Post-Game Talk: The Deadline is Over - Go(c)!

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alcanalz

whys and wherefores
Nov 3, 2009
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Billybudd insisted to be that the Pens are a destination franchise. Fine. Ray Shero has been here for 8 summers. Name the top guys he's signed who had no ties to the organization?

Martin, Michalek, Sykora, Eaton. You want to add Cooke and Ruutu? Who am I missing? Oops, Satan and Fedotenko. Happy? Does that scream destination franchise to you?

****, in 1 offseason, Craig Patrick got Palffy and Gonchar, and he didn't pay over market value.

And, don't give me Shero signed Recchi and Scuderi. One, those guys had ties to the team. Two, Patrick signed Recchi and LeClair.

I'm sorry, Philly, which completely ****** over Richards and Carter, had an easier time the following summer signing guys that Shero has had in 8 summers.

That's not just about Suter and Parise. That's about 8 years and what I see as an arrogant assumption that people should feel lucky to sign in Pittsburgh for what Shero offers and don't need to be 'sold' on signing.

In the last few years, the only year we've ever really had cap room was last offseason, and the two big-name FAs were Suter and Parise, whose minds were made up.

I guess when Hossa was FA too, I believe we could have made it work, but he hated Therrien and wanted a cup.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
Being generous is fine. One could say KCS will be no worse in a tough playoff series than KCD and that JMN is an upgrade, if only by default, on IMN. One could say our bottom six is better. Same for the D. Then again, will Vokoun be back, because he probably was the only one to save the Pens from Fleury and Bylsma leading them to one and done last year? :laugh:

Yeah I think we all know that Fleury is the wild card here. My only point was that considering how Bylsma uses players, I think this roster has nearly as good a chance as last years.
 

Ziggyjoe21

Registered User
Nov 12, 2003
9,028
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Pitt
As far as today's moves, they're a bit underwhelming considering all the hype and who Shero acquired past couple of years. Still, IMO these 2 are better than giving the moon for Kesler.

There's still a hole on Sid's RW as far as I'm concerned.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
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This team isn't Philadelphia. We've been at the top of the conference or within a couple points of it every year for half of a decade now. I understand, that's the regular season, and we only have one cup to show, but there's no dramatically improving this team. There's making adjustments, and tweaking it. Unless you just blow it up and hope for something to even resemble a good team by trading Malkin, Letang, whoever, this team is already very good... it just needs to either play to its' potential (assuredly without DB if they don't go deep this year) or needs adjustments.

Yeah, Kesler would have been great, and truthfully that would have been one of the most major adjustments you could have done. But this isn't a team where you're completely blowing it up, because really the most you can hope for is for you to be as good as you were.

Can we stop with the Holmgren/Philly comparison? That's a strawman argument. Wanting a GM to make changes when changes need to be made in order to get us back to a level of legit contention doesn't mean people are clamoring for Holmgren. That's silly. Nobody is asking for a blow up of the team, but changes need to be made, and Shero needs to sack up and make real changes. No more of the "man, I hope that's good enough" stuff.

You can want a team to be improved dramatically without insinuating that it needs to be turned into an all-star team. Yes, I think we need another impact, higher tier, big name player in order to round out the top six. Does that mean I want Shero to dismantle the roster and make earth shattering changes? No. Sid needs a RW, regardless of the fact that he's Sidney Crosby and is the best player on Earth. We've seen what teams have learned to do in the playoffs. They get him to stop playing Crosby hockey with cheap shots or physical play, get under his skin and derail his entire game. That, or they will totally shadow Crosby and dare his linemates to beat them. Kunitz is a great player, but he's entirely complimentary. If Sid ain't clickin', Kunitz is a glorified Matt Cooke. Dupuis? He's been over-achieving for years, he's a third liner, plain and simple. A big change needs to be made as far as finally fixing the Sid's winger problem, and it's about more than the "we need wingers" rhetoric. It's not about scoring 15 goals a game and seeing Sid win the Art Ross by 60 points. It's about giving the guy some legitimate help since teams have learned the key to beating us is simply get Sid and Geno off their games, and daring their linemates to beat them once our stars aren't clicking. If that means moving Letang, so be it. Letang's absence isn't going to lose us anything come playoff time. At worst, it's going to leave a smudge on the fanciness and flair of this team's production during the regular season. Not having a legit, top line winger for Sid will continue to crush us.

As well as the RW issue, we need to get bigger and tougher to play against. We're a total joke physically come playoff time, and our bottom six might as well ignore the corners and boards like the plague. We have no Rupps, Ashams, Talbots, Cookes, etc. That's a huge issue for us. We used to effectively punish teams with our forecheck, and wear them down for Sid and Geno to take advantage of. We are physically (pun intended) incapable of doing that anymore, and it's devastating to us. It's been years since we've had a real, playoff bottom six.

Finally, Shero needs to be a business man and get rid of this Familyâ„¢ ********. It's a detriment to the team. It's a really nice sentiment, but that's not how you run a successful NHL team. It hinders your ability to grow, evolve, adjust, and continue to change/improve for the better. Who was it that refused to stay in the team's hotel on road trips because he didn't want to develop a personal bond with the players? Was it Bowman? I'm not saying go to that length, but Shero really has to start running this team in a manner that necessitates winning Cups, and not having ice cream pool parties at Bylsma's after he's extended two more years following his fourth playoff debacle in a row.
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
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For a destination franchise, the Pens sure have a problem attracting free agents. Just saying . . .

He does? The only guy he went after this past offseason (Scuderi) snubbed Los Angeles to play here. The only free agents Pittsburgh has a "problem attracting" in the last five years are the ones whose wives will only live in St Paul.


I think you're giving Shero way too much credit here. The reason Pittsburgh wasn't a destination franchise before Shero is because they were too busy trying to climb their way out of debt while doing their best to put together a competitive team on a budget. Shero was handed the reigns just as the team was finally getting over that hump (thanks in large part to Sid, Geno and a new arena). I give Mario and Burkle all the credit in the world, but Shero, not so much. Not saying he hasn't contributed, because I do agree that he is an easy guy for players to deal with, but I think there are plenty of other GMs who could have done the same thing.

No, it's not. Prior to their cellar-dwelling and prior to Baldwin's money problems, they challenged for a division title every year.

Attracted absolutely nothing in free agency. Nothing. No interest at all among UFA players for going to Pitt.

Between 95 and 2004 (in six of those years, the Penguins were good to very good), there were three ways to acquire quality players.

1) Draft
2) Trade
3) You are the Red Wings, Rangers, Flyers or Avalanche and can sign them in free agency. Nobody else should bother with this.

Regarding #3, we're them now. This can't be separated from Shero. It just can't.

Two years in a row now, we've got the top target at the trade deadline leveraging his NT to try and force the GM to take a garbage offer from Pittsburgh. This isn't randomness at work.
 

66-30-33

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
63,311
16,287
Victoria, BC
I'm going to throw something out there, you guys tell me if it sticks

Ryan Kesler wants to come east

Kesler likes Bylsma. Shero. And the idea of playing with Sid.

He has a NTC. He wanted to come to Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh.

Now read this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/29471/ryan-kesler-staying-put-has-domino-effect

Call me crazy, but this is a repeat of last year.

Anaheim had a better offer. Vancouver wanted to take it, Kesler wouldn't waive.

Pitt knew this and wouldn't increase their offer.

Since Kesler isn't a UFA, Gillis decided to hold on until summer to try again.

Whatcha think?

I think Gillis wanted too much from Ducks, Pens did not offer enough so no deal was made. Kesler will have to wait a few years if he's going to pick 1 team to choose from before he bolts because if he picks 1 team, it screws over the team and they rather hang onto him because they are a **** org. Atleast Shero dealt Michalek back to Phoenix where he wanted to go because he did not like it in Pittsburgh.
 

alcanalz

whys and wherefores
Nov 3, 2009
6,900
0
Can we stop with the Holmgren/Philly comparison? That's a strawman argument. Wanting a GM to make changes when changes need to be made in order to get us back to a level of legit contention doesn't mean people are clamoring for Holmgren. That's silly. Nobody is asking for a blow up of the team, but changes need to be made, and Shero needs to sack up and make real changes. No more of the "man, I hope that's good enough" stuff.

You can want a team to be improved dramatically without insinuating that it needs to be turned into an all-star team. Yes, I think we need another impact, higher tier, big name player in order to round out the top six. Does that mean I want Shero to dismantle the roster and make earth shattering changes? No. Sid needs a RW, regardless of the fact that he's Sidney Crosby and is the best player on Earth. We've seen what teams have learned to do in the playoffs. They get him to stop playing Crosby hockey with cheap shots or physical play, get under his skin and derail his entire game. That, or they will totally shadow Crosby and dare his linemates to beat them. Kunitz is a great player, but he's entirely complimentary. If Sid ain't clickin', Kunitz is a glorified Matt Cooke. Dupuis? He's been over-achieving for years, he's a third liner, plain and simple. A big change needs to be made as far as finally fixing the Sid's winger problem, and it's about more than the "we need wingers" rhetoric. It's not about scoring 15 goals a game and seeing Sid win the Art Ross by 60 points. It's about giving the guy some legitimate help since teams have learned the key to beating us is simply get Sid and Geno off their games, and daring their linemates to beat them once our stars aren't clicking. If that means moving Letang, so be it. Letang's absence isn't going to lose us anything come playoff time. At worst, it's going to leave a smudge on the fanciness and flair of this team's production during the regular season. Not having a legit, top line winger for Sid will continue to crush us.

As well as the RW issue, we need to get bigger and tougher to play against. We're a total joke physically come playoff time, and our bottom six might as well ignore the corners and boards like the plague. We have no Rupps, Ashams, Talbots, Cookes, etc. That's a huge issue for us. We used to effectively punish teams with our forecheck, and wear them down for Sid and Geno to take advantage of. We are physically (pun intended) incapable of doing that anymore, and it's devastating to us. It's been years since we've had a real, playoff bottom six.

Finally, Shero needs to be a business man and get rid of this Familyâ„¢ ********. It's a detriment to the team. It's a really nice sentiment, but that's not how you run a successful NHL team. It hinders your ability to grow, evolve, adjust, and continue to change/improve for the better. Who was it that refused to stay in the team's hotel on road trips because he didn't want to develop a personal bond with the players? Was it Bowman? I'm not saying go to that length, but Shero really has to start running this team in a manner that necessitates winning Cups, and not having ice cream pool parties at Bylsma's after he's extended two more years following his fourth playoff debacle in a row.

I was using Philly more in the terms of dismantling the team and then hoping to be as good as they were. Truthfully, the difference in our arguments can be reduced to the fact that you don't believe we're a legit contender; I do.

Simple as that.

I'm unsure whether we need to deal Letang yet, as I believe the level he reached a couple of seasons ago and his talent is tough to pass up, but that's almost moot. I believe our team with holes, is at least as good as any of the rest of the Eastern teams who have holes too, which is all of them.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,593
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Montreal, QC
We have no idea what direction the Canucks will head in by the time the draft rolls around.

We need to move on. There will be other players available to acquire. We need to stop this 'blinders on' focus on acquiring one guy.

I, for one, am going to get a little excited about the draft now. I watched the Top Prospects Game this year HOPING we'd keep our first rounder because of all the wingers available this year. Well, we still might deal that pick but I hope we don't.

Nick Ritchie plays for the Peterborough Petes. Probably out of our reach in Round 1, but maybe with a sweetened offer we might be able to land him. You just never know. When you have a first rounder, there's a chance to move up. Without one, there's no chance.

All this to say, somebody like Ritchie is what this franchise needs way more than a 30-year-old (an OLD 30 at that) two-way center who may or may not enjoy playing wing (or losing all of the spotlight to Crosby and Malkin, no matter how well he plays).

Give me Ritchie, Pouliot, Despres and today will eventually look like a GREAT day for the Pittsburgh Penguins.
 

Ogelthorpe

Who do you play for?
Jul 21, 2010
2,819
220
I think Shero either:
A) Feels that the longer the Kesler disgruntlement continues, the more willing the Canucks will be to unload him on the cheap......and that Pittsburgh is THE destination he wants be (think Iggy last year)
or
B) He would rather spend the assets it would take to land Kesler, on a pure winger like Eberle, and hope maybe Goc can be our 3C for a couple years moving forward.
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
34,951
7,216
Boston
All that Shero's unwillingness to deal Pouliot does is reinforce the perception that he is risk averse.

I'm not saying THAT was the right move or not, but I find it curious that he never makes a tough call like this.

No, it confirms that Shero has blinders on when it comes to DP. The kind of blinders that made him draft DP over Trouba and Forsberg.

It's cool though cause the Pens need a PPQB in 2016!
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
2,249
Billybudd insisted to be that the Pens are a destination franchise. Fine. Ray Shero has been here for 8 summers. Name the top guys he's signed who had no ties to the organization?

Martin, Michalek, Sykora, Eaton. You want to add Cooke and Ruutu? Who am I missing? Oops, Satan and Fedotenko. Happy? Does that scream destination franchise to you?

****, in 1 offseason, Craig Patrick got Palffy and Gonchar, and he didn't pay over market value.

And, don't give me Shero signed Recchi and Scuderi. One, those guys had ties to the team. Two, Patrick signed Recchi and LeClair.

I'm sorry, Philly, which completely ****** over Richards and Carter, had an easier time the following summer signing guys that Shero has had in 8 summers.

That's not just about Suter and Parise. That's about 8 years and what I see as an arrogant assumption that people should feel lucky to sign in Pittsburgh for what Shero offers and don't need to be 'sold' on signing.

Shero can't attract guys he doesn't target. The only guys he targeted in the last five that he didn't get are Suter and Parise. That's it. Oh, I guess Jagr, who he offered Craig Adams money to because he didn't actually want the guy.

You can not like his "big" signings (Martin, Scuderi, Michalek). But you can't pretend he doesn't end up with pretty much everybody he pitches in the last five years, providing their wives aren't from Minnesota.

And, again, this is the second year in a row the #1 target at the deadline leveraged his NT clause to try and force a trade to Pittsburgh for scraps.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,593
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Montreal, QC
I REALLY don't mind that he has blinders on for Pouliot. We will need him. With Letang's situation, I don't see how you could justify trading Pouliot at this time.
 

Michael8771*

Guest
I think Shero either:
[A) Feels that the longer the Kesler disgruntlement continues, the more willing the Canucks will be to unload him on the cheap......and that Pittsburgh is THE destination he wants be (think Iggy last year)
or
B) He would rather spend the assets it would take to land Kesler, on a pure winger like Eberle, and hope maybe Goc can be our 3C for a couple years moving forward.
Pertaining to point A, That's all well and good next season, but it doesn't help fortify us now.
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
34,951
7,216
Boston
You do realize that Kesler can be acquired later, right?

Besides, I like to look at this season a a sacrificed season, another Fleury shot, getting Bylsma fired and hopefully Orpik ******** the bed prodigiously. They can go after Kesler again. Get things sorted now and in the summer, there could have been a step made towards a 3C and Sutter being traded for winger help.
This summer, after the Pens lost to the Bs again and when the cap goes up and the teams that can make realistic offers triples? Sweet!
 

66-30-33

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
63,311
16,287
Victoria, BC
We have no idea what direction the Canucks will head in by the time the draft rolls around.

We need to move on. There will be other players available to acquire. We need to stop this 'blinders on' focus on acquiring one guy.

I, for one, am going to get a little excited about the draft now. I watched the Top Prospects Game this year HOPING we'd keep our first rounder because of all the wingers available this year. Well, we still might deal that pick but I hope we don't.

Nick Ritchie plays for the Peterborough Petes. Probably out of our reach in Round 1, but maybe with a sweetened offer we might be able to land him. You just never know. When you have a first rounder, there's a chance to move up. Without one, there's no chance.

All this to say, somebody like Ritchie is what this franchise needs way more than a 30-year-old (an OLD 30 at that) two-way center who may or may not enjoy playing wing (or losing all of the spotlight to Crosby and Malkin, no matter how well he plays).

Give me Ritchie, Pouliot, Despres and today will eventually look like a GREAT day for the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Pens should target Stewart at the draft, perhaps Letang for ROR if we are keeping Pouliot and Nisky and deal Sutter back to Carolina or something.

Stewart-Crosby-ROR
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
BB-Goc-Stempniak
Sill-Vitale-Farnham
 

Shockmaster

Registered User
Sep 11, 2012
16,012
3,381
I think Shero either:
A) Feels that the longer the Kesler disgruntlement continues, the more willing the Canucks will be to unload him on the cheap......and that Pittsburgh is THE destination he wants be (think Iggy last year)
or
B) He would rather spend the assets it would take to land Kesler, on a pure winger like Eberle, and hope maybe Goc can be our 3C for a couple years moving forward.

I think that will be the case if the Canucks fire Gillis at the end of the season. I doubt the next GM would want to deal with a disgruntled Kesler during a rebuild process.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
I was using Philly more in the terms of dismantling the team and then hoping to be as good as they were. Truthfully, the difference in our arguments can be reduced to the fact that you don't believe we're a legit contender; I do.

Simple as that.

I'm unsure whether we need to deal Letang yet, as I believe the level he reached a couple of seasons ago and his talent is tough to pass up, but that's almost moot. I believe our team with holes, is at least as good as any of the rest of the Eastern teams who have holes too, which is all of them.

Now, I don't think we're a lottery team masquerading as a Cup contender, but I genuinely don't think we can make it through the East with the holes up and down our lineup and with Bylsma behind the bench. That's to say nothing of the wood chipper that awaits in the Finals, should we somehow make it there.

But fair enough. :laugh: Good discussion. It's always nice when a discussion around here doesn't devolve into "ur Pejorative Slured, ignored" or something to that effect. I think too many people lose sight of the fact that we're just shooting the **** on a message board sometimes.
 

Michael8771*

Guest
I REALLY don't mind that he has blinders on for Pouliot. We will need him. With Letang's situation, I don't see how you could justify trading Pouliot at this time.
I can, if it helps our team win now while our stars are in their primes, it makes a lot of sense to trade him. It's not as if we don't have depth on the blue line and in particular offensively gifted defensemen.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,593
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Montreal, QC
I can, if it helps our team win now while our stars are in their primes, it makes a lot of sense to trade him. It's not as if we don't have depth on the blue line and in particular offensively gifted defensemen.

With a little patience, Pouliot will be an asset to our stars while still in their prime, just as Olli Maatta is.

The KEY is making room for our best players to play...<<cough get rid of Orpik cough>>
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
I REALLY don't mind that he has blinders on for Pouliot. We will need him. With Letang's situation, I don't see how you could justify trading Pouliot at this time.

Because if he lands us a significant player like Kesler, who excels at everything and can do it all, it's worth it.

Even if Letang never plays again, Pouliot doesn't help us now. Next year. Or probably the year after that. Even if he develops as projected, do you believe Bylsma will allow him to play through the inevitable growing pains to (ideally) develop into our version of Dan Boyle? I don't. Despres is a horse, and can play in all situations. Bylsma doesn't trust him as far as he can throw him.
 

Michael8771*

Guest
With a little patience, Pouliot will be an asset to our stars while still in their prime, just as Olli Maatta is.

The KEY is making room for our best players to play...<<cough get rid of Orpik cough>>
Even if DP turns out to be all of what we hoped, we're looking at a minimum of five or six years until he's likely close to his optimal level of play. By then Sid and Geno will be old enough to collect social security!!! We don't have time for this!

We need to try and help these guys yesterday, not five or six years from now.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,593
1,271
Montreal, QC
Because if he lands us a significant player like Kesler, who excels at everything and can do it all, it's worth it.

Even if Letang never plays again, Pouliot doesn't help us now. Next year. Or probably the year after that. Even if he develops as projected, do you believe Bylsma will allow him to play through the inevitable growing pains to (ideally) develop into our version of Dan Boyle? I don't. Despres is a horse, and can play in all situations. Bylsma doesn't trust him as far as he can throw him.

See, I believe we need to STOP making decisions based on Dan Bylsma, and actually make them based on talent and upside.
 

Lustaf

Registered User
Nov 26, 2008
5,123
1,149
Victoria, BC
Sounds plausible. Still don't like the idea of Shero playing hardball when he could have landed a selke caliber player for a relatively reasonable fee.

I'm more inclined to believe that Gillis or the ownership group in Vancouver, decided they weren't happy enough with what Anaheim was offering to send him there only to play against him for another 2 years.

I'd like to believe he only wanted to go to Pittsburgh, because that would hopefully leave us in the running for him again come draft day.
 

888 98 twins

Got you back not your wallet
Feb 12, 2008
6,138
305
Burgh
Say we land Kesler at the draft and Sid and Bennett have good chemistry together. Don't wanna get ahead of ourselves, but this would look sweet next year:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($3.000m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Marcel Goc ($1.000m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Zach Sill ($0.575m) / Joe Vitale ($0.575m) / Jayson Megna ($0.700m)
Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Rob Scuderi ($3.375m) / Kris Letang ($7.250m)
Olli Maatta ($0.894m) / Matt Niskanen ($4.300m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.600m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,869,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $230,833
 
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