The Flyers Should Trade Wayne Simmonds

[LegionOfDoom91]

Fighting is pretty much dead.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I’ve said this before, but if you think the team’s goal is to be in a position to add a player at the deadline for a playoff run, then it’s nonsensical to trade Simmonds.

He’s your de facto deadline addition, & about as good of one as you’re going to get.

Plus, you get him for the entire season, which has the value of probably leading to a better playoff seed.

They don’t need to panic about “losing him for nothing,” because he has value to them playing the entire season & playoffs; they’d have to give up value to replace him if their goal is to win a playoff round; they got JVR for nothing, so that evens it out; and if he walks after the season it opens up space to replace him with a UFA.

 

[FLYguy3911]

You're not wrong about those facts. But what exactly are you suggesting though, that Wayne isn't a feared scrapper now or that he doesn't effectively serve as a deterrent for other NHL regulars looking to get under our player's skin? I doubt that's what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure.

1. I think his impact as a fighter is overstated, especially in today's environment. Yeah it was great in 2011 when he got here, but the game has changed so much. He didn't/couldn't fight last year and it had little to no impact on the team. The kids run the league now. It's a different culture.

2. Fighting is pretty non-existent and the league keeps implementing rules to effectively take it out of the sport. The only guys that regularly scrap anymore are, to use Mike Rupp's word, irrelevant.

Here were your fight leaders in the league last year:

Haley
McLeod
Wilson
Thorburn
Hamonic
Oleksiak
Watson
Andreoff
Borowiecki
Hathaway

Only guy worth a damn is Wilson and that's being a little generous.

 

[tymed]

Fighting is pretty much dead.

Fighting is dying, however it's not yet dead... You can still come up with plenty of examples of players trying to spark their bench with a round.

My defense of hanging onto Simmonds in part for his fists isn't at all to do with staged fighting or sparking the bench though, it's strictly about being a deterrent in defense of our young and skilled players. The less he actually has to drop the gloves for it, the better of course. But to say this role and motive don't exist anymore is simply incorrect. Teams need guys that are at least willing to engage physically like this, and we have no one else at the moment after the departure of Schenn and Manning.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

You can pretty much count on your hands that amount of skilled & willing fighters left in the league at this point. Nobody could give two f***s about the majority of those guys either as they’re having pretty much no impact on the game. Let them run around & be morons with their 5-6 minutes of ice time (you already won before the game starts that they iced a guy that they can’t trust to play over 10 minutes). If they do anything egregious they’re going to get penalized & possibly thrown out of the game.

 

[Rebels57]

The effect of fighting is something I feel like fans can't quantify so I usually don't offer on my opinion on it's effectiveness.

 

[Delete99991]

His skating is a concern for me. He's an awkward skater that gets by on athleticism, but as he racks up the miles and the injuries that will diminish. He looked slow and clumsy last year.

 

[tymed]

I'm certainly not advocating to have fighters on the team, especially ones that can't do much else. I'm not even saying whether or not winning or losing a fight has any kind of impact, in my opinion it does.

My main concern here is the safety of our younger and smaller players, or any of our players in general. I guess it's an opinion, but I think that Wayne's presence alone prevents higher frequencies of occurrences where the opposition is willing to take an extra run or cheap shot at our skill guys. It makes complete sense to try to get into the heads and under the skin of your opponent so you're always going to have that in the game. We all watch a ton of hockey and we all see the incredible amount of BS that goes unseen and undisciplined. I just think it's important that potential aggressors in the opposition fear more than the refs when deciding to take those extra jabs or extra steps into our players. It's important at least to smaller or more passive players as well to know that the opposition is deterred from taking runs at them, that they've got muscle to back them up.

Staged fighting and things like "momentum fights" might be dead or almost dead, but the game is still dirty as hell and there are a heck of a lot of players willing to risk taking a penalty to take the opposition scorers of their games. Intimidation and deterrence are a huge part of the mental aspect of being on the ice.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Simmonds fighting ability is a nice touch, but what I like more about him is that he’s a pain to play against & stands up for his teammates. I’m sure they feel better having him on the team, & I’m sure other teams would much prefer playing the Flyers without him.

There may not be much fighting in the league, but there sure are a lot of cheap shots. Simmonds at least helps keep opponents a little bit honest in that they know they’ll have to deal with him if they do something. You can’t have a team full of choir boys. There are some nasty players in the league, regardless of fighting.

 

[deadhead]

In two years, the Flyers may have Myers, Morin, Ratcliffe, Allison, and Gudas as an actual threat.

Just having big guys is enough to intimidate most cheap shot artists, because even without fighting, they'll eventually find themselves in a corner or a pile in front of the net with someone 20 lbs heavier. And like football scrums, elbows and other parts of the anatomy become weaponized.

 

[deadhead]

If they can replace him at EV+PP seamlessly... which they should be able to... then he should be traded.

Patrick showed last year he could do as good a job 5v4 as Simmonds, over a decent sample.
Simmonds at 5v5 the last couple of years has produced less than Weal, and identically to Laughton. And he is just "meh" defensively at 5v5.

PP isn't an issue with Couts, Patrick and JVR available, but why would anyone trade us a solid 3RW for Simmonds?
Now maybe Tampa Bay might want to change their chemistry a bit for the playoffs, but that's the only circumstance where I could see us getting back a RW that could replace Simmonds.
Most teams are trying to fill a hole with a veteran, not simply swap a young player for a veteran.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

In two years, the Flyers may have Myers, Morin, Ratcliffe, Allison, and Gudas as an actual threat.

Just having big guys is enough to intimidate most cheap shot artists, because even without fighting, they'll eventually find themselves in a corner or a pile in front of the net with someone 20 lbs heavier. And like football scrums, elbows and other parts of the anatomy become weaponized.

I’m not sure Myers or Ratcliffe will serve as much of a cheap shot deterrent. I disagree that size in and of itself is a significant deterrent. I don’t think people thought twice because Therien & Grossmann were on the ice.

Morin, yes. Allison sure won’t hurt & will at least try a defense & run guys himself even if not much of a deterrent.

 

[Striiker]

You don’t need a “cheap shot detterent” because no such thing actually exists.

Can someone tell me a time period when there were no cheap shots and no injuries? Because there used be a ton of “enforcers” in the league and I remember quite a few cheap shots being taken despite their patrolling.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You don’t need a “cheap shot detterent” because no such thing actually exists.

Can someone tell me a time period when there were no cheap shots and no injuries? Because there used be a ton of “enforcers” in the league and I remember quite a few cheap shots being taken despite their patrolling.

Sure they still happen. It’s a matter of degree. I’ll acknowledge I have no way of quantifying a difference — but neither do you. So it’s conjecture on both our parts, even if you adamantly state “there’s no such thing.” I’m basing my conjecture on the fact that if a little dweeb by himself dares flick something at me, I’m going to kill him. But if he’s got Hatcher standing next to him, I’ll probably give a lot of lip but think twice about starting a physical altercation. If you don’t believe that exists in human psychology, that’s your prerogative.

 

[Striiker]

Sure they still happen. It’s a matter of degree. I’ll acknowledge I have no way of quantifying a difference — but neither do you. So it’s conjecture on both our parts, even if you adamantly state “there’s no such thing.” I’m basing my conjecture on the fact that if a little dweeb by himself dares flick something at me, I’m going to kill him. But if he’s got Hatcher standing next to him, I’ll probably give a lot of lip but think twice about starting a physical altercation. If you don’t believe that exists in human psychology, that’s your prerogative.

Completely different concept in the NHL.

It’s not like hiring a bodyguard to stick by your side all day. They actually have to be able to play the sport, otherwise you don’t need to lay a big/dirty hit to gain an advantage. Just expose the trash goon by skating circles around him.

Or you could just wait until they’re off the ice and hit someone who doesn’t play on his line. If he comes after you later, great, take your PP as the refs stop him and you’ve won twice.

The intangible advantages don’t outweigh the tangible disadvantages.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Completely different concept in the NHL.

It’s not like hiring a bodyguard to stick by your side all day. They actually have to be able to play the sport, otherwise you don’t need to lay a big/dirty hit to gain an advantage. Just expose the trash goon by skating circles around him.

Or you could just wait until they’re off the ice and hit someone who doesn’t play on his line. If he comes after you later, great, take your PP as the refs stop him and you’ve won twice.

The intangible advantages don’t outweigh the tangible disadvantages.

You’re misrepresenting my argument as advocating for bodyguard-only players. What you originally responded to was my claim that I think Simmonds helps deter some cheap shots — you said there’s no such thing as deterring cheap shots. I disagree, but neither of us can statistically prove it. I can only cite my own beliefs in human psychology. I never in this thread advocated for a guy who can’t play but only serves as a policeman. I said one of the things I liked about Simmonds—who can undeniably play—is he stands up for teammates & helps deter some cheap shots.

 

[Striiker]

You’re misrepresenting my argument as advocating for bodyguard-only players. What you originally responded to was my claim that I think Simmonds helps deter some cheap shots — you said there’s no such thing as deterring cheap shots. I disagree, but neither of us can statistically prove it. I can only cite my own beliefs in human psychology. I never in this thread advocated for a guy who can’t play but only serves as a policeman. I said one of the things I liked about Simmonds—who can undeniably play—is he stands up for teammates & helps deter some cheap shots.

Nope.

I just saw multiple people mention a type of deterrent role and then I made a general post about the topic. That’s why I didn’t quote anyone.

 

[Magua]

God only knows what Komarov would’ve done to Ghost this past season if Simmonds wasn’t on the ice.

 

[Striiker]

That weak little bitch Sanheim is lucky we had heavyweight champion Manning to scare everyone away, otherwise he’d literally be dead.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Nope.

I just saw multiple people mention a type of deterrent role and then I made a general post about the topic. That’s why I didn’t quote anyone.

You quoted my post.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

God only knows what Komarov would’ve done to Ghost this past season if Simmonds wasn’t on the ice.

Are you saying there’s no value to having someone on your team who will physically respond to cheap shots?

 

[Striiker]

You quoted my post.

In my 2nd post...

You said “what you originally responded to” and my original post didn’t quote anyone.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/148776811/


The post I quoted didn’t even mention Simmonds.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

In my 2nd post...

You said “what you originally responded to” and my original post didn’t quote anyone.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/148776811/


The post I quoted didn’t even mention Simmonds.

Ok. Then replace my statement that you responded to “my claim that I think Simmonds helps deter some cheap shots” to “any claim anyone could help deter some cheap shots.”

 

[Striiker]

Ok. Then replace my statement that you responded to “my claim that I think Simmonds helps deter some cheap shots” to “any claim anyone could help deter some cheap shots.”

Like you said, neither of us have proof, so in the absense of proof we’ll just assume that this magical force doesn’t exist.

I’ll believe in it as soon as I’m given a reason to. Until then, nah.

 

[Flyrs21]

The Flyers really do need more fighters, I mean in the 70s, 80, 90s there were never any cheapshots because guys were afraid of all the fighters sitting on the bench.

Some of you guys are funny.