The "Fire Michel Therrien" Thread

[td_ice]

I missed the Carolina game but it's disheartening to hear Therrien already gave up on Cooke - Malkin - Crosby. That is just inexcusable given the current scenario and where we came from just a week or so ago. This guy clearly buys into the "there are no permanent lines, everybody must play with everybody" theory and continually harps on it by jumbling the lines even when he finds a few that start to build some momentum and confidence. Asshattery at its finest.

As for the trap, not sure how you give up 50 shots but I'm more concerned how we give up only 2 goals and lose anyway. Our PP as noted, just sucks. Constantly out of sync and very predictable. Even when we won a few. Sadly Therrien will go nowhere unless the team takes another nose-dive.

Stability in lines has never been a concern for Therrien. There is never a time to gel. Too much desperation in our coach, imo. Whether it is going off on players, or constantly changing lines.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I'm more concerned about our nose-dive defensively. This was one of the best defensive teams last year, and with Letang and Goligoski getting more experience, they should have been able to at least hold serve defensively while Gonchar is out.

Whitney being out hurt, no doubt, but it's not like he was noted for stellar defensive play to begin with. Gonchar had one of his best defensive seasons of his career last year, but it wasn't like he was singlehandedly shutting teams down.

I suppose inserting Gonchar into the lineup would bump everyone else down 1, and make our depth look much better, but still it we've been terrible defensively this year. If not for MAF keeping us in some games at the beginning of the season, or winning games for us, we could be in a lot worse trouble.

Anyone else concerned that we haven't heard much of anything about Orpik's injury?

 

[HandshakeLine]

And while I'm talking numbers, here's some interesting things to think about.

1) Jordan Staal's improved scoring. As of today, Staal has already improved his goal scoring on last year, is a few goals away from matching his rookie high, and 2 points off of last year's point totals. Not mind blowing, but definite improvement.

2) Brooks Orpik has matched his season-high offensive contribution, and is in the process of setting a new record for his best offensive season to date. I'm not saying he's becoming Denis Potvin or anything, but he certainly has stepped up his game in that regard.

3) Kennedy has matched last year's point total in 21 fewer games. This is pretty self-explanatory. He's maturing nicely and should be a really good 3rd liner if his development continues on par AND he can stay healthy.

4) Rob Scuderi is one point away from his all time high, points-per-season in well over 30 less games.

While we tend to think of the Pens as a team that only wins on the backs of Sid and Geno, there has been some surprising improvements in other players' scoring. However, the reason we seem to be dropping, statistically, seems to be other teams have improved more dramatically than us.

Why exactly that is is open for debate, but it's interesting to see, I think.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'm more concerned about our nose-dive defensively. This was one of the best defensive teams last year, and with Letang and Goligoski getting more experience, they should have been able to at least hold serve defensively while Gonchar is out.

Whitney being out hurt, no doubt, but it's not like he was noted for stellar defensive play to begin with. Gonchar had one of his best defensive seasons of his career last year, but it wasn't like he was singlehandedly shutting teams down.

I suppose inserting Gonchar into the lineup would bump everyone else down 1, and make our depth look much better, but still it we've been terrible defensively this year. If not for MAF keeping us in some games at the beginning of the season, or winning games for us, we could be in a lot worse trouble.

Anyone else concerned that we haven't heard much of anything about Orpik's injury?

I disagree with that. There was a reason that Gonchar was getting mentions for the Norris last year. He was really, honestly, good.

Losing him hurts on both sides of the coin, and Letang and Goligoski will take several more years before they can even start thinking about hitting that level. I mean, look how long it took Gonchar to realize his defensive potential. He was way worse than Whitney in his own end for many, many years. WAY worse.

Letang and Goligoski are improving very quickly and developing very very fast. They just have a much longer way to go than players at most other positions.

 

[td_ice]

I do think part of it is the Stanley cup hangover.

Watching the team sleepwalk through so many games, it is clear to me that a lot of problems are attitudinal. There is no sense of urgency, jump, or compete in many periods of many (too many) games they play.

Steigy talked about this the other day in an interview. He talked about it with Stanley Cup winning coach, (ex-Pen) Randy Carlyle of the Ducks. Steigy relayed Carlyle's take on the mental aspect of playing the next season, coming from such an emotional high.

RC: "no matter how you want to, you simply can't recreate that feeling. You may want to, and know you have to, but you just can't. The intensity is so high in those games, and you need such an edge. When you go back to the regular season, that feeling is just not there."

I don't know how high it is, but it is on that list with poor coaching, too many injuries, and loss of key players.

Steigy also mentioned Crosby's play, and his poor decision making. Feels Sid needs to simplify his game as an example to others.

Feels maybe Malone and Ruutu have left a bit of a leadership gap. (Steigy said they were guys that would constantly remind others to play "simple".)

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I disagree with that. There was a reason that Gonchar was getting mentions for the Norris last year. He was really, honestly, good.

Losing him hurts on both sides of the coin, and Letang and Goligoski will take several more years before they can even start thinking about hitting that level. I mean, look how long it took Gonchar to realize his defensive potential. He was way worse than Whitney in his own end for many, many years. WAY worse.

Letang and Goligoski are improving very quickly and developing very very fast. They just have a much longer way to go than players at most other positions.

I agree that he was great last year defensively, but with Letang and Gogo getting more experience one would think they could help to make up for the loss. Obviously there would still be a drop-off but who would have thought it would be this drastic.

I suppose once you figure in the loss of Whitney, Orpik for a few games, Scuderi for a few games, etc. it just adds up.

 

[Super Sniper Cele]

Like it or not, results matter.

Apparently you're wrong, otherwise Therrien would be a fan favorite. After all, he did take us to within two games of winning the cup last season. How soon you all forget that.

Oh wait, that's right, Therrien only gets recognized when the team is going through a slump, but not when they're 14-6 in the playoffs.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Apparently you're wrong, otherwise Therrien would be a fan favorite. After all, he did take us to within two games of winning the cup last season. How soon you all forget that.

Oh wait, that's right, Therrien only gets recognized when the team is going through a slump, but not when they're 14-6 in the playoffs.

Or how soon people forget how unprepared we were those first two games of the Cup final. It was really awesome.

In Game 2, the Red Wings had eight shots before the Penguins had even one, and two of those found the net behind Fleury. Sergei Gonchar's power-play chance nearly 12 minutes into the first period was the first time anyone noticed that goalie Chris Osgood had reported for work.

When the first period ended, the Penguins had gone 95 minutes, 57 seconds since they last scored a goal. Perhaps you recall it. Early in the third period against Philadelphia nine days ago?

Naw, me neither.

It's now 135 minutes and change, if you're still interested.

http://postgazette.com/pg/08148/885120-150.stm

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also, this quote from that article was kind of hilarious in retrospect too:

If all that weren't embarrassing enough, Penguins coach Michel Therrien was intent on blaming the officials, who are about the 82nd most impactful architects of this 2-0 well the Penguins find themselves in.

Since history seems to be repeating itself so much these days, I think it's good to stop and think about this for a bit. Injuries, officiating, bad bounces, posts, all these can affect the outcome of a game, or a series. But if the problems that this team has now (no coherent system, lack of line chemistry, weird defensive pairings, static power play) aren't new criticisms of Therrien or his style of coaching.

The same things were said about him in Montreal. The same things were mentioned his first few seasons here. Some people might jump on the "I Hate MT" bandwagon because the team is losing, but there was, were, and have been concerns about Therrien's coaching here since the day he was hired. This is not a new thing.

I can't make that any clearer to some people, though.

 

[cassius]

Ok guys, I finally registered FireTherrien.com

Any ideas on what to do with it?

 

[DockEllisExperience]

Ok guys, I finally registered FireTherrien.com

Any ideas on what to do with it?

Get the players to start signing a petition on it, he can't scratch all of them for no reason.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Ok guys, I finally registered FireTherrien.com

Any ideas on what to do with it?

you're a effing liar!! i was excited, lol

 

[HandshakeLine]

Ok guys, I finally registered FireTherrien.com

Any ideas on what to do with it?

It needs a MIDI version of Stevie Wonder's "Summer Soft" and fer sure.

Maybe a random line generator?

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Therrien-isms to describe his deficiencies as a coach. Plurals may not be used.

"I truly think he try to be worse coach in league, I really belieb dat"

 

[cassius]

I think the random Michel Therrien quote generator could be a good idea.

"Kovachoo"

 

[cassius]

I was going to make the site kind of a joke, but somehow I actually decided to form some rational arguments.

Check it out...
http://firetherrien.com

 

[td_ice]

"I'm not impress"

 

[Pens1566]

"Is too soff"

 

[Darth Vitale]

Some sad news... not to be cold-blooded but we can scratch Pat Burns off our list for now...

Seems he's had a re-lapse of lung cancer.

Get better, Pat!

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I missed the Carolina game but it's disheartening to hear Therrien already gave up on Cooke - Malkin - Crosby. That is just inexcusable given the current scenario and where we came from just a week or so ago. This guy clearly buys into the "there are no permanent lines, everybody must play with everybody" theory and continually harps on it by jumbling the lines even when he finds a few that start to build some momentum and confidence. Asshattery at its finest.

As for the trap, not sure how you give up 50 shots but I'm more concerned how we give up only 2 goals and lose anyway. Our PP as noted, just sucks. Constantly out of sync and very predictable. Even when we won a few. Sadly Therrien will go nowhere unless the team takes another nose-dive.

No line with Crosby and Malkin on it, where Geno is playing wing, is a permanent line. I agree with Therrien on that point.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I really don't understand how this offense has just disintegrated this year. Some hiccups happen, and not every year is always going to be an upward progression. I get that.

I don't get how we can go from one of the top-ranked teams to the 12th in goals for in the course of a single off-season. Sure we lost Malone, but that's only 27 goals, on the year. We lost Gonchar, so that'll affect the PP, but the fact of the matter is, our offensive production is nosediving and that's on a team with two of the top NHL scoring leaders on it, and is continuing to plummet as the season goes on, not improve.

I could understand a drop of 4 or 5 places this season, but when every other team in our division seems to have improved their offensive output without Malkin or Crosby, it really makes you wonder what's going on.

And honestly, I'm not sure it's even that the roster is all that much worse than last year-- it's just that last year's power play was so much better than this year's. I think it hid a lot of holes that we're realizing exist now that it's ****ing awful.

I don't know, 2 top six forwards and a No. 1 defenseman is a lot to lose. I realize that guy in Motown wasn't here long but he made a huge impact.

We are forced to use our two best offensive weapons together to generate offense. That hurts our overall offense. Losing Gonchar obviously hurts our overall offense. Not being able to count on Satan for consistent numbers as a top six hurts the offense. Injuries everywhere on the team have hurt everywhere, including the offense. The power play drying up has hurt the offense. A lack of frequent shooters has hurt the offense. Inconsistent offensive development from Letang and Goligoski has not helped the offense as much as we had hoped. Too many non-top-six forwards playing top six minutes has hurt the offense. Not much line chemistry, as opposed to the playoffs last spring, has hurt the offense.

Overall, I think it can be explained. But I can't help but think that the money invested ($3.5 million), this season erroneously on Satan, may hold the key next season. We just need to get more bang for our buck there. A lot of other things may just fall into place when we don't have to consistently shuffle the lines. And Therrien didn't once we had great line chemistry throughout last spring.

It needs to come together again like that, but I doubt it'll happen before next season unfortunately.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Actually, if you really want to look at it, Miro Satan is out pacing Ryan Malone on the year. Yeah, I know, it's not a great metric or anything, but it's worth noting that Malone production has been made up by the Devil himself, and that, should Satan stay on pace, he'd end up around where Malone was last year, while playing on the third line. I'm not a Satan fan, but I do think Malone is and was highly over-rated here, especially with regards to his fighting ability.

I don't think losing Malone is the reason we're dropping, and by the same token, Hossa didn't contribute significantly to this team's offense, especially since he spent most of the time prior to the post-season recovering from that knee-on-knee hit in Boston.

So, no offense, Jags, but I'm not really buying into that as the primary cause of our offensive woes.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Actually, if you really want to look at it, Miro Satan is out pacing Ryan Malone on the year. Yeah, I know, it's not a great metric or anything, but it's worth noting that Malone production has been made up by the Devil himself, and that, should Satan stay on pace, he'd end up around where Malone was last year, while playing on the third line. I'm not a Satan fan, but I do think Malone is and was highly over-rated here, especially with regards to his fighting ability.

I don't think losing Malone is the reason we're dropping, and by the same token, Hossa didn't contribute significantly to this team's offense, especially since he spent most of the time prior to the post-season recovering from that knee-on-knee hit in Boston.

So, no offense, Jags, but I'm not really buying into that as the primary cause of our offensive woes.

Well, Malone consistently planted his derriere in front of the net. We haven't had that since, and coupled with Gonchar being out, is the biggest reason why the PP has suffered. Yet people want Mike Yeo's head on a platter. Take away Lidstrom and Holmstrom from the vaunted Detroit power play, and yeah...same results.

Malone was/is a great complementary forward for star players. What Matt Cooke is doing now for us, but with more talent and consistency. I agree he's overrated as a fighter but his presence gave Malkin some space, no doubt.

Satan's production is "quiet". No big goals. A lot of tap ins. A lot of secondary assists. Production is production, to some degree, but when you look at last year's lineup compared to this year's, the roles were so much better defined last season. This year, we have had to move all kinds of bodies around to find the right fits.

It doesn't explain all of the demise of the offense, but it's a chunk. I don't dispute that the coaching staff needs to be blamed to some degree, but they even had to go to a more passive forecheck to help out with our defensive and goaltending inconsistencies. And that as well will hurt the offense in the long run.

There is a lot to this offensive decline, no question.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I still don't know, Jags. Ryan Malone had 11 power play goals last year. Satan has 6 already this year. Projected over the last half of the season, that's really not far from Malone's pace at all, and could even surpass it, if Satan got hot.

I don't think Satan is anywhere near the complete player that Malone was, but as far as pure production goes, Satan looks like a lateral move in a lot of ways, I think. So, while I think you're right in saying that the current offensive woes are very complex and not easily pinned on one cause, something odd is going on there.

 

[Jacob]

Malone is a guy that makes his linemates better, and creates time and space, and probably doesn't always show up on the scoresheet for a goal that wouldn't have happened without his work.. Whether it's creating havoc in front of the net, a hit in the corner, etc.