Post-Game Talk: The Deadline is Over - Go(c)!

[KeepitinPitt]

How much more successful in 8 offseasons was Ray Shero in signing guys with no previous ties to the Pens than Craig Patrick was in his 1 post lockout offseason?

In 8 offseasons, Shero has given us Martin, Michalek, Sykora, Eaton . . . am I forgetting any impact free agent signings?

In 1 offseason, Patrick got Palffy and Gonchar.

I'm just saying . . . wouldn't impact players signing here actually be a prerequisite to be considered a destination franchise?

I'm not the one claiming Shero made the team a hot spot for free agents, so I don't know why you're singling me out here. I don't think you can argue that Pittsburgh is a much more desirable location to play these days however, and I'm giving Mario and Burkle credit for that. Otherwise I pretty much agree with what you are saying. Shero has had opportunities to bring guys in and hasn't delivered like we all hoped he would.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Even if DP turns out to be all of what we hoped, we're looking at a minimum of five or six years until he's likely close to his optimal level of play. By then Sid and Geno will be old enough to collect social security!!! We don't have time for this!

We need to try and help these guys yesterday, not five or six years from now.

I laugh at comments like this. I just watched Teemu Selanne dominate at the Olympics at age 43. Jaromir Jagr is a first liner at age 42.

We have two generational talents, they're going to stick around for a while. They're signed for a long time.

There is literally NO need for this ZOMG time is running out panic attack.

 

[alcanalz]

Now, I don't think we're a lottery team masquerading as a Cup contender, but I genuinely don't think we can make it through the East with the holes up and down our lineup and with Bylsma behind the bench. That's to say nothing of the wood chipper that awaits in the Finals, should we somehow make it there.

But fair enough. Good discussion. It's always nice when a discussion around here doesn't devolve into "ur Pejorative Slured, ignored" or something to that effect. I think too many people lose sight of the fact that we're just shooting the **** on a message board sometimes.

Definitely agreed. I'm sure one of us will be supremely proved wrong this offseason . Although if it's a finals loss, I wonder which of us is more wrong? Perhaps it depends on the manner of the loss?

 

[Shockmaster]

I laugh at comments like this. I just watched Teemu Selanne dominate at the Olympics at age 43. Jaromir Jagr is a first liner at age 42.

We have two generational talents, they're going to stick around for a while. They're signed for a long time.

There is literally NO need for this ZOMG time is running out panic attack.

That doesn't mean you waste time hoping for some future that may not even come. The Penguins have the two best players in the world and they've underachieved for the last four playoffs. They're overdue for another Cup.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

See, I believe we need to STOP making decisions based on Dan Bylsma, and actually make them based on talent and upside.

Bylsma's just a factor. One that can't be ignored, though. As long as he plays Orpik, Scuderi, and Engelland over guys like Despres and Bortuzzo--or Kobasew, Glass, Adams, etc over guys like Megna, it's a very legit topic of discussion.

I'd like the team to allow their prospects to transition to the NHL game properly as well, and make personnel choices based on who is the most effective player, but as long as Bylsma is around that's kind of fantasy land stuff.

 

[IcedCapp]

Say we land Kesler at the draft and Sid and Bennett have good chemistry together. Don't wanna get ahead of ourselves, but this would look sweet next year:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($3.000m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Marcel Goc ($1.000m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Zach Sill ($0.575m) / Joe Vitale ($0.575m) / Jayson Megna ($0.700m)
Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Rob Scuderi ($3.375m) / Kris Letang ($7.250m)
Olli Maatta ($0.894m) / Matt Niskanen ($4.300m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.600m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,869,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $230,833

A lot of issues. I'll stick with: Goc won't sign for 1m and the cap won't be that high

 

[Lustaf]

Say we land Kesler at the draft and Sid and Bennett have good chemistry together. Don't wanna get ahead of ourselves, but this would look sweet next year:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($3.000m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Marcel Goc ($1.000m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Zach Sill ($0.575m) / Joe Vitale ($0.575m) / Jayson Megna ($0.700m)
Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Rob Scuderi ($3.375m) / Kris Letang ($7.250m)
Olli Maatta ($0.894m) / Matt Niskanen ($4.300m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.600m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,869,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $230,833

Why would Goc take a pay-cut of almost a million dollars?

The cap won't be $71 million either, by all accounts it's going to be lower.

 

[Michael8771*]

I laugh at comments like this. I just watched Teemu Selanne dominate at the Olympics at age 43. Jaromir Jagr is a first liner at age 42.

We have two generational talents, they're going to stick around for a while. They're signed for a long time.

There is literally NO need for this ZOMG time is running out panic attack.

Just because Sid and Geno can still play at 32-33 doesn't mean their play won't drop off. Look at guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, look where they were and where they are now. Riddled with injury and not the same players they use to be. And if you think Sid and Geno play at this level six years from now considering all of what they've gone through, you're kidding yourself!

And for the record Selanne and Jagr aren't near the players they were in their 20's. That's a terrible analogy and doesn't help your cause one bit. The exception would be MSL at 38 and he's 5'2.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

That doesn't mean you waste time hoping for some future that may not even come. The Penguins have the two best players in the world and they've underachieved for the last four playoffs. They're overdue for another Cup.

And the quickest way to get there is to develop your own talent surrounding them. The quick fix, band-aid solution does not work.

If we have to surrender a first rounder every year, we're clearly not doing something properly.

Let's regroup, let's start drafting for EVERY position and let's start developing from within.

Look at how many young players have looked good in spurts this season: Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo, Gibbons, Megna, Bennett.

Imagine how great we'd already be with a coach who had a clue?

We have players, we need to start using the right ones, and we need to start getting rid of those that are hindering our efforts to get back to Cup status.

THAT's what we need.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Just because Sid and Geno can still play at 32-33 doesn't mean their play won't drop off. Look at guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, look where they were and where they are now. Riddled with injury and not the same players they use to be. And if you think Sid and Geno play at this level six years from now considering all of what they've gone through, you're kidding yourself!

And for the record Selanne and Jagr aren't near the players they were in their 20's. That's a terrible analogy and doesn't help your cause one bit. The exception would be MSL at 38 and he's 5'2.

Jagr and St. Louis are less in decline than, oh, say Kesler.

 

[Sutter16]

A lot of issues. I'll stick with: Goc won't sign for 1m and the cap won't be that high

The cap is supposed to be around 70/71 M. I agree Goc will be more than 1M

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Say we land Kesler at the draft and Sid and Bennett have good chemistry together. Don't wanna get ahead of ourselves, but this would look sweet next year:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($3.000m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Marcel Goc ($1.000m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Zach Sill ($0.575m) / Joe Vitale ($0.575m) / Jayson Megna ($0.700m)
Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Rob Scuderi ($3.375m) / Kris Letang ($7.250m)
Olli Maatta ($0.894m) / Matt Niskanen ($4.300m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.600m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,869,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $230,833

So Megna and Goc take pay cuts, not going to happen. Engelland and Vitale will probably get more, Kulemin as well. Who knows with Niskanen. The cap is being reported as lower than 71M.

 

[Michael8771*]

Jagr and St. Louis are less in decline than, oh, say Kesler.

MSL maybe, not Jagr. And Kesler isn't just an offensive guy, he can do other things well. Look at Jagr's best year, 149 points, how close is he to that now? Sorry, that's a terrible argument.

Your problem is that you're worried about catering to a guy like DP as opposed to Sid and Geno. And that's just awful reasoning. I think Sid and Geno should be priority 1 and 1a.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Like I said, we'll see what becomes of the guy. But if he was the prospect that secured the trade and it didn't go down because RS wanted to hang on to him, well let's see how good Dumoulin's NHL career is. Cause I don't think it will be much.

I seriously doubt Dumoulin was the reason the trade didn't go down.

I'd also love to see your breakdown of Dumo's game and tell us specifically why he won't have an NHL career.

I'm sure it will be powerful, eye opening stuff.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I think what Kirk means is have you seen Shero try to dramatically improve the team--not add rentals for a playoff push, but actually improve the team at that moment and moving forward. The Neal/Niskanen trade is it. He's gone full nostalgia for the worse with bringing Eaton back, re-signing Scuderi, and keeping Adams around.

He still hasn't fixed Sid's winger situation. It's been 8 years. Don't you think he should have at least solved that one, glaring problem? Iginla wasn't the answer, he was a rental for a huge push for the Cup. Hossa would have been awesome, but it fell through, and he hasn't done anything for 5 years. And if he is fine with Dupuis there, that's even more ridiculous than not busting his ass to surround his bread and butter with two legit wingers. That's probably my biggest gripe with Shero. No team is perfect, everyone has holes, it's just that we have several GLARING problems and he is all about the band-aid fixes that don't solve a damn thing.

You better make that 9 years.

Remember at the beginning of the season, when Shero didn't do **** to fix the top 6, the ISWT crew kept saying "just wait till the deadline...."

Well we waited. Top 6 still ****.

 

[KeepitinPitt]

He does? The only guy he went after this past offseason (Scuderi) snubbed Los Angeles to play here. The only free agents Pittsburgh has a "problem attracting" in the last five years are the ones whose wives will only live in St Paul.




No, it's not. Prior to their cellar-dwelling and prior to Baldwin's money problems, they challenged for a division title every year.

Attracted absolutely nothing in free agency. Nothing. No interest at all among UFA players for going to Pitt.

Between 95 and 2004 (in six of those years, the Penguins were good to very good), there were three ways to acquire quality players.

1) Draft
2) Trade
3) You are the Red Wings, Rangers, Flyers or Avalanche and can sign them in free agency. Nobody else should bother with this.

Regarding #3, we're them now. This can't be separated from Shero. It just can't.

Two years in a row now, we've got the top target at the trade deadline leveraging his NT to try and force the GM to take a garbage offer from Pittsburgh. This isn't randomness at work.

You have a point, we've never really brought in huge stars during free agency, but then again, Pittsburgh has always been a small market. Back then teams like the Rangers, Flyers, Leafs, Detroit, etc could outbid anything the Pens could possibly offer * as you mentioned. Either way, I don't think Shero himself has had that big of an impact when it comes to changing the image of the franchise. We're certainly not the Detroit Red Wings or New York Rangers of the 90's when it comes to bringing in new players. I wish we were, but that's just not the case.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I can sum this deadline up in four words: glad I missed it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

You better make that 9 years.

Remember at the beginning of the season, when Shero didn't do **** to fix the top 6, the ISWT crew kept saying "just wait till the deadline...."

Well we waited. Top 6 still ****.

I get that. And I've been beating this like a drum all year as well. But see, this is why what happened today is good. What we need is to be able to make a HOCKEY trade. How do teams make hockey trades? When they have assets. The more we keep now, the more we'll have, hopefully develop and eventually be able to make more hockey trades.

To continuously overpay for talent will haunt teams, eventually. We have to stop doing that. I'm glad we didn't today. Goc and Stempniak weren't necessarily cheap, but it was about as much as we SHOULD have spent today...

...unless Shero was willing to deal some of the drek on his roster that needs to go, which he so far hasn't really done.

 

[Michael8771*]

I can sum this deadline up in four words: glad I missed it.

You didn't miss much.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

For a destination franchise, the Pens sure have a problem attracting free agents. Just saying . . .

I think it's more that the Pens have a GM who doesn't go after free agents.

 

[IcedCapp]

The cap is supposed to be around 70/71 M. I agree Goc will be more than 1M

68m now, according to the latest numbers. Blame the loonie

 

[Fire Shero*]

Garth Snow is a worse GM than Shero.

Overall a disappointing deadline. Maybe Shero will get Crosby a winger in his 9th year as GM.

Let's see if Bylsma can stomach benching 2 scrubs in order to play Stempniak and Goc.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I can sum this deadline up in four words: glad I missed it.

Damnit!

 

[Darth Vitale]

You didn't miss much.

Sure didn't. At least Shero improved our bottom 6 some, but not as much as people are suggesting IMO. Goc's shiny toy factor will wear off quick IMO. And he'll fit right into our advanced injury program.

 

[Syrinx]

I can sum this deadline up in four words: glad I missed it.

My summary is a little longer: We kept all of our young defensive studs.