The "I guess we're tanking" thread--Projections

Doohickie

Ft Worth (from Bflo)
Feb 16, 2013
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I wish they'd just call up most of our prospects and give them some time playing. Tank it properly.

Be careful about that. The intention is to give them NHL experience but you might just ruin their spirit by putting them into an endless situation of losing. Then you have to jettison them or teach them how to win again.

The Sabres had Grigorenko, Zadorov, Ristolainen, Girgensons, all projected to be pretty good players. Of them, Grigorenko never amounted to much and was traded and at 24 is back in Russia, probably brought up too soon. Zadorov developed attitude problems with the Sabres and was also shipped out, but has finally righted the ship and is playing well for the Avs. Gigensons was a first round pick but doesn't sniff the top 6 anymore; he's more of a defensive specialist now. Only Ristolainen seems to be fulfilling his potential with the Sabres.

There were other promising players that were rushed up to the Sabres during Buffalo's tank years (and don't kid yourself, a tank can be several seasons long before the fruits are ripe) that never paid dividends with the Sabres. If the Blues are going to tank it might be best to hold prospects back in the A for a long as possible, build a winning culture there, and then bring them up when the high draft picks are ready for the big time.
 

Doohickie

Ft Worth (from Bflo)
Feb 16, 2013
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I don't think you realize just how badly you have to play for an entire season to have a top 5 pick locked down.

I do. And it's pretty bad. The low point for the Sabres was a home game against the Coyotes that the fans actually cheered when the Coyotes won. That game meant the difference between getting a shot at McDavid (and eventually ending up with Eichel) versus Dylan Strome.

You may like to think you'd never sink that low as to root against your own team in the hopes of getting a better draft pick, but a tank does ugly things to a team and its fans.
 

TK 421

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Sep 12, 2007
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I do. And it's pretty bad. The low point for the Sabres was a home game against the Coyotes that the fans actually cheered when the Coyotes won. That game meant the difference between getting a shot at McDavid (and eventually ending up with Eichel) versus Dylan Strome.

You may like to think you'd never sink that low as to root against your own team in the hopes of getting a better draft pick, but a tank does ugly things to a team and its fans.

I remember the '05-'06 season and it took having Mike Kitchen as HC and Patrick Lalime starting every game in combo with a much worse roster than we currently have to edge Pittsburgh for 1st OVA. I gladly cheered on the tank that year and our "prize" was Erik ****ing Johnson. I don't regret cheering for a tank in the slightest, we were a mess. But it would have been nice to get a franchise forward out of that debacle for our very first time picking 1st OVA.
 
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steinerecliner

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May 15, 2018
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I remember the '05-'06 season and it took having Mike Kitchen as HC and Patrick Lalime starting every game in combo with a much worse roster than we currently have to edge Pittsburgh for 1st OVA. I gladly cheered on the tank that year and our "prize" was Erik ****ing Johnson. I don't regret cheering for a tank in the slightest, we were a mess. But it would have been nice to get a franchise forward out of that debacle for our very first time picking 1st OVA.

Yeah and with that class, still heart breaking. What could have been.
 

carter333167

Registered User
Apr 24, 2013
6,958
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1. We need to maintain a .644 points percentage the rest of the way to hit 95 points
2. We are at at .467 points percentage.
3. We are tied for third worst in points percentage with 4 teams.
4. There are 11 teams at points percentage of .500 or lower.


My prediction remains that we will finish in the 11-15 slot for the draft.
 

Mike Liut

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The team is not going to tank. The team also is VERY unlikely to make the playoffs.

In sum, the season is a waste and we probably won't need to tune into the draft before the 2nd round.


I’m afraid you’re right. Too good to tank, too bad to make the playoffs
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,257
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Wow, that was some class. And my Sabres chose Dennis Persson. Never played in the NHL.
Anaheim [Mark Mitera] and Montreal [David Fischer] feel your pain. I think when people look back at that draft class, they're going to say there were a handful of good players but it was mostly a weak class.
 

Doohickie

Ft Worth (from Bflo)
Feb 16, 2013
794
419
The team is not going to tank. The team also is VERY unlikely to make the playoffs.

In sum, the season is a waste and we probably won't need to tune into the draft before the 2nd round.

I’m afraid you’re right. Too good to tank, too bad to make the playoffs

Anaheim [Mark Mitera] and Montreal [David Fischer] feel your pain. I think when people look back at that draft class, they're going to say there were a handful of good players but it was mostly a weak class.

It’s only just begun!

And I feel the Blues fans' pain. I've always had a favorable impression of the team, but at this point they seem an awful lot like the pre-tank Sabres. Sooner or later the valiant race to 9th place in the conference just won't be good enough. Over on the Sabres forum where I do most of my posting (not HFBoards), there was all out war over whether the Sabres were tanking or not, whether they should or not, whether it's ever worth it. Honestly, the years of suffering we endured were not worth Reinhart, Eichel and Mittelstadt. However, the covert tank that got us Dahlin finally makes it seem like the Sabres can crawl out of their eternal mediocrity.

*If* the Blues tank, the long time fans will endure it. You have to stick with them through the highs and the lows. But it will be painful, and it will likely be more than just a single tank year. In the grand sweep of history though, if they can build a contender like the Wings, Hawks, Penguins (and maybe the Sabres... maybe?) it will be worth it. Hang in there. It may be a while, but it will get better.
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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And I feel the Blues fans' pain. I've always had a favorable impression of the team, but at this point they seem an awful lot like the pre-tank Sabres. Sooner or later the valiant race to 9th place in the conference just won't be good enough. Over on the Sabres forum where I do most of my posting (not HFBoards), there was all out war over whether the Sabres were tanking or not, whether they should or not, whether it's ever worth it. Honestly, the years of suffering we endured were not worth Reinhart, Eichel and Mittelstadt. However, the covert tank that got us Dahlin finally makes it seem like the Sabres can crawl out of their eternal mediocrity.

*If* the Blues tank, the long time fans will endure it. You have to stick with them through the highs and the lows. But it will be painful, and it will likely be more than just a single tank year. In the grand sweep of history though, if they can build a contender like the Wings, Hawks, Penguins (and maybe the Sabres... maybe?) it will be worth it. Hang in there. It may be a while, but it will get better.
I know you mean well, but this is the most condescending post you’ve made here.
 

Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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If I am Doug Armstrong, my first priority would be obtaining another 2020 1st.

First priority should be identifying what is wrong with this team. We have good players. We also have good, exciting young players. Throwing another tire on the tire fire does nothing to help put out the fire.

Step #1 - Figure out the problem
Step #2 - Fix the Problem
Step #3 - Hire a coach (if that wasn't done in step #2)
Step #4 - Worry about building the team/assets
 

Stupendous Yappi

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First priority should be identifying what is wrong with this team. We have good players. We also have good, exciting young players. Throwing another tire on the tire fire does nothing to help put out the fire.

Step #1 - Figure out the problem
Step #2 - Fix the Problem
Step #3 - Hire a coach (if that wasn't done in step #2)
Step #4 - Worry about building the team/assets
The longer this goes on, the more I start to question the bolded. They weren't a playoff team last year. They aren't a playoff team this year. What are we basing the notion on, that these are good players? (I realize its a generalization about individuals.) But my point is that maybe the talent level on this team has been overestimated.
 

bleedblue1223

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Jan 21, 2011
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The longer this goes on, the more I start to question the bolded. They weren't a playoff team last year. They aren't a playoff team this year. What are we basing the notion on, that these are good players? (I realize its a generalization about individuals.) But my point is that maybe the talent level on this team has been overestimated.

I think we overestimated some of the secondary parts, and underestimated how bad some of secondary or aging parts are. We expected the 3rd line to be another 2nd line. This 3rd line reminds me of the Roy/Stewart days.
 

TruBlu

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Feb 7, 2016
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It seems to me that our main problems are a lack of a viable system, lack of direction, and a team that has little to no chemistry. I think some of that will be removed this offseason. I see Jbo, Gunnar, and Maroon walking. I still think we have a bunch of guys who fail at playing two way hockey. I wish we'd make a decision on what direction the team is going to go, and then stick with it. It seems like DA threw the "speedy" vision out the window just to address the scoring issue we had last year. Unfortunately, with the exception of ROR, those guys seem to have been propped up by the lines they were on last year and aren't producing here like they did last year. I don't care if we don't make the playoffs as long as I see a concerted effort to stick to the plan and continue the drive to get faster.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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The longer this goes on, the more I start to question the bolded. They weren't a playoff team last year. They aren't a playoff team this year. What are we basing the notion on, that these are good players? (I realize its a generalization about individuals.) But my point is that maybe the talent level on this team has been overestimated.

Past performance is something that can't just be ignored.

Every single one of our D men is having their worst season in years defensively. I think some of it is a decrease in defensive play from the forwards, but our entire back end is not playing as well as they have before. The scheme might be causing it, but their actual play has also been objectively worse than they have actually played in the past.

Petro is on pace for 34 points, which would be the lowest total of his career in a season where he played 50+ games. His current lowest is 37 points and that was in 73 games (41.5 point pace). Every other year has seen him at a 45 point pace or better.

Parayko is on pace for 26 points, which is noticeably lower than the 35 points he has consistently achieved in his 3 year NHL career.

Bozak is on pace for 34 points, which is woefully behind the 43-55 point pace he has achieved in each of the last 7 seasons.

Tarasenko is on pace for 53 points and 24 goals. Those would each be dramatically lower than anything he is done in the last 4 years.

Those are 4 guys who are essentially having career-worst seasons at the moment. 3 of them are unquestionably in the 'core' and among the the most 8 important players on the roster. There is tangible evidence that Petro, Parayko and Tarasenko are better players than they have been this season. It wasn't blind optimism that led us to think they were good players. They have each demonstrated over several seasons that they are very good players who are better than their current play and that is something that people around the league would agree on. It is an insanely uphill argument to say that Petro, Parayko, and Tarasenko weren't actually that good in the past and were simply overestimated.

Schenn is playing right about at his career average this season after a career-year last season. It could be that last year was the outlier and this is who Schenn really is. But again, thinking he is better than his current level of play was not simply blind optimism and overestimation based on nothing. He was a 70 point player in the NHL last year. He demonstrated that he is absolutely good enough to be a 2C for a good NHL team (his expected role this year).

Perron is playing at a 49 point pace, which is right where people expected him to be. He is playing like a good player. Not an elite player, but 49 points out of your 3rd or 4th best winger is generally acceptable for a playoff team.

Schwartz had a slow start and the injury, but he is on a 54 point pace. Like some of the players listed above, he has absolutely demonstrated that he can be better than that (either by producing at a 60-65 point pace or being much better defensively while being a 55 point player).

Maroon is playing horrific compared to his last 2 seasons. I realize that some of that is the McDavid effect, but he also had 13 points in 17 games for the Devils by riding shotgun to a good line and damn good player. He was given that opportunity here and failed miserably. We can debate whether or not he should have been given that chance. However, whether you agreed with it or not, he had demonstrated for 2 years that he could be an adequate low-cost compliment that can bury 15 goals worth of garbage. That wasn't a hope and a prayer. He did it for 2 years and then fell miles short of being able to do it here despite having an incredibly long leash.

That's a huge chunk of our top 9 that is either greatly underperforming realistic expectations based on past play or are doing about what we thought they could/would do. That's why so many people say that we have good players who are better individually than the record.

Quick Edit: I'm not suggesting that changes don't need to be made. I'm not suggesting that we should spend assets to try to salvage this season and I'm not suggesting that a coaching change should be expected to fix everything. There are lots of problems with this team and I think a few roster moves are needed to fix things. Chemistry, buy in, style, system, locker room, work ethic,etc. However you want to define it, there is something wrong with this group well beyond the talent level. My point is simply that there is a ton of talent on this team and that the expectations weren't just based on blind optimism or overestimating the talent on the roster.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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My last post became a novel, so I'm making a separate post to discuss how I'd be handling this team/roster for the rest of this season.

As I touched on above, I firmly believe that the collection of assets we have on the roster is more talented than the record shows. I'm open to shopping core guys, but none of Petro/Parayko/Tarasenko/Schenn/Schwartz should be moved unless you are getting great value for them. None of them should be hastily moved to shake up the locker room or fix chemistry issues. If you have determined that one of those guys is a cancer and can't be here in October of 2019, fine. But you don't make it public and you sure as hell don't just take whatever deal you can get now. Spend the next 7 months "listening to offers on everyone" so the league doesn't think you're hell bent on moving one specific guy and then pull the trigger on a deal that gets you fair value. Any of those guys should return a hell of a package if shopped properly.

I don't think Petro and Tarasenko are just done being top end guys in the NHL. Tarasenko might never win a scoring title, hit 40 goals, make the HOF, or any other of the elite-level aspirations this fanbase has had for him. But he is absolutely not a sub-25 goal and sub-55 point guy for the rest of his career. Petro has 600 games of experience as a top 20 D man in the NHL and 24 games this year where he played well outside that threshold. I have a very, very hard time believing that he is anything less than a top-30 NHL D man for the near future. If you have decided that one of these 2 has to go, it is inexcusable to sell them for a discount.

Personally, I don't move any of the 5 guys listed above unless the package blows me away. If there are truly the leadership concerns as rumored, have whoever is hired as the new coach remove all letters and pick his own leadership group. That's a way to restructure the leadership group in a way that isn't completely embarrassing for the players who currently have letters and could salvage something long term with those guys.

Thomas and Kyrou are still untouchable for me and most of our prospects are nearly untouchable. The goal for the rest of the year should be identifying guys who are long term solutions and stocking the cupboard with young assets.

To sum it up, this has been a frustrating year and I expect it to continue being frustrating. However, that shouldn't force a sell-low trade. Matt Duchene comes to mind. Sakic let a bad situation fester for a long time in order to get the package he wanted. He faced tons of criticism and ridicule for not taking a couple deals based on a consensus that he "had" to move Duchene quickly to address locker room concerns. And then his patience was rewarded with a great return. This season is almost certainly lost. The focus should be on righting the ship for the start of camp in 2019 and rushing to move a good asset at the expense of a good return is foolish. If we are moving Tarasenko or Petro, then we shouldn't accept anything less than the type of package Duchene returned. We aren't going to get an unprotected 1st rounder. But a 1st, a highly-touted NHL-ready prospect in a position of need and a collection of mid-low value picks/prospects needs to be the baseline that we're working with when we talk about trading those two (or a swap of high end players, but those trades almost never happen any more).

I fully expect a few trades before the deadline, but we might be waiting longer than we'd like in order to get good value.
 
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Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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The longer this goes on, the more I start to question the bolded. They weren't a playoff team last year. They aren't a playoff team this year. What are we basing the notion on, that these are good players? (I realize its a generalization about individuals.) But my point is that maybe the talent level on this team has been overestimated.

Past performance is something that can't just be ignored.

Every single one of our D men is having their worst season in years defensively. I think some of it is a decrease in defensive play from the forwards, but our entire back end is not playing as well as they have before. The scheme might be causing it, but their actual play has also been objectively worse than they have actually played in the past.

Petro is on pace for 34 points, which would be the lowest total of his career in a season where he played 50+ games. His current lowest is 37 points and that was in 73 games (41.5 point pace). Every other year has seen him at a 45 point pace or better.

Parayko is on pace for 26 points, which is noticeably lower than the 35 points he has consistently achieved in his 3 year NHL career.

Bozak is on pace for 34 points, which is woefully behind the 43-55 point pace he has achieved in each of the last 7 seasons.

Tarasenko is on pace for 53 points and 24 goals. Those would each be dramatically lower than anything he is done in the last 4 years.

Those are 4 guys who are essentially having career-worst seasons at the moment. 3 of them are unquestionably in the 'core' and among the the most 8 important players on the roster. There is tangible evidence that Petro, Parayko and Tarasenko are better players than they have been this season. It wasn't blind optimism that led us to think they were good players. They have each demonstrated over several seasons that they are very good players who are better than their current play and that is something that people around the league would agree on. It is an insanely uphill argument to say that Petro, Parayko, and Tarasenko weren't actually that good in the past and were simply overestimated.

Schenn is playing right about at his career average this season after a career-year last season. It could be that last year was the outlier and this is who Schenn really is. But again, thinking he is better than his current level of play was not simply blind optimism and overestimation based on nothing. He was a 70 point player in the NHL last year. He demonstrated that he is absolutely good enough to be a 2C for a good NHL team (his expected role this year).

Perron is playing at a 49 point pace, which is right where people expected him to be. He is playing like a good player. Not an elite player, but 49 points out of your 3rd or 4th best winger is generally acceptable for a playoff team.

Schwartz had a slow start and the injury, but he is on a 54 point pace. Like some of the players listed above, he has absolutely demonstrated that he can be better than that (either by producing at a 60-65 point pace or being much better defensively while being a 55 point player).

Maroon is playing horrific compared to his last 2 seasons. I realize that some of that is the McDavid effect, but he also had 13 points in 17 games for the Devils by riding shotgun to a good line and damn good player. He was given that opportunity here and failed miserably. We can debate whether or not he should have been given that chance. However, whether you agreed with it or not, he had demonstrated for 2 years that he could be an adequate low-cost compliment that can bury 15 goals worth of garbage. That wasn't a hope and a prayer. He did it for 2 years and then fell miles short of being able to do it here despite having an incredibly long leash.

That's a huge chunk of our top 9 that is either greatly under performing realistic expectations based on past play or are doing about what we thought they could/would do. That's why so many people say that we have good players who are better individually than the record.

Quick Edit: I'm not suggesting that changes don't need to be made. I'm not suggesting that we should spend assets to try to salvage this season and I'm not suggesting that a coaching change should be expected to fix everything. There are lots of problems with this team and I think a few roster moves are needed to fix things. Chemistry, buy in, style, system, locker room, work ethic,etc. However you want to define it, there is something wrong with this group well beyond the talent level. My point is simply that there is a ton of talent on this team and that the expectations weren't just based on blind optimism or overestimating the talent on the roster.

Yea, Brian, as per usual, nailed it. Past performance indicates that we have talented players capable at playing better than they are now. So either we have had multiple players regress terribly, or there is something wrong with the cohesion of the group that is causing players to under-perform. Its possible that age, injuries, etc have caught up to some of our players in a permanent way, but we are talking multiple players clearly playing well below what they are capable. That is horrendous luck to have that many mid-to-late 20-somethings fall off the map so quickly.

Sometimes the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts, and sometimes the whole is less than the sum. It makes sense that this team is a case of the latter. Whether it be coaching, chemistry, injuries, or off-ice issues, the individual parts are not operating near the extent they would in an ideal environment. Some might never be able to get there again, but playing the percentages, many would start playing back to their normal level once these other issues are fixed.

If we trade for another player, say Werenski, he would probably be effected by the same things. So when our coaching and scheme eventually cause him to suck as well, do we just say he was over-rated too and trade him off for yet another player doomed to fail. First find the issues and that will help identify which players have regressed and which ones are just struggling due to those other factors.
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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Yea, Brian, as per usual, nailed it. Past performance indicates that we have talented players capable at playing better than they are now. So either we have had multiple players regress terribly, or there is something wrong with the cohesion of the group that is causing players to under-perform. Its possible that age, injuries, etc have caught up to some of our players in a permanent way, but we are talking multiple players clearly playing well below what they are capable. That is horrendous luck to have that many mid-to-late 20-somethings fall off the map so quickly.

Sometimes the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts, and sometimes the whole is less than the sum. It makes sense that this team is a case of the latter. Whether it be coaching, chemistry, injuries, or off-ice issues, the individual parts are not operating near the extent they would in an ideal environment. Some might never be able to get there again, but playing the percentages, many would start playing back to their normal level once these other issues are fixed.

If we trade for another player, say Werenski, he would probably be effected by the same things. So when our coaching and scheme eventually cause him to suck as well, do we just say he was over-rated too and trade him off for yet another player doomed to fail. First find the issues and that will help identify which players have regressed and which ones are just struggling due to those other factors.
I stand by my statement. I don't mean to overgeneralize. But my point is that I think we may have collectively over-rated the talent on this roster. Players DO regress. Maybe the anomaly was the prior performance for some guys.

In more specific terms, I think we've over-estimated the talent in the D corps. It looks pretty ordinary or below average right now.

None of this is to say we don't need a new coach. But its to say that maybe ANY coach is going to have more limitations to work with than we want to believe.
 

Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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Central Florida
I stand by my statement. I don't mean to overgeneralize. But my point is that I think we may have collectively over-rated the talent on this roster. Players DO regress. Maybe the anomaly was the prior performance for some guys.

In more specific terms, I think we've over-estimated the talent in the D corps. It looks pretty ordinary or below average right now.

None of this is to say we don't need a new coach. But its to say that maybe ANY coach is going to have more limitations to work with than we want to believe.

I think entering this season there was some definite over-valuing. Dunn got over-valued as we expected him to grow, as opposed to the very common sophomore slump. Our young players all had insanely high expectations. Parayko is always a bit over-rated. But I don't think over-valuing of players can be the complete answer as to why we are as bad as we are. Sure, if people thought this was a Stanley Cup front-runner, they over-valued our talent. But that is a long way from being a bottom-5 in the league team. I don't think that there is a credible argument that we have bottom-5 talent.
 

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