The Flyers Should Trade Wayne Simmonds

[Magua]

Are you saying there’s no value to having someone on your team who will physically respond to cheap shots?

I think there's value in physical players, provided they add value elsewhere and are physical on the puck too.

Responding to cheap shots? If a cheap shot happens (and they will regardless; and they have against this team with Simmonds, even with him on the ice), it's already rather late, no? The players who commit those actions with any regularity probably like to fight too, so they're not deterred anyway. I'm not minimizing teammates standing up for one another as a locker room morale booster, but I also think the Flyers have guys who can do that. But that's more for "honor" than any sort of realistic prevention. This isn't the Wild West on Ice anymore. Fighting is down; dirty plays are more strictly enforced.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

It’s a tough situation to truly gauge. Deadline may be the best time to trade him. I would’ve explored every possible option to move him during the draft though. I think that was a missed opportunity

At what point in the standings would you consider keeping Simmonds? At what point does Simmonds contribution to a young playoff bound team exceed his value in a trade? What value would you need to extract from Simmonds to exceed the hit to team moral (to both vets and young guys) if they trade him in a deadline deal?

I think the optimal time to trade Simmonds has passed. I think the team will be good enough that you will either have to keep him or trade a veteran player that has preconceived value and presence in the room right before a playoff run.

I would hope that this is the year where we can stop telling players like Jake, G, Coots etc that we are looking to sell pieces to build for the future. This doesn't mean we are looking to sell the farm to go all in, this is just telling them that we truly expect that we are on the path to a championship level team, that the goal is now to win as much as possible even if that means a sacrifice to maximizing asset value.

This coming from somebody who feels like maximizing asset value whenever possible is the key to winning in any sports league with a soft or hard salary cap.

It is important to remember that these players are humans, there is value to creating a winning atmosphere. There are times to maximize asset value and there are times to show commitment to winning, commitment to the group you have assembled. I think the Flyers are in the later vs the former right now and I hope the ride Simmonds for everything he is worth this year, winning a playoff round or two, gain experience, and then let him walk.

 

[Striiker]

Just look at Gudas.

Did someone stop him from laying huge hits by going after him and scaring him away? Nope.

He only changed because the league showed him what would happen if he didn’t and he didn’t want to be sitting next the press box for weeks. That’s the deterrent, not threats of retaliation from opponents.

 

[Tripod]

Just look at Gudas.

Did someone stop him from laying huge hits by going after him and scaring him away? Nope.

He only changed because the league showed him what would happen if he didn’t and he didn’t want to be sitting next the press box for weeks. That’s the deterrent, not threats of retaliation from opponents.

It's just dumb to say Simmonds is a deterrent. Wilson still smashed Schenn. Komorov still smashed Ghost. Subban still elbowed Giroux. Etc...

Certainly if having Simmonds is SUPPOSED to be a deterrent, then he/it has failed miserably.

 

[deadhead]

I would hope that this is the year where we can stop telling players like Jake, G, Coots etc that we are looking to sell pieces to build for the future. This doesn't mean we are looking to sell the farm to go all in, this is just telling them that we truly expect that we are on the path to a championship level team, that the goal is now to win as much as possible even if that means a sacrifice to maximizing asset value.

I think the Phillies are a good example, Klentak spent on four free agents, but 2-3 year contracts, and made some TDL trades, but only with prospects he was probably going to have to expose in the Rule 5 draft or on waivers this fall.

That's the balance I expect from Hextall, no more accumulating assets for the future, but trading only "surplus", or in the case of Simmonds, not trading an asset that can help you win now.

 

[lancer247]

Who would be the realistic prospects/players from other teams you would trade Simmmonds for?

I always look at WPG or any Western conference team, ideally.

B. Lemueix and 1st (likely very late 1st rd)?

 

[tymed]

Intimidation and deterrence are common psychological factors in sports. It's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

 

[hatcher]

It's just dumb to say Simmonds is a deterrent. Wilson still smashed Schenn. Komorov still smashed Ghost. Subban still elbowed Giroux. Etc...

Certainly if having Simmonds is SUPPOSED to be a deterrent, then he/it has failed miserably.

No one went after then though. Look at other games when a star gets hit the is shit going on all the rest of the night.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No one argued that having certain physically intimidating players stop *all* cheap shots. That's a ridiculous straw man response. I hate when people take a nuanced opinion and exaggerate it to an extreme in an effort to shoot it down.

I think everyone agrees cheap shots are going to happen no matter what. There are a lot of underhanded a-holes in the league. My (and some others') opinion, though, is that having a guy like Simmonds on your team can at least make some opponents think twice before they do something dirty, because they know they'll have to put up with Simmonds if they do. I think there's some value in making players think twice and know there will be repercussions, and that it probably does *reduce* (not eliminate) the number of cheap shots throughout the season. And, yes, I think it's a morale booster on your team knowing you have a guy who will defend you (which also lets you feel more confident in playing physically yourself).

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Intimidation and deterrence are common psychological factors in sports. It's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

So do you think Simmonds did a good job providing those two things in light of how our players were treated last year?

 

[deadhead]

Yes, imagine a Flyers team sans Simmonds, a softer team becomes even softer, without the speed that allows TB to get away with it during the regular season (not so much during the playoffs).

It's about balance, you need size, speed, toughness and skill, if you have them all in the same package, you have Gordie Howe.
In the real world, you have different players with different combinations of attributes, and you want lines and defensive pairs that balance these attributes on the ice.

And it's not just cheap shots, put a small line out there and big lines will physically manhandle them, put a slow group out there and fast lines will skate past them, and so on.

The rule changes have shifted the relative balance of attributes, but they haven't eliminated hitting, forechecking, moving players out of the crease, etc., they've just eliminated more egregious behavior like slashing, boarding, and bear hugs.

 

[tictactoe]

5 years at 6M a year. Get it done.

 

[Magua]

I hate when people take a nuanced opinion and exaggerate it to an extreme in an effort to shoot it down.

Do you think Dale Weise’s Corsi acted as a deterrent?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Do you think Dale Weise’s Corsi acted as a deterrent?

I never exaggerated Weise’s Corsi. I cited it for what it was.

 

[Larry44]

I never exaggerated Weise’s Corsi. I cited it for what it was.

Weise's corset is more relevant than his Corsi.

 

[Tripod]

No one argued that having certain physically intimidating players stop *all* cheap shots. That's a ridiculous straw man response. I hate when people take a nuanced opinion and exaggerate it to an extreme in an effort to shoot it down.

I think everyone agrees cheap shots are going to happen no matter what. There are a lot of underhanded a-holes in the league. My (and some others') opinion, though, is that having a guy like Simmonds on your team can at least make some opponents think twice before they do something dirty, because they know they'll have to put up with Simmonds if they do. I think there's some value in making players think twice and know there will be repercussions, and that it probably does *reduce* (not eliminate) the number of cheap shots throughout the season. And, yes, I think it's a morale booster on your team knowing you have a guy who will defend you (which also lets you feel more confident in playing physically yourself).

You really think when someone is going in for a hit, they think...."hmmm, they have Simmonds. Maybe I should let up a bit."

Removing Simmonds makes US less physical...for sure. But in no way does it make another team more physical against us because Simmonds is gone.

And I have said many a time, I WANT a few physical guys because it's something we lack. But to re-sign Simmonds because of that would be a dumb move.

 

[deadhead]

Resign? No. But until some of the bigger prospects arrive, I'd hate to lose Simmonds from what is a soft team right now.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Weise's corset is more relevant than his Corsi.

I think it’s relevant to point out that Weise’s CF% was 53.44 & 6th on the Flyers in 16/17, & that Weal & Read were first & second, just like I think it’s relevant to point out that 6 of the top 8 teams in CF% this season *missed* the playoffs.

Gee, maybe some of these fancy stats aren’t so God-like?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You really think when someone is going in for a hit, they think...."hmmm, they have Simmonds. Maybe I should let up a bit."

Removing Simmonds makes US less physical...for sure. But in no way does it make another team more physical against us because Simmonds is gone.

And I have said many a time, I WANT a few physical guys because it's something we lack. But to re-sign Simmonds because of that would be a dumb move.

I think having Simmonds on the team makes opponents at least think twice before doing something dirty, because they know he’s going to respond in some manner. Doesn’t mean they still won’t do it, but I’d bet there would be more cheap shots if Simmonds were gone.

You really think in pregame meetings teams don’t address things like “the Flyers don’t have anyone who will respond, so run them with impunity”? I guarantee you teams stress physicality when they think they can intimidate an opponent with no repercussions.

 

[Tripod]

I think having Simmonds on the team makes opponents at least think twice before doing something dirty, because they know he’s going to respond in some manner. Doesn’t mean they still won’t do it, but I’d bet there would be more cheap shots if Simmonds were gone.

You really think in pregame meetings teams don’t address things like “the Flyers don’t have anyone who will respond, so run them with impunity”? I guarantee you teams stress physicality when they think they can intimidate an opponent with no repercussions.

I disagree.

We have HAD Simmonds for years. Do you think teams are saying "DON'T run anyone because Simmonds will come get you"? No, they don't.

No team is changing their playing style because of Simmonds. Now an individual person may or may not try to start shit after the whistle in a scrum if Simmonds is there or not. But again, we have had him for years, and had many cheap shots against us.

We had Gudas who is a retaliatory too. Hasn't stopped anything.

We had Rinaldo who was a walking psychopath and could fight. Nope, no difference.

 

[deadhead]

Rinaldo doesn't count because he was a psychopath, he'd attack you for no reason, so you might as well get a cheap shot in.

I don't think it's simple as "Simmonds intimidates people," rather, with Simmonds, Gudas and bigger forwards like Patrick, Couts and JVR, and bigger defensemen like Hagg, Myers and eventually Morin, you're not going to game plan to run those "smurfs" off the ice. The fighting aspect is a minor edge, the willingness to hit (and be hit) is more important (don't start what you can't finish).

The Flyers were one of the smallest teams in the NHL last year, and at best, average speed wise - a bad combination.

Getting both bigger and faster has been a Hextall priority the last few drafts.

 

[BernieParent]

Simmonds' physical play will probably not make much difference during the regular season, but the playoffs tend to get chippy and I'd like to have someone who can participate in the extracurriculars and not otherwise look like a buffoon on skates.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Looking forward to healthy Simmonds. Love the Wayne Train. So happy he wasn't traded

 

[RANKKA]

Looking forward to healthy Simmonds. Love the Wayne Train. So happy he wasn't traded

there is still time

 

[Freddy The Fog]

I think the Phillies are a good example, Klentak spent on four free agents, but 2-3 year contracts, and made some TDL trades, but only with prospects he was probably going to have to expose in the Rule 5 draft or on waivers this fall.

That's the balance I expect from Hextall, no more accumulating assets for the future, but trading only "surplus", or in the case of Simmonds, not trading an asset that can help you win now.

You will always need to be accumulating assets for the future....or you turn into Chicago /LA. Always