The Fix: Referees, Penalties, and Bias

Satan'sIsland81

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Feb 9, 2007
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Without mentioning names, anybody still questioning the officiating against the Isles, the disparity in calls and the lack of PPs for the Isles should check out the Athletic article today. The team is on pace to shatter the record for fewest PPs ever in the history of the league since they started keeping these stats. To give you the quick number, the Isles are on pace for 180 PPs, only one team in the last 40 years has had under 200 and that was 191. Just put that in perspective.
 
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PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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Without mentioning names, anybody still questioning the officiating against the Isles, the disparity in calls and the lack of PPs for the Isles should check out the Athletic article today. The team is on pace to shatter the record for fewest PPs ever in the history of the league since they started keeping these stats. To give you the quick number, the Isles are on pace for 180 PPs, only one team in the last 40 years has had under 200 and that was 191. Just put that in perspective.

Does it dive into differential though? I'm genuinely curious.
 

crasherino

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May 9, 2013
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Without mentioning names, anybody still questioning the officiating against the Isles, the disparity in calls and the lack of PPs for the Isles should check out the Athletic article today. The team is on pace to shatter the record for fewest PPs ever in the history of the league since they started keeping these stats. To give you the quick number, the Isles are on pace for 180 PPs, only one team in the last 40 years has had under 200 and that was 191. Just put that in perspective.
Its become more than just an anomaly and I'm not sure how to reconcile it. Still, I think Barzal needs to shut his mouth. It seems like Trotz has impressed on him the need to not chirp at the Refs as that will only backfire. But I'm not sure why he needs to be the spokesman for the team in this article. Not saying he's wrong or saying he's out of line with anything that he said there but he just shouldn't be the guy being quoted here. He is starting to get the reputation of being a big/loud mouth and that's not the way to get calls. With a team laden with respected veterans, it would come off a lot better if Lee, Eberle, Bailey, Nelson, Clutter, Martin, etc. would be the guys to address it to the public. This won't endear him to the refs, who I'm sure know full well what's printed.
 
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Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
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Without mentioning names, anybody still questioning the officiating against the Isles, the disparity in calls and the lack of PPs for the Isles should check out the Athletic article today. The team is on pace to shatter the record for fewest PPs ever in the history of the league since they started keeping these stats. To give you the quick number, the Isles are on pace for 180 PPs, only one team in the last 40 years has had under 200 and that was 191. Just put that in perspective.
No one is questioning the disparity. Obviously that is real. The differing opinions are as to WHY that is. Some claim referee bias. I think it has to do more with the style they play then referees consciously or unconsciously making calls in our opponents favor . The Isles play a very structured, defensive game. Their forwards do not play a driving, up-tempo game that typically puts defenders in a situation to commit penalties.

A legitimate question is WHY would there be a bias against the Islanders? Seriously. Why? And why now? Lack of respect from the officials? Why? Often times when we had awful teams we had plenty of PP opportunities. Hell during Doug Weight's last year we were in the top 5. Perhaps his go-go-go (and severely flawed) offensive system had something to do with that.

I don't for a minute buy that we are getting shafted by the refs. I'd bet that percentage-wise we get the same amount of calls go "against us" as other teams. It's just we are not in such positions as often as other teams because of the way we play.

That is my belief. If it makes others feel better to believe that there is an anti-Islander bias in the league then go right ahead.
 

PK Cronin

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Its become more than just an anomaly and I'm not sure how to reconcile it. Still, I think Barzal needs to shut his mouth. It seems like Trotz has impressed on him the need to not chirp at the Refs as that will only backfire. But I'm not sure why he needs to be the spokesman for the team in this article. Not saying he's wrong or saying he's out of line with anything that he said there but he just shouldn't be the guy being quoted here. He is starting to get the reputation of being a big/loud mouth and that's not the way to get calls. With a team laden with respected veterans, it would come off a lot better if Lee, Eberle, Bailey, Nelson, Clutter, Martin, etc. would be the guys to address it to the public. This won't endear him to the refs, who I'm sure know full well what's printed.

I think it's important to look at the trends during the season too. Did that really long stretch of no calls influence these numbers to look worse than they are? I haven't looked to see if there's been a noticeable uptick or not in calls, but it would be interesting to look at (kind of like a goal scoring drought). Doshell is also correct in talking about how the style of play can impact how many penalties are taken. The interesting thing to look at there would be to compare this year to last since it's pretty much the same team and same style. Checking to see the differential would go a long way in helping see if that's the case or not.

Personally, I have no issue with varying degrees of officiating because I think each game warrants a different approach. Fluctuation from game to game doesn't upset me, it's the fluctuation within a single game that is annoying. That said, officials do communicate with players and coaches throughout a game and in some cases it's possible that a referee has told the players what they're going to be calling or not calling. There's just a lot of variables. Consistency within a single game (and on replays/challenges throughout the season) is all I ask.
 
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Doshell Propivo

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I think it's important to look at the trends during the season too. Did that really long stretch of no calls influence these numbers to look worse than they are? I haven't looked to see if there's been a noticeable uptick or not in calls, but it would be interesting to look at (kind of like a goal scoring drought). Doshell is also correct in talking about how the style of play can impact how many penalties are taken. The interesting thing to look at there would be to compare this year to last since it's pretty much the same team and same style. Checking to see the differential would go a long way in helping see if that's the case or not.

Personally, I have no issue with varying degrees of officiating because I think each game warrants a different approach. Fluctuation from game to game doesn't upset me, it's the fluctuation within a single game that is annoying. That said, officials do communicate with players and coaches throughout a game and in some cases it's possible that a referee has told the players what they're going to be calling or not calling. There's just a lot of variables. Consistency within a single game (and on replays/challenges throughout the season) is all I ask.
They were toward the bottom but not dead last. Finished with 227.
 

Satan'sIsland81

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I think it's important to look at the trends during the season too. Did that really long stretch of no calls influence these numbers to look worse than they are? I haven't looked to see if there's been a noticeable uptick or not in calls, but it would be interesting to look at (kind of like a goal scoring drought). Doshell is also correct in talking about how the style of play can impact how many penalties are taken. The interesting thing to look at there would be to compare this year to last since it's pretty much the same team and same style. Checking to see the differential would go a long way in helping see if that's the case or not.

Personally, I have no issue with varying degrees of officiating because I think each game warrants a different approach. Fluctuation from game to game doesn't upset me, it's the fluctuation within a single game that is annoying. That said, officials do communicate with players and coaches throughout a game and in some cases it's possible that a referee has told the players what they're going to be calling or not calling. There's just a lot of variables. Consistency within a single game (and on replays/challenges throughout the season) is all I ask.
Which really long stretch? You ask about an uptick...you realize we are currently in the midst of a 9 game stretch with 13 PPs. That is almost unfathomable. I would be willing to bet there are many teams who have had 6-7 PPs in a single game during that stretch.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Which really long stretch? You ask about an uptick...you realize we are currently in the midst of a 9 game stretch with 13 PPs. That is almost unfathomable. I would be willing to bet there are many teams who have had 6-7 PPs in a single game during that stretch.
So why do you think this is the case? Why do the Islanders get so few powerplays?
 

PK Cronin

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They were toward the bottom but not dead last. Finished with 227.

I'm taking a quick look at the numbers now.

They had 276 drawn last year and 272 taken. It's pretty interesting, though like you I don't believe in a conspiracy against the team.

Which really long stretch? You ask about an uptick...you realize we are currently in the midst of a 9 game stretch with 13 PPs. That is almost unfathomable. I would be willing to bet there are many teams who have had 6-7 PPs in a single game during that stretch.

I know in the beginning of the year Burke harped on it non-stop. With mentions of the low amount of PP's this late in the season on the broadcast I was never quite sure if those numbers were still down because of the earlier stretch. I don't pay much attention to PP's so I didn't know that was the case during the last 9 games. I knew our differential was negative though. What is a normal amount of PP opportunities for a game?
 

Satan'sIsland81

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Feb 9, 2007
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So why do you think this is the case? Why do the Islanders get so few powerplays?
Because refs are human beings with human biases and preferences and dislikes for certain players and egos. Do you think that the Detroit Red Wings or the Ottawa Senators or the LA Kings are really pushing the play with their all out dynamic offensive styles? Why do they have so many more PPs than us? Let me ask you a question too, so you answer that one. To make a comparison in another sport, It is the same thing with the Saints in the NFL, whose overall officiating is probably 2x as bad as the NHL and that is REALLY saying something. They are one of the best teams in the league for the last three years with a dynamic offense every season, how do they keep getting shafted time after time game after game? Because the officials have a bias, it annoys them that the Saints and their fans keep pointing out how horrible the officiating is against them. The problem is these sports leagues do nothing about it. There is no repercussions for pro sports refs. They dont have to answer questions, they dont have to meet the media. They just move on to the next game. We live in a world right now where in my two favorite sports, football and hockey, old men in zebra outfits are flat out determining results of huge games that these teams play all season for and fans pay good money to see. And it is really affecting my love for sports. And I cannot imagine there are not a ton of others out there who feel the same way.
 
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mm11

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While some are griping about the refs I have to admit I'm still unsure why in game 2 vrs Canes last year that Toews goal was over turned? I'm stupid I guess as I just didn't get it. In general I cannot subject myself to thinking the Isles are blacklisted or something from the Zebras. The players will dictate this all in the end. LGI! Pound em tonight!
 

PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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Because refs are human beings with human biases and preferences and dislikes for certain players and egos. Do you think that the Detroit Red Wings or the Ottawa Senators or the LA Kings are really pushing the play with their all out dynamic offensive styles? Why do they have so many more PPs than us? Let me ask you a question too, so you answer that one. To make a comparison in another sport, It is the same thing with the Saints in the NFL, whose overall officiating is probably 2x as bad as the NHL and that is REALLY saying something. They are one of the best teams in the league for the last three years with a dynamic offense every season, how do they keep getting shafted time after time game after game? Because the officials have a bias, it annoys them that the Saints and their fans keep pointing out how horrible the officiating is against them. The problem is these sports leagues do nothing about it. There is no repercussions for pro sports refs. They dont have to answer questions, they dont have to meet the media. They just move on to the next game. We live in a world right now where in my two favorite sports, football and hockey, old men in zebra outfits are flat out determining results of huge games that these teams play all season for and fans pay good money to see. And it is really affecting my love for sports. And I cannot imagine there are not a ton of others out there who feel the same way.

So your solution to that is wanting Trotz to call out the officials despite the fact that you believe the officials don't like that, and that there are no repercussions for them if they continue doing what they already are?

I think you're right that referees have biases or preferences, etc. Developing a positive relationship with the officials is important and can help you when you need it most, but necessarily all the time. We've seen some officials this year call penalties by the letter of the law, while others let the teams play a bit more. I have no issues with that, just be consistent in the course of the game. Does it bother you when it's not consistent from one game to the next?
 

PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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While some are griping about the refs I have to admit I'm still unsure why in game 2 vrs Canes last year that Toews goal was over turned? I'm stupid I guess as I just didn't get it. In general I cannot subject myself to thinking the Isles are blacklisted or something from the Zebras. The players will dictate this all in the end. LGI! Pound em tonight!

He kicked it toward the net from below the goal line with a distinct kicking motion, which is a kick, and even though he wasn't aiming to get it into the net it doesn't count because he kicked it.
 

Bones45

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Dec 7, 2005
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Because refs are human beings with human biases and preferences and dislikes for certain players and egos. Do you think that the Detroit Red Wings or the Ottawa Senators or the LA Kings are really pushing the play with their all out dynamic offensive styles? Why do they have so many more PPs than us? Let me ask you a question too, so you answer that one. To make a comparison in another sport, It is the same thing with the Saints in the NFL, whose overall officiating is probably 2x as bad as the NHL and that is REALLY saying something. They are one of the best teams in the league for the last three years with a dynamic offense every season, how do they keep getting shafted time after time game after game? Because the officials have a bias, it annoys them that the Saints and their fans keep pointing out how horrible the officiating is against them. The problem is these sports leagues do nothing about it. There is no repercussions for pro sports refs. They dont have to answer questions, they dont have to meet the media. They just move on to the next game. We live in a world right now where in my two favorite sports, football and hockey, old men in zebra outfits are flat out determining results of huge games that these teams play all season for and fans pay good money to see. And it is really affecting my love for sports. And I cannot imagine there are not a ton of others out there who feel the same way.

If you're a ref making hundreds of thousands of dollars officiating a sport, would you put that at risk, blowing your credibility and income potential, by favoring one team or another? Additionally, hockey -- the fastest and toughest to officiate of all the sports -- refs are going to concentrate on the play, staying away from the skaters, and being able to see the play, as well as avoiding getting hit -- now they are also concentrating on making calls in favor of one team or another?

Been a frustrating year for us and the refs, but -- again -- you are making little sense on a new topic now.

Refs make mistakes -- all of them --- in all sports -- what you are saying, truly --- doesn't happen.

And lastly -- you have no idea if refs are disciplined, graded, or "written up" over blown calls.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
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Because refs are human beings with human biases and preferences and dislikes for certain players and egos. Do you think that the Detroit Red Wings or the Ottawa Senators or the LA Kings are really pushing the play with their all out dynamic offensive styles? Why do they have so many more PPs than us? Let me ask you a question too, so you answer that one. To make a comparison in another sport, It is the same thing with the Saints in the NFL, whose overall officiating is probably 2x as bad as the NHL and that is REALLY saying something. They are one of the best teams in the league for the last three years with a dynamic offense every season, how do they keep getting shafted time after time game after game? Because the officials have a bias, it annoys them that the Saints and their fans keep pointing out how horrible the officiating is against them. The problem is these sports leagues do nothing about it. There is no repercussions for pro sports refs. They dont have to answer questions, they dont have to meet the media. They just move on to the next game. We live in a world right now where in my two favorite sports, football and hockey, old men in zebra outfits are flat out determining results of huge games that these teams play all season for and fans pay good money to see. And it is really affecting my love for sports. And I cannot imagine there are not a ton of others out there who feel the same way.
I don't follow the NFL that closely to discuss calls against the Saints.

So NHL refs dislike the Islanders and like the Wings, Senators and Kings? Okay... And why is that? Last year Toronto was last in PP opportunities. Does the league hate them? I thought there was a PRO Leaf bias in the league? Or was it an anti-Leaf bias? Guess it depends on which board you read...

According to your theory, the refs liked the Islanders in '17-'18. A lot! Gave them tons of PP's! Then something happened and in '18-'19 they started disliking the Islanders. No more power plays for you! The hatred has continued this season and the refs finally got 'em where they want 'em - at the bottom for PPs! Mwuahahaha!

What do we need to do to make the refs like us again? Maybe Trotz can bake them cookies before games.

You don't think that pro referees are evaluated on and disciplined/rewarded for their performance? You really believe that? And honestly I don't see how "meeting with the media" would accomplish anything.
 

mm11

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Jan 26, 2005
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He kicked it toward the net from below the goal line with a distinct kicking motion, which is a kick, and even though he wasn't aiming to get it into the net it doesn't count because he kicked it.

Thanks, but it still baffles me. So a guy cant kick a puck from behind the goal line, have it ricochet off a few guys and end up in the net? Sorry for the tangent, it's game day. I'll get back on track
 

SI

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Feb 16, 2013
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Because refs are human beings with human biases and preferences and dislikes for certain players and egos. Do you think that the Detroit Red Wings or the Ottawa Senators or the LA Kings are really pushing the play with their all out dynamic offensive styles? Why do they have so many more PPs than us? Let me ask you a question too, so you answer that one. To make a comparison in another sport, It is the same thing with the Saints in the NFL, whose overall officiating is probably 2x as bad as the NHL and that is REALLY saying something. They are one of the best teams in the league for the last three years with a dynamic offense every season, how do they keep getting shafted time after time game after game? Because the officials have a bias, it annoys them that the Saints and their fans keep pointing out how horrible the officiating is against them. The problem is these sports leagues do nothing about it. There is no repercussions for pro sports refs. They dont have to answer questions, they dont have to meet the media. They just move on to the next game. We live in a world right now where in my two favorite sports, football and hockey, old men in zebra outfits are flat out determining results of huge games that these teams play all season for and fans pay good money to see. And it is really affecting my love for sports. And I cannot imagine there are not a ton of others out there who feel the same way.
Kerry Fraser admits ref bias

this is an older article - old habits are hard to break.

Barzal most likely on that list- if it exists- ;)
 

PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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We've been having a long conversation about the officials spanning a few GDT's so let's have a grown up discussion about the larger conversation here instead of clogging those threads up.
 
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crasherino

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May 9, 2013
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Kerry Fraser admits ref bias

this is an older article - old habits are hard to break.

Barzal most likely on that list- if it exists- ;)
While I don’t think the Islanders are subject to any type of discrimination from the refs, I do think Barzal - or his style of play - is subject to more scrutiny than perhaps other players. With his somewhat flamboyant style, I think refs may apply a critical eye towards calling penalties more so than in other situations.

I think he will have to pay his dues in the league before he starts getting the benefit of the doubt - probably similar to other young superstars. That’s why I’d like him to shut his mouth despite maybe having a legit gripe. Talking about the reffing publicly will not endear him to veteran refs. Especially when he’s still a punk kid.

But I don’t think the non-calls for Barzy are the only reason for our lack of PPs. Can’t quite explain the remainder of them. It’s odd for sure. Our style of play definitely is one reason. Is it the only one? Not sure about that.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
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When an article like this exists and refs admit it, I dont see how anyone can disagree with our criticism of refs in pro sports.
Did you read the article? Fraser only mentions how refs have (had) lists of players who were notorious divers. It doesn't support any of your wacky conspiracy theories.
 

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