The Fix: Referees, Penalties, and Bias

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Oppression olympics, hockey edition.

 

[Bones45]

Not living on the island (it's 'on', not 'in', right?), I usually get the other teams' feed, and commentators, so I get a somewhat different perspective.

For example, in tonight's game, the Canes' announcers were saying that the tripping call on Barzal was wrong. The comment, as close as I can recall, was "His stick was in the neighborhood, but he was going down anyway. Phantom call." Pretty clear penalty in my mind, but they didn't think so, or at least weren't telling their audience that.

I hear it all the time. According to other teams' announcers, the refs call everything on their team, while they let us get away with murder.

It's largely a matter of perspective: between listening to other commentators as well as ours, reading posts from other fans as well as ours, and having done some officiating and a fair bit of coaching, I maybe see the different viewpoints a bit more clearly.

Personally, I would rather see more penalties, particularly stick infractions, called, but since we have one of the weaker powerplays, I don't mind letting a few go each way. And I have to admit that I often question a call, only to watch a replay and be impressed with how they managed to get it right.

I don't always agree with calls, or non-calls, but I don't think the refs are that bad, and certainly not deliberately so.

Nice post -- and I agree -- but there is no place for this type of rational thought on this board -- and certainly not in "the refs are against us" thread.

It is funny how people actually believe that there is a conspiracy against the Isles. Mind numbing.

 

[Le Grec]

I've said this before, the problem is not the refs, it's the culture. Hockey is the only sport I constantly hear the dumb adage of "let the players play". So if you're a team that chooses to play clean, and you're up against a team that has a " if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" mentality, you're f***ed.

I can't remember which recent game it was, but there was a play where one of the Isles hit the other player in front of the ref. As the the player was down, he held on to the Isles players stick, preventing him from going forward. The ref made no call, and Butchie said he prefers it that way, which is f***ing dumb.

It's the refs job to call penalties, not control a game, period. This is how we get most of the controversy.

To use another example, the Brassard crosscheck against the Rags. Was it a good call? Yes, had they called the other shit throughout the game. But they didn't. And now near the end of a close game, the refs think that's enough.
Had they called everything, maybe Brass doesn't think he can get away with the crosscheck.

And another thing, let the refs make the decisions on video reviews. Is there anything more frustrating then someone who isn't in the building, hiding in an office, doing the refs job?

Until the NHL fixes some of these issues, people and myself included will not trust them and have reasonable reason to think there is something fishy going on...

 

[Merrrlin]

I've said this before, the problem is not the refs, it's the culture. Hockey is the only sport I constantly hear the dumb adage of "let the players play". So if you're a team that chooses to play clean, and you're up against a team that has a " if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" mentality, you're f***ed.

I can't remember which recent game it was, but there was a play where one of the Isles hit the other player in front of the ref. As the the player was down, he held on to the Isles players stick, preventing him from going forward. The ref made no call, and Butchie said he prefers it that way, which is f***ing dumb.

It's the refs job to call penalties, not control a game, period. This is how we get most of the controversy.

To use another example, the Brassard crosscheck against the Rags. Was it a good call? Yes, had they called the other shit throughout the game. But they didn't. And now near the end of a close game, the refs think that's enough.
Had they called everything, maybe Brass doesn't think he can get away with the crosscheck.

And another thing, let the refs make the decisions on video reviews. Is there anything more frustrating then someone who isn't in the building, hiding in an office, doing the refs job?

Until the NHL fixes some of these issues, people and myself included will not trust them and have reasonable reason to think there is something fishy going on...

Well said...so much "boys will be boys" mentality, which is fine if that's consistent, but it's not. The games get managed to keep them close and interesting, and there is data to support that (look up the game management article on here). Half the time you see interference go uncalled, but if the home crowd reacts and the player flails, or if the offending team is up, then suddenly it gets called. I can understand why the players always look so confused and lost.

 

[Le Grec]

Well said...so much "boys will be boys" mentality, which is fine if that's consistent, but it's not. The games get managed to keep them close and interesting, and there is data to support that (look up the game management article on here). Half the time you see interference go uncalled, but if the home crowd reacts and the player flails, or if the offending team is up, then suddenly it gets called. I can understand why the players always look so confused and lost.

People seem to attribute bad calls to human error. Growing up, I watched the other 3 big sports regularly. Did I see bad calls made? Of course. The big difference is those other refs called everything they thought was an infraction, every game, anytime during the game. I never once in 40 years watched an NFL game, and the refs didn't make calls, so the players can play. Or even worse, because it was the last 2 minutes of the game and the refs didn't want to get involved.

In fact, I've never heard an announcer from the other 3 sports say, "this official likes to call a game this way or that way".

What's even worse about the NHL ref culture, the part that irritates me the most, is how arrogant the refs look. They remind me of prison guards in films, who have an attitude of my way or the highway, instead of actually doing their job properly.

It is what it is, and it won't change until the league stops hiring idiots like Colin Campbell, or George f***ing Parros...

 

[notDatsyuk]

People seem to attribute bad calls to human error. Growing up, I watched the other 3 big sports regularly. Did I see bad calls made? Of course. The big difference is those other refs called everything they thought was an infraction, every game, anytime during the game. I never once in 40 years watched an NFL game, and the refs didn't make calls, so the players can play. Or even worse, because it was the last 2 minutes of the game and the refs didn't want to get involved.

In fact, I've never heard an announcer from the other 3 sports say, "this official likes to call a game this way or that way".

What's even worse about the NHL ref culture, the part that irritates me the most, is how arrogant the refs look. They remind me of prison guards in films, who have an attitude of my way or the highway, instead of actually doing their job properly.

It is what it is, and it won't change until the league stops hiring idiots like Colin Campbell, or George f***ing Parros...

Seriously? I've heard that refs in football say that there is at least one penalty that could be called on every single play; I have seen travelling called once in a basketball game, although it happens frequently; and don't get me started on the strike zone!

I do agree that some hockey fans whine about the officiating more than some fans of other sports.

 

[Le Grec]

Seriously? I've heard that refs in football say that there is at least one penalty that could be called on every single play; I have seen travelling called once in a basketball game, although it happens frequently; and don't get me started on the strike zone!

I do agree that some hockey fans whine about the officiating more than some fans of other sports.

Again, I'm not saying the other sports refs don't miss calls, what I'm saying they don't disregard them so the players can play.

As for the strike zone, it's understandable for umps to have different strike zones, as it is a very precise call to make. I get what you're saying, but I think it's different beast...

 

[notDatsyuk]

Again, I'm not saying the other sports refs don't miss calls, what I'm saying they don't disregard them so the players can play.

As for the strike zone, it's understandable for umps to have different strike zones, as it is a very precise call to make. I get what you're saying, but I think it's different beast...

Except for baseball, where everything except the strike zone is very much black and white (fair/foul, caught/missed, safe/out), the other sports, including soccer, all have many situations where there are fouls that could be called, and aren't. If the officials in football say there is at least one callable penalty in every play, and don't call them, I would say that's disregarding them so the players can play.

 

[Le Grec]

Except for baseball, where everything except the strike zone is very much black and white (fair/foul, caught/missed, safe/out), the other sports, including soccer, all have many situations where there are fouls that could be called, and aren't. If the officials in football say there is at least one callable penalty in every play, and don't call them, I would say that's disregarding them so the players can play.

I think what the officials in football are trying to say is that there is so much going on they miss one per play. Big difference from letting one slide...

 

[Axel574]

Seriously? I've heard that refs in football say that there is at least one penalty that could be called on every single play; I have seen travelling called once in a basketball game, although it happens frequently; and don't get me started on the strike zone!

I do agree that some hockey fans whine about the officiating more than some fans of other sports.

Basketball has been ruined by this, after allowing Jordan and Ewing to travel at will because the moves "looked nice." I don't watch the NBA much anymore. It's laughable because 90% of the drives to net are traveling. I've seen a player pick up their dribble just inside the three point line and dunk. It doesn't get any more ridiculous than that...

 

[Bones45]

For the record, it seems that hockey is the toughest sport to officiate BY FAR -- but by all means -- keep discussing.

Alex Jones is on his way....

 

[notDatsyuk]

I think what the officials in football are trying to say is that there is so much going on they miss one per play. Big difference from letting one slide...

If they notice them enough to say they could call them, and don't, isn't that letting them slide?

And if they totally miss that many, then why is anyone suggesting that NHL refs are the worst?

 

[notDatsyuk]

For the record, it seems that hockey is the toughest sport to officiate BY FAR -- but by all means -- keep discussing.

Alex Jones is on his way....

What? You think that just because hockey is about three times as fast as any other sport (except maybe Irish hurling), that would make it harder to ref? How silly.

 

[Bones45]

What? You think that just because hockey is about three times as fast as any other sport (except maybe Irish hurling), that would make it harder to ref? How silly.

Half the toolbags on this site don't know how to skate I'm sure...

 

[notDatsyuk]

I think what the officials in football are trying to say is that there is so much going on they miss one per play. Big difference from letting one slide...

So you're saying they are incredibly bad, because they only see (and call) one penalty every ten plays, and miss the other nine?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Half the toolbags on this site don't know how to skate I'm sure...

I've only been skating for about 65 years, mainly playing hockey, with a very small bit of speedskating and figure skating thrown in.

 

[Pitaya]

Really isnt that hard to figure out...

Islanders are 16 PPs below Anaheim. Islanders play very low-event hockey - hence the lowest goals for among playoff-eligible teams. Islanders are coached by defensive wizard thus less transitional speed. Most penalties are taken in the neutral zone and/or transition

= low PP totals

There is no bias among the refs for the Islanders lol

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Basketball has been ruined by this, after allowing Jordan and Ewing to travel at will because the moves "looked nice." I don't watch the NBA much anymore. It's laughable because 90% of the drives to net are traveling. I've seen a player pick up their dribble just inside the three point line and dunk. It doesn't get any more ridiculous than that...

Sometimes it is easy to count 4 steps before a layup or dunk, and do not get me started on guys swapping pivot feet. Even more amazing is that the Knicks own NYC, despite being the most poorly run organization in North America.

 

[beach]

Basketball has been ruined by this, after allowing Jordan and Ewing to travel at will because the moves "looked nice." I don't watch the NBA much anymore. It's laughable because 90% of the drives to net are traveling. I've seen a player pick up their dribble just inside the three point line and dunk. It doesn't get any more ridiculous than that...

And, they could bowl over two guys with who had position in the lane, and the defenders would get the penalty. Ridiculous.

 

[Le Grec]

If they notice them enough to say they could call them, and don't, isn't that letting them slide?

And if they totally miss that many, then why is anyone suggesting that NHL refs are the worst?

So you're saying they are incredibly bad, because they only see (and call) one penalty every ten plays, and miss the other nine?

You're not grasping what I'm saying.

Let's imagine for conversation sake the refs are cops.
What the NFL cops are saying is that there is so much crime going on that some criminals are going to get away with their crimes. It's not intentional, there is just so much they can do. But they will make arrests every chance they get.

NHL cops will see someone steal something, deem it a minor crime, and let it slide, because boys will be boys...

 

[notDatsyuk]

You're not grasping what I'm saying.

Let's imagine for conversation sake the refs are cops.
What the NFL cops are saying is that there is so much crime going on that some criminals are going to get away with their crimes. It's not intentional, there is just so much they can do. But they will make arrests every chance they get.

NHL cops will see someone steal something, deem it a minor crime, and let it slide, because boys will be boys...

Except that cops know there is a lot they don't see, because they are reported by the victims. The NFL refs admit that they see them but don't call them because there are too many.

A better analogy would be a cop with a radar gun on a busy street where everyone is speeding, so they have to just pick and choose, preferably the fastest and/or most dangerous.

 

[Ziggy16]

a common theme that ive noticed is that, a lot of times the official closet to the penalty doesnt call it when its gonna give us a PP, and when we get a penalty, its the official FURTHEST AWAY who calls it.. how is it that the one closest to the play is consistantly not making the calls, but the one at center ice is.. and the trend is increasing everytime a questionable call is being made, its the ref FURTHEST away making the call, when the one staring right at it, with the best view ISNT

 

[notDatsyuk]

a common theme that ive noticed is that, a lot of times the official closet to the penalty doesnt call it when its gonna give us a PP, and when we get a penalty, its the official FURTHEST AWAY who calls it.. how is it that the one closest to the play is consistantly not making the calls, but the one at center ice is.. and the trend is increasing everytime a questionable call is being made, its the ref FURTHEST away making the call, when the one staring right at it, with the best view ISNT

As a general rule, the ref closest to the play is watching the puck more, while trying to keep out of the way, and the ref farther away has a better overall view.