The Fix: Referees, Penalties, and Bias

[Le Grec]

My 2 cents...

1- We don't dive. The only one who kinda dives is Barzal, and he doesn't do it as often as he should. Sad to say but we have a roster full of payers with integrity and it's costing them.

2- We have 1 star. Stars get the calls, that's the reality of every sport.

3- We don't go to the high scoring areas. Some are saying it's the style we play, but the reality is we never challenge the opposition in the offensive zone. It's usually shots from the perimeter or the point. The defense rarely has trouble covering us.

4- We are the Islanders. If you honestly believe the NHL officiating isn't biased occasionally, well you're f***ing nuts. These are guys who thrive on controlling the game.
Depending on certain circumstances, they can play favorites. And I know Snow is perceived as a monster by some here, but he wasn't wrong when he said they shit on us. It's been this way for a long time, get used to it...

 

[Phil120362]

Because refs are human beings with human biases and preferences and dislikes for certain players and egos. Do you think that the Detroit Red Wings or the Ottawa Senators or the LA Kings are really pushing the play with their all out dynamic offensive styles? Why do they have so many more PPs than us? Let me ask you a question too, so you answer that one. To make a comparison in another sport, It is the same thing with the Saints in the NFL, whose overall officiating is probably 2x as bad as the NHL and that is REALLY saying something. They are one of the best teams in the league for the last three years with a dynamic offense every season, how do they keep getting shafted time after time game after game? Because the officials have a bias, it annoys them that the Saints and their fans keep pointing out how horrible the officiating is against them. The problem is these sports leagues do nothing about it. There is no repercussions for pro sports refs. They dont have to answer questions, they dont have to meet the media. They just move on to the next game. We live in a world right now where in my two favorite sports, football and hockey, old men in zebra outfits are flat out determining results of huge games that these teams play all season for and fans pay good money to see. And it is really affecting my love for sports. And I cannot imagine there are not a ton of others out there who feel the same way.

Saints=Bounty,and not the fixer picker upper...lols

 

[Tres Peleches]

The referees can both have a difficult job and be bad at said job

not mutually exclusive

Honestly I expect variability in calls from game to game and from referee team to referee team. That is understandable and acceptable because different games call for different styles, and each referee has a different style.

For example, a heated game against the Rangers should be called more strictly than a random Wednesday night game against a western conference team because the former is much more likely to get out of hand

What is not acceptable, however, is wild variability within games. If you’re not going to call blatant trips, don’t call a meh trip 2 minutes later. Don’t change the way you call a game because a team is down or up (Isles-Penguins “roughing” at the end of the game).

Their job isn’t to manage and groom the outcome of a game, it’s to make sure that the players are following the rule book while competing. I feel as though somewhere along the way that got lost in the shuffle for the referees

Finally, if you’re going to let your own personal bias get in the way of doing your job properly, you should not be allowed to do that job. Part of being an adult is working with people you disagree with. Get over the fact that someone complains when you let them get mugged and slashed and beaten and be an adult, call a clean game, and do it properly.

 

[SI]

My 2 cents...

1- We don't dive. The only one who kinda dives is Barzal, and he doesn't do it as often as he should. Sad to say but we have a roster full of payers with integrity and it's costing them.

2- We have 1 star. Stars get the calls, that's the reality of every sport.

3- We don't go to the high scoring areas. Some are saying it's the style we play, but the reality is we never challenge the opposition in the offensive zone. It's usually shots from the perimeter or the point. The defense rarely has trouble covering us.

4- We are the Islanders. If you honestly believe the NHL officiating isn't biased occasionally, well you're ****ing nuts. These are guys who thrive on controlling the game.
Depending on certain circumstances, they can play favorites. And I know Snow is perceived as a monster by some here, but he wasn't wrong when he said they **** on us. It's been this way for a long time, get used to it...

this is not at all accurate -

quite the opposite - getting more high quality chances, but the offensive system is conservative - winning puck battles, F3 remains high as to limit odd men rushes, and D pinch very conservatively, whenever they are sure they are covered.

The Trotz Philosophy: Shot Quality Over Shot Quantity

 

[SI]

However people want to spin it the team over the course of 43 games are last in the league in PPO -

117 vs. 95 that is 22 more PPO going the other way and only 13 PPO in the last 9 games. 28 games out of 43 the opponent has had more chances

the team is a hard hitting team, but probably one of the cleanest hitting teams in the league- the data supports a bias

 

[Doshell Propivo]

My 2 cents...



4- We are the Islanders. If you honestly believe the NHL officiating isn't biased occasionally, well you're ****ing nuts. These are guys who thrive on controlling the game.
Depending on certain circumstances, they can play favorites. And I know Snow is perceived as a monster by some here, but he wasn't wrong when he said they **** on us. It's been this way for a long time, get used to it...

We've been in the top 10 in terms of power play opportunities numerous times during some of our most abysmal seasons. Conversely, Montreal, Toronto, Boston and the Rangers have consistently been in the bottom 5 in recent years.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

However people want to spin it the team over the course of 43 games are last in the league in PPO -

117 vs. 95 that is 22 more PPO going the other way and only 13 PPO in the last 9 games.

I think everyone understands that. No one is trying to spin that.

The 117 times short handed is also the lowest in the league. If there's an anti-Islander bias, wouldn't there be more calls made against them? NYI are -22 on the PPO and TSH ratio. Dallas is -23, San Jose -21, Vegas -20, Ducks -19... Do the refs hate those teams as well?

 

[Bones45]

The only thing which is concrete is that every teams fans think the officials are out to get them AND that they are all wrong.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

The only thing which is concrete is that every teams fans think the officials are out to get them AND that they are all wrong.

Yep.

There is one other thing that's concrete though. Josh Bailey is a second liner.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Because refs are human beings with human biases and preferences and dislikes for certain players and egos.

What you're describing here is individual bias and yes, that exists. In what form and to what degree is hard to tell. But, psychological data going back decades acknowledges that there's individual bias. This affects everybody.

The Isles have different ref crews all the time. If there was one ref that doesn't call any penalties in Isles games, and you can pin that to an individual ref (or 2 or 3) and map a history of games that ref was in and note the anomalies in the penalty calls, then we'd be working with something.

But, you're not describing that at all. You're describing systemic bias. Systemic bias is very rare as it requires a conspiratorial framework among many individuals in which to exist. This is incredibly difficult to do.

I remember reading that the Isles dump the puck in more than any team in the league. They rarely score off the rush. They also play a highly regimented defensive system which doesn't allow many rush attempts going the other way. I wonder if there's a way to see how many penalties happen on the rush? My guess is that it's very high because that's where the most desperate plays happen.

 

[beach]

What you're describing here is individual bias and yes, that exists. In what form and to what degree is hard to tell. But, psychological data going back decades acknowledges that there's individual bias. This affects everybody.

The Isles have different ref crews all the time. If there was one ref that doesn't call any penalties in Isles games, and you can pin that to an individual ref (or 2 or 3) and map a history of games that ref was in and note the anomalies in the penalty calls, then we'd be working with something.

But, you're not describing that at all. You're describing systemic bias. Systemic bias is very rare as it requires a conspiratorial framework among many individuals in which to exist. This is incredibly difficult to do.

I remember reading that the Isles dump the puck in more than any team in the league. They rarely score off the rush. They also play a highly regimented defensive system which doesn't allow many rush attempts going the other way. I wonder if there's a way to see how many penalties happen on the rush? My guess is that it's very high because that's where the most desperate plays happen.

This explanation makes sense except, there are blatantly missed calls in virtually every Isles' game. The slash on Barzal and the complete takedown of Ebs are just two from the last game.

 

[Le Grec]

this is not at all accurate -

quite the opposite - getting more high quality chances, but the offensive system is conservative - winning puck battles, F3 remains high as to limit odd men rushes, and D pinch very conservatively, whenever they are sure they are covered.


The Trotz Philosophy: Shot Quality Over Shot Quantity

For the record, I don't care about advanced stats, I'm an eye test guy.

In tonight's game, count how many times a player drives up the middle, I bet the number will be close to zero...

 

[Le Grec]

We've been in the top 10 in terms of power play opportunities numerous times during some of our most abysmal seasons. Conversely, Montreal, Toronto, Boston and the Rangers have consistently been in the bottom 5 in recent years.

That is a very good point, and if I didn't have my kids busting my balls, I would have elaborated.

If you, or anyone else paid attention, I used to post who the refs were going to be, and the Isles record when those refs called their games in the GDT a few years ago.

What I noticed was the Isles do better when the refs involved have a history of calling everything as opposed to refs who let the players play. That plays into one of my original points of the Isles are too nice. When refs put away the whistles, we are f***ed.

Getting back to your point, there are some refs that gave the Isles lots of PP but had a losing record when they were calling their games. There was a game a few years ago where both refs involved gave the Isles a high number of PP over the previous 3 seasons, but the Isles lost everyone of those games. This was against Pitt. The first 19 minutes the Isles dominated, spending about 16 minutes in the O zone. I remember thinking a) I can't believe we haven't scored and b) I can't believe we didn't get 1 PP out of that pressure. With just under a minute to go, Crosby is 1 on 1 with the D man and tries to cut inside and falls, and the ref called a penalty on us. 30 seconds later, it's 1-0 Pitt.
2 minutes into the second, the Pens get another PP and score, 2-0 Pitt. And about 3 minutes later, Pitt scores again. The games was essentially over at that point. But in the remaining 35 minutes or so of playing time, the Isles got 5 PP.
I remember bitching about the refs to a friend of mine (Pitt fan) and his response was how are you complaining, we had a 5-2 PP advantage. But what he didn't understand was Pitt got 2 PP on essentially 2 O zone entries, when the game mattered. The Isles got nothing during that stretch even though they were driving the play the whole time, all the PP's came when it was too late.

You might think I'm talking out of my ass, but that shit happened more often then people would like to admit. So its not all about how many penalties are called, but when. Case in point, the Boston game. Barzal has a chance at a clear break, but no PP when there should have been a call made. But Marchand gets the call when he wasn't really in a threatening position.
When you look at the boxscore you see 2 PP's to 1. Seems close, but it wasn't really...

 

[Islesfan22]

How about holding refs accountable for officiating a terrible game?

 

[Islesfan22]

Can refs be bias of course they can they are human beings. I remember an nba ref who got suspended as he was deliberately giving Tim Duncan technical fouls because he did not like him.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

How about holding refs accountable for officiating a terrible game?

Do you know how refs are reviewed or evaluated?

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

This explanation makes sense except, there are blatantly missed calls in virtually every Isles' game. The slash on Barzal and the complete takedown of Ebs are just two from the last game.

My guess is that there are multiple missed calls every game for every team. Your perception of it is amplified by the fact that that a) you're an Isles fan and b) the Isles get so few calls. So, missed calls become more egregious in your eyes. Also, there's lots of reasons for a missed or non-call, most of which do not include systemic or individual bias towards the team.

One other thing I thought of is that the Isles are involved with many close games. Refs are less likely to make calls in close games for fear of swaying the match. This would aggregate heavily against the Isles, but not so much with other teams.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

My guess is that there are multiple missed calls every game for every team. Your perception of it is amplified by the fact that that a) you're an Isles fan and b) the Isles get so few calls. So, missed calls become more egregious in your eyes. Also, there's lots of reasons for a missed or non-call, most of which do not include systemic or individual bias towards the team.

One other thing I thought of is that the Isles are involved with many close games. Refs are less likely to make calls in close games for fear of swaying the match. This would aggregate heavily against the Isles, but not so much with other teams.

That's a great point. And one that could possibly explain why the Isles get few penalties for AND against.

 

[Tres Peleches]

Do you know how refs are reviewed or evaluated?

Do you?

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

The guy sitting on Eberle reminded me of 1980's hockey. No call on the around the neck throw down, and how long did he prevent Ebs from even standing up?
How about a coaches challenge on that garbage, NHL?

 

[scottywiper]

This explanation makes sense except, there are blatantly missed calls in virtually every Isles' game. The slash on Barzal and the complete takedown of Ebs are just two from the last game.

Barzal getting tackled down rugby style in corner earlier in season... And then copping an embellishment for a stick to the nuts....

 

[scottywiper]

NYISkinny: Eric Hornick's Blog: The Skinny on the Missing PPs
NYISkinny: Eric Hornick's Blog: The Skinny on the Missing PPs

 

[Islesfan22]

Do you know how refs are reviewed or evaluated?

No idea but it seems there is no punishment for badly officiated games. Not sure if your a soccer fan but I have watched English premier league for a long time now. They would review the referee after every game and if the ref had a really bad game he would get demoted to the second division for a few games. I would love to see the nhl do this but I doubt they ever will.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Do you?

No but I’m not making wild assumptions that they’re not. I bet there is a system in place though. Don’t you?

 

[Phil120362]

How about holding refs accountable for officiating a terrible game?

Let's see,hmmmm....Ranger fanboy commish,ex Ranger crony \ coach.....need I say more?