The Fix: Referees, Penalties, and Bias

MikeyMike01

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Jul 13, 2007
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You would expect the penalty distribution in the league to be normally distributed. To have one team so far behind the rest, is not a result of on-ice play. It is a decision made by the referees. To suggest otherwise is laughable.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
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You would expect the penalty distribution in the league to be normally distributed. To have one team so far behind the rest, is not a result of on-ice play. It is a decision made by the referees. To suggest otherwise is laughable.
:laugh::help::thumbu:

LOL!!!!!!

Yep, the referees decided to punish the Islanders! LOL The stupidity here is fascinating.
 
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MikeyMike01

U.S.S. Wang
Jul 13, 2007
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:laugh::help::thumbu:

LOL!!!!!!

Yep, the referees decided to punish the Islanders! LOL The stupidity here is fascinating.

Getting a data point this far below the others is extremely noteworthy. It’s basic statistics, which may be beyond the intellect of some.

Maybe you can understand me better in this format: LOL CRAZY STAT STAND OUT WOWEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Doshell Propivo

Registered User
Dec 5, 2005
11,233
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Getting a data point this far below the others is extremely noteworthy. It’s basic statistics, which may be beyond the intellect of some.

Maybe you can understand me better in this format: LOL CRAZY STAT STAND OUT WOWEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ummm yeah... okay...
 

JKP

Registered User
Sep 19, 2004
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That's all well and good, but the **** refs that don't get postseason work will be right back the next season to continue screwing things up. If it really is a meritocracy, it should also decide who shouldn't be back or needs more guidance/training so they don't suck at their job - or not suck so bad at least. No accountability.
Want to hold them more accountable, make the refs do a 5 minute post-game scrum with the media...

I think the officiating this year has been terrible. Isles or otherwise.

As for Barzal, maybe it was on Staples podcast that is was posited the refs make the young superstars earn their stripes. Crosby whined a lot about the refs in his first few years. Who knows.

I also remember reading an article that the NHL develops refs by recruiting former college players more so than by scouting amateur refs. So maybe some of them have a thing for the stars because they weren't good enough... again, who knows.

On Staple's podcast, Mark Parrish talked about the year Osgood was with the team and was constantly going into the room saying "I can't believe that wasn't called, that would have been penalty for sure in Detroit."

Maybe the refs don't like the Marriott...

All I know is it's bad, but there isn't sweet FA any of us can do about it. :(

(and it's still 10X better than the NFL reffing...)
 
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Le Grec

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Jun 28, 2011
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So maybe some of them have a thing for the stars because they weren't good enough... again, who knows.

This is another reality that doesn't get mentioned. I had the privilege of growing with people who were connected to the Habs and NHL.Whenever I watched games with these individuals and they objected to calls being made or not, someone always had a story about the ref, and how they sucked at hockey and took out their frustrations on the ice, especially if someone they knew back in the day was playing.
I once asked "if they are so petty, how did they get the job?" And a league official said with a straight face, "they are dedicated assholes, and they will do anything to prove how small they are."
 

notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
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I have discovered the secret!

There is a list, but it's not of players or teams.

It's a list of the fan bases that do the most whining! Based on the amount of moaning and groaning by the team's fans, both on these boards and in the arenas, refs decide whether or not to call penalties.

So for the sake of our team, please shut the f*** up!

:sarcasm:
 

Tres Peleches

Johnny Turncoat
Jul 13, 2011
8,160
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I have discovered the secret!

There is a list, but it's not of players or teams.

It's a list of the fan bases that do the most whining! Based on the amount of moaning and groaning by the team's fans, both on these boards and in the arenas, refs decide whether or not to call penalties.

So for the sake of our team, please shut the **** up!

:sarcasm:
The only thing better than whining about refs is whining about people whining about the refs
 
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notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
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Consider a couple of 'facts':

- we can't score on our powerplays
- other teams can
- refs tend to 'even up' the calls.

So, instead of each team getting, say, five powerplays, where the other team scores twice and we're lucky to score once, isn't it better for us if no penalties are called?

So, by not calling penalties against our opponents, the refs are actually showing a bias in our favor!

If they called a quarter of the penalties against Barzal that they should, we would get ten powerplays each game, and they would feel obligated to give the other team at least five. Result? We might get one PP goal, and give up two or three.

QED.
 
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Big L

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Consider a couple of 'facts':

- we can't score on our powerplays
- other teams can
- refs tend to 'even up' the calls.

So, instead of each team getting, say, five powerplays, where the other team scores twice and we're lucky to score once, isn't it better for us if no penalties are called?

So, by not calling penalties against our opponents, the refs are actually showing a bias in our favor!

If they called a quarter of the penalties against Barzal that they should, we would get ten powerplays each game, and they would feel obligated to give the other team at least five. Result? We might get one PP goal, and give up two or three.

QED.
Fair point.

I’ll allow it.
 

LeapOnOver

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Honestly, I don't want more PP's called for us. It's just basically two minutes of "guaranteed we aren't going to score and look like fools doing it". This PP is a train wreck. It's so disturbing when you watch other teams PPs, even the bottom feeders and their PP is an actual threat and miles better than our disgusting mish-mash of stupidity. This is where Jaffe would say, "Isles get a PP so take a bathroom break or get a beer. Nothing to see here".

So this is the part where I'm just guessing and speaking my mind, so if you still want to address my comments that I'm making stuff up or blah blah, there is no need because I am. I am concerned that Barzal's style might wear thin on some of the vets. Lee, Clutter, Bailey, Boychuk all seem like no nonsense kind of guys (well, maybe not Boychuk lol), and I wonder if they wished Barzal would just shut up and put up, because he really hasn't been. He's not really dynamic on the PP at all. He makes a lot of poor decisions and him whirling and twirling on the side boards is not what gets guys open. It's quick puck movement....letting the puck do the work. Isles are methodical, just like 5 v 5 and it's boring as hell. Players should be looking at the PP as a chance to free wheel and take risks, but they play it like it's their 5 v 5 game, just with more room. It's nauseating to watch, the Isles powerless play.
 
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PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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Honestly, I don't want more PP's called for us. It's just basically two minutes of "guaranteed we aren't going to score and look like fools doing it". This PP is a train wreck. It's so disturbing when you watch other teams PPs, even the bottom feeders and their PP is an actual threat and miles better than our disgusting mish-mash of stupidity. This is where Jaffe would say, "Isles get a PP so take a bathroom break or get a beer. Nothing to see here".

So this is the part where I'm just guessing and speaking my mind, so if you still want to address my comments that I'm making stuff up or blah blah, there is no need because I am. I am concerned that Barzal's style might wear thin on some of the vets. Lee, Clutter, Bailey, Boychuk all seem like no nonsense kind of guys (well, maybe not Boychuk lol), and I wonder if they wished Barzal would just shut up and put up, because he really hasn't been. He's not really dynamic on the PP at all. He makes a lot of poor decisions and him whirling and twirling on the side boards is not what gets guys open. It's quick puck movement....letting the puck do the work. Isles are methodical, just like 5 v 5 and it's boring as hell. Players should be looking at the PP as a chance to free wheel and take risks, but they play it like it's their 5 v 5 game, just with more room. It's nauseating to watch, the Isles powerless play.

I think you're right that his whirling and twirling doesn't get anyone open, but I don't think there's an issue between him and the vets They understand he's the most talented player on the team and he's got skills nobody else comes close to touching.

The power play for me has a few problems. One is that there are too many one dimensional players on it. Barzal, Bailey, and Leddy are strictly passers. Nelson and Lee are strictly shooters, who can't shoot one timers. There are no legitimate snipers who can get off a one timer other than Pulock and since he's the only option for that other teams know how to cover it. They are back to be stagnant again too, so Barzal sets up on one wall and stays there, Bailey on the other and he stays there. They can't rotate much because guys like Lee and Bailey can't switch roles because it'd turn into a disaster more than it already is. Eberle is useful because he can play as a shooter and a passer, we need a better version of him. Another aspect I think they stink at is their options. They look for the seem pass and that's pretty much it. Where's option two? Every time the puck moves it should have a number of predictable plays, including players moving and jumping into holes.

I can't help but think of the Capitals PP and how Backstrom is able to operate even when Ovechkin is taken away. It works because Carlson can shoot from the top too, Backstrom can shoot, and players like Oshie can shoot or rotate out into other spots. It allows for more rotation for them and more confusion for the opposition. They're deliberate when moving the puck, knowing if they move the puck from point A to point B that's going to move the defenders to a specific spot that then opens ups another option. They know it and move it with authority to make it happen. Even when our PP was in the to half of the league it's not something this team ever did. Always slow, always taking the path of least resistance instead of dictating where the resistance will come from.
 
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LeapOnOver

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I think you're right that his whirling and twirling doesn't get anyone open, but I don't think there's an issue between him and the vets They understand he's the most talented player on the team and he's got skills nobody else comes close to touching.

The power play for me has a few problems. One is that there are too many one dimensional players on it. Barzal, Bailey, and Leddy are strictly passers. Nelson and Lee are strictly shooters, who can't shoot one timers. There are no legitimate snipers who can get off a one timer other than Pulock and since he's the only option for that other teams know how to cover it. They are back to be stagnant again too, so Barzal sets up on one wall and stays there, Bailey on the other and he stays there. They can't rotate much because guys like Lee and Bailey can't switch roles because it'd turn into a disaster more than it already is. Eberle is useful because he can play as a shooter and a passer, we need a better version of him. Another aspect I think they stink at is their options. They look for the seem pass and that's pretty much it. Where's option two? Every time the puck moves it should have a number of predictable plays, including players moving and jumping into holes.

I can't help but think of the Capitals PP and how Backstrom is able to operate even when Ovechkin is taken away. It works because Carlson can shoot from the top too, Backstrom can shoot, and players like Oshie can shoot or rotate out into other spots. It allows for more rotation for them and more confusion for the opposition. They're deliberate when moving the puck, knowing if they move the puck from point A to point B that's going to move the defenders to a specific spot that then opens ups another option. They know it and move it with authority to make it happen. Even when our PP was in the to half of the league it's not something this team ever did. Always slow, always taking the path of least resistance instead of dictating where the resistance will come from.


Yeah, all good points. The one dimensional make-up is definitely a huge issue and probably explains why they've gone through so many coaches with no improvement.
 

LeapOnOver

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Well, kind of got to the bottom of this and a bit reluctant to share, but:

My grandmother's bunion doctor has a patient who is the great grandfather of a girl who lives next door to the pool guy for Don Koharski. He told this guy that last time he visited some buddies at the referees lounge at their headquarters that he saw a dartboard with an Islanders logo and it was quite worn. He was telling them how he's bored in retirement and misses the action. They told him to stop 'Barzalling' to them and 'Barzal' to his wife about it. He figured they've changed 'complain' to 'Barzal' in their inner circles. They also have a long standing bet going where the first referee to get Trotz to throw something on the ice will win a brand new white SUV. Was pretty shocking to hear but I hope this confirms some people's suspicions because this thread has high entertainment value.

*none of this is true, and it's a shame I have to label it as such
 
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joekono

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Apr 29, 2016
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This vendetta from Toronto and the refs that has gone on forever, is really making me :pb:. I'm 50, and was lucky enough to see and enjoy the Islanders run in the 80s. After that run, of course you can't be greedy and those cups kept me happy for 10 years until the 92-93 team came along. Sorry his may be drawn out and maybe some of you in the AARP club with me will remember some of this. That playoff year was exciting(with all of the OT games) but after Hunter put Turgeon into the boards, that was it, the Islanders beat Pittsburgh without him but do you know what the NHL and TV did to the Islanders? Game 7 was a Friday night and the Islanders had to start the semi-finals against the Canadiens at 1:00 that Sunday. The Islanders had no chance in game 1. After getting their bearings, the Islanders lost game 2 in 2 OT and game 3 in OT. The Canadiens actually went 10 of 11 in OT on the way to winning the Cup that year. Fast forward to 2002 and Micheal Peca,enough said. Since then we've seen Crosby cry and get a call, Marchand and Malkin being dirty. Judas never got any calls when he was here and neither does Barzal. The call for him embellishing the other night was pure B^llsh*t. The refs and Toronto definitely have it in for us. I know you all know the refs are against us because I read the board. I just really am starting to feel good about this team(Belmont included) and even though we struggled a few weeks ago, it seems they have just had some big wins. We have Trotz and Lou too and I really don't feel like getting screwed by the refs. We just need to play that "boring" Trotz system because it's how the game is played in the playoffs and those games are won by a goal either regulation or OT. I could see it now, Game 1 against Washington and :13 seconds into OT of game one, the refs call a bench minor because Trotz sneezes. Two refs are two much, ever notice how they get in the ISLANDERS way. Sorry about the long post, this is pissing me off! BTW, anyone hate the fact that Varlamov sets up INSIDE the net? Just wondering.:hockey: Ooops! Two minute penalty to number 13 for celebrating a goal, all five skaters to serve the penalty:pb::pb::pb::pb::pb:
 
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benedictTavares

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The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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At some point, the reffing is bound to even out one would think...It's the Islander way to win despite the bad calls or no calls. take that with a grain of satisfaction!
 

crasherino

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May 9, 2013
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I thought the dive call was warranted - especially after watching it a few times. Butch gave that ref a hard time on the air - really called him out for his inexperience - and it was unwarranted. It was a ballsy call but IMO a legit one. It’s possible that it wasn’t a dive but it looked pretty damning.
 
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Islanders4Cups

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May 4, 2002
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Not sure if anyone has done this yet, but I wanted to see how much the lack of powerplays has been hurting the team. I tried to see how many more goals they'd have with an average number of opportunities.

Teams right in the middle of the pack have about 143 powerplay opps - 44 more than the Isles. Isles are averaging goals on 19.2% of PPs - 44 x .192 = 8.4 goals. While that doesn't do much in terms of moving them up the team leaderboard (from 22nd in goals to 20th), given all of the tightly contested games they play, you gotta think another 8 goals is worth 4, maybe 5 points. Of course, this is all conjecture - but interesting (depressing) to think about

Yes, this is a good analysis and shows the impact. Consider the Isles have been involved in 10 one goal game losses (6 in OT/SO and 4 in regulation). Just one additional powerplay in those games could certainly result in 3-4 points which could be huge at the end of the season.

But, I don't think there is an overall planned bias against the Islanders. There has to be a team with the lowest amount of power plays. This year it is us. Put an asterisk as it is the lowest in decades.

That said, I do believe there is added pressure on the refs to keep nationally televised games on NBC Sports close. The Isles jumped out to big leads in consecutive NBC games and that added pressure. No doubt.

1) How much would the league have loved for NBC to televise Ovechkins 700th goal in DC. Instead fans were sitting on their hands most of the game.

2) The resurgence of Philadelphia into a playoff chase and their following in the US and Canada surely contributed to 10’s of thousands of viewers on NBC that would have dwindled had the Islanders blew them out after going up 3-0. Power plays change momentum and so the non calls and then those calls in the third period were clearly to make it a close/exciting finish in my opinion.

I know I was on the edge of my seat in the third period during both those games be it I preferred to relax.

If you don’t think money talks in this league, you are naive. I have to think you will see it with the Rangers emergence in the coming years. It is about the money.

My only wish is that league officials recognize players like Matt Barzal whose skating is elite albeit his hands are not.

Barzals smaller frame, speed, and his riding his skate edges unlike 98% of the other players in the league makes him susceptible to trips that may not look like much when the foul occurs. It is that perception and Barzals reactions that are the problem here.

When it happens during scoring chances, players like Barzal should be protected just like other elite players who when touched are protected.

Again, I do not think it is an Islander thing, but seeing that trip being called a penalty on Barzal for diving (while also calling the trip) the other night and the trip on Barzal with 5 minutes left in the second period vs the Caps not being called is bad for the league.

I cannot for the life of me understand those calls/non calls there. There should be an awareness with Barzal, as there is with Matthews and Eichel and others, when they are creating scoring chances.

Clearly the league is trying to showcase elite players and scoring and clearly Barzal is not getting the same treatment as other elite players in the league IMO. If Barzal said something, get over it already, as Trotz has clearly done his part to tell the kid to zip it and he has.
 

LeapOnOver

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Yes, this is a good analysis and shows the impact. Consider the Isles have been involved in 10 one goal game losses (6 in OT/SO and 4 in regulation). Just one additional powerplay in those games could certainly result in 3-4 points which could be huge at the end of the season.

But, I don't think there is an overall planned bias against the Islanders. There has to be a team with the lowest amount of power plays. This year it is us. Put an asterisk as it is the lowest in decades.

That said, I do believe there is added pressure on the refs to keep nationally televised games on NBC Sports close. The Isles jumped out to big leads in consecutive NBC games and that added pressure. No doubt.

1) How much would the league have loved for NBC to televise Ovechkins 700th goal in DC. Instead fans were sitting on their hands most of the game.

2) The resurgence of Philadelphia into a playoff chase and their following in the US and Canada surely contributed to 10’s of thousands of viewers on NBC that would have dwindled had the Islanders blew them out after going up 3-0. Power plays change momentum and so the non calls and then those calls in the third period were clearly to make it a close/exciting finish in my opinion.

I know I was on the edge of my seat in the third period during both those games be it I preferred to relax.

If you don’t think money talks in this league, you are naive. I have to think you will see it with the Rangers emergence in the coming years. It is about the money.

My only wish is that league officials recognize players like Matt Barzal whose skating is elite albeit his hands are not.

Barzals smaller frame, speed, and his riding his skate edges unlike 98% of the other players in the league makes him susceptible to trips that may not look like much when the foul occurs. It is that perception and Barzals reactions that are the problem here.

When it happens during scoring chances, players like Barzal should be protected just like other elite players who when touched are protected.

Again, I do not think it is an Islander thing, but seeing that trip being called a penalty on Barzal for diving (while also calling the trip) the other night and the trip on Barzal with 5 minutes left in the second period vs the Caps not being called is bad for the league.

I cannot for the life of me understand those calls/non calls there. There should be an awareness with Barzal, as there is with Matthews and Eichel and others, when they are creating scoring chances.

Clearly the league is trying to showcase elite players and scoring and clearly Barzal is not getting the same treatment as other elite players in the league IMO. If Barzal said something, get over it already, as Trotz has clearly done his part to tell the kid to zip it and he has.

If any of this were true there'd be a color photo of the TML winning Lord Stanley's Cup.
 
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notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
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We have to add this one to the conspiracy nut collection:

On the Leafs' board, someone has suggested that the OT goal called back against the Predators last week (a pretty obvious goalie interference) was actually a retaliation call by the refs, for a Matthews goal against the Preds that was called back for goalie interference two years ago!

Was last nights disallowed goal retribution for this Matthews goal that was waived off?
 

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