, buying houses, getting married going on trips south, they had their life figured out at a young age but I never had a penny to my name. That was one of those points in my life that I decided that I needed to grow up, be more mature and take control of my life. I did and thank god I found a good woman and have been fortunate to have a great family and challenging career.

I guess the point is, you get out of life what you want. If you want to be the party boy, you'll be the party boy, if you want to be the responsible person that actually accomplishes your goals, you'll do that. If you want to be the party boy in Miami, you'll get that but if you have not put in the proper preparation you wont be the guy winning that game. I think that is what Keefe was saying, his players didn't give respect to their opponents by putting in the correct preparation that they needed to to win the FL game or the CB game.

What we do know is Keefe intentionally said this public to get a specific response from his team, it was not said publicly by mistake.

Good to know there was more than one of us. I got a funny feeling their were/are a lot more guys with same mentality. It was a big part of the hockey culture for many years. But that is changing too. You'd be shocked at how many guys in the 70s, 80s and 90's still practiced the old ways. These young kids don't eat the chicken wings, drink da beer and party like its 1999. It is a much more professional game now then it ever was. I mean who cares if Freddy went to Sawgrass to play the island hole. I kinda envy him for getting a tee time. I highly doubt these kids went out to South Beach to drink. Any of us would have loved to spent 2 days on the beach getting some rays and taking in the sights or playing a round of golf. Obviously team wanted to go. The team booked it for them. and maybe just maybe too much R&R was a bad thing after all. I mean with a weeks break only a week away you'd think maybe the GM would have thought about that one.

 

[Bluelines]

Good to know there was more than one of us. I got a funny feeling their were/are a lot more guys with same mentality. It was a big part of the hockey culture for many years. But that is changing too. You'd be shocked at how many guys in the 70s, 80s and 90's still practiced the old ways. These young kids don't eat the chicken wings, drink da beer and party like its 1999. It is a much more professional game now then it ever was. I mean who cares if Freddy went to Sawgrass to play the island hole. I kinda envy him for getting a tee time. I highly doubt these kids went out to South Beach to drink. Any of us would have loved to spent 2 days on the beach getting some rays and taking in the sights or playing a round of golf. Obviously team wanted to go. The team booked it for them. and maybe just maybe too much R&R was a bad thing after all. I mean with a weeks break only a week away you'd think maybe the GM would have thought about that one.

I was thinking about this, "immature" it could also mean immature in how they play the game. One dimensional offensive stars are common place in the OHL/WHL/QMJHL. Maybe Keefe is telling the players, playing an elite style on 50% of the ice is the kind of thing you'd expect from CHL players not $11 mil NHL pro's

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I completely agree with this.

Tons on here have already written off these players saying they are "immature". People act like they aren't 22-23 years old.

Keefe saying that was completely the right move IMO. Let them know they need to smarten up.

Our young rfa stars were given those outrageous contracts based on the argument of “It’s a young mans game now.”

Now that those stars aren’t succeeding it’s “What do you expect? They’re too young. It’s a veterans league.”

Im just sick of the inconsistencies. I’m SICK of them.

 

[daveleaf]

As this team is constructed and the style of play that they are continually trying to play, they will never be a successful team. Maturity comes from the top and I don't believe Dubas was the man for this job. Face it, Hunter sat Ovechkin for how long? It finally sunk in a couple of years later and came to fruition under Trotz. There are too many of the same on this team, we got less chippier when we traded Kadri and for all you know it all's out there that keep on bringing up that suspension was Kadri doing anything different than Kassian was the other night? Watch the game, legs being stuck out to take out knees and right in front of officials.

Nylander is having a great offensive season but his defensive game stinks. I don't have any faith in Dubas to deal with the assets we have to get what we need.

Let's be honest. Pat Burns, God rest his soul, did way more with less than anyone else in this city. With this team, it would be his way or the highway and they would be successful. Team defence is the only way to win consistently in this league. In a decade from now, if this group of players doesn't come away with at least three rings they have all failed.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Our young rfa stars were given those outrageous contracts based on the argument of “It’s a young mans game now.”

Now that those stars aren’t succeeding it’s “What do you expect? They’re too young. It’s a veterans league.”

Im just sick of the inconsistencies. I’m SICK of them.

They aren't performing.....

Matthews on pace to break the goal scoring record for the team (54). On pace for around 60.

Marner with a pace of 1.23 pts/gm. If he keeps his pace he is just under 90 points again (101 pts in an 82 game season). Injury is going to drop his numbers a bit.

Nylander on pace for 36 Goals and Over 70 points.


You have a real problem with differentiating 2 completely different arguments. I see you say "I'm sick of inconsistency" a lot, but generally it's a completely different argument.

 

[Bluelines]

I kinda think the young players were getting set up in a way. When you become a leader of people, taking over from someone else, you can either do things your way or do things the way things have always been done. If you chose to do things the way things have always been done, you will probably get the same results and probably experience the same fate as the previous leader.

If you chose to do things your way, the struggle is to convince the people that are following you that your "new" way is the best way. You can choose the drill Sargent approach (Babcock), it's my way or the highway or you can do the collaborative approach, look for feedback from your new team, implement changes that the team would like to see (double shifting, more ice time, systems that drive offence), while gently inserting some of your own changes (improved special teams). When you have a particularly stubborn group or you have a process change that is not going to be well received (commitment to defence, commitment to preparation at the detriment of play time), you allow the team to do things their way (going down a day early for Florida play time), until they fail miserably (Fla game, CB game), then you implement the change you want to see (Step 1: Calling the team immature publicly, Step 2 Implement painful change)).

Keefes over the top, lets do everything the team wants approach since he's been coach, leads me to think that Keefe was playing cat and mouse all long with the players, waiting for them to fail doing things "their way", when "their way" does not work well (fail epicly), the players basically hand Keefe the ultimate control position to implement significant and painful change.

For me, the desire to purposefully and publicly admonish his team, after being that "fun guy" coach for the last 2 months, is more significant that the words he spoke.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

They aren't performing.....

Matthews on pace to break the goal scoring record for the team (54). On pace for around 60.

Marner with a pace of 1.23 pts/gm. If he keeps his pace he is just under 90 points again (101 pts in an 82 game season). Injury is going to drop his numbers a bit.

Nylander on pace for 36 Goals and Over 70 points.


You have a real problem with differentiating 2 completely different arguments. I see you say "I'm sick of inconsistency" a lot, but generally it's a completely different argument.

So wait a second... are they immature or not?

If they’re too young and immature to be successful as a team right now, then why are they paid so much money?

Is this really a (lol) “young mans league” or not?