Post-Game Talk: The Deadline is Over - Go(c)!

[billybudd]

Another fair critique.

And, to reiterate, risk averse does not mean unwilling to deal any assets. But, again, look at the assets he's dealt . . .

Gogo . . . in the no brainer trade of the century

1st . . . with C prospects for Iginla when he refused to go elsewhere

Morrow . . . who was seen as further down the totem pole than Samuelsson, not to mention Despres and Dumoulin

Aside from that, it's been other picks and lesser prospects

Since the Pens won the cup, have you seen Shero willingly deal a guy who makes you say 'wow, this is a bit of a risk'. Don't count Staal . . . he wanted out. Ever seen him deal a top prospect.

Again, it's not that he didn't do it this time. It's that he won't do it, because he's our very own David Poile.

The bolded can't really be tossed around like an accident when evaluating Shero. Pittsburgh's earned a reputation as a great place to play under his tenure. That didn't used to be the case.

Some of that has to do with ZOMG Sidz thar! But some of it does not. Pascal Dupuis, when talking about the idea of UFA referenced the Penguins' stick budget being triple some other teams as symbolic for why he didn't.

Zbynek Michalek wanted out (or else, the coaches wanted him out) and Shero immediately traded him to the only place he wanted to be, despite being under no obligation to do that. Contrast that with the way Gillis handled the Kesler situation. Or the Luongo situation. Or the Schneider situation.

Word gets around.

When upper management treats players with respect and gives them access to the best facilities, you make the 3 team shortlist of a guy like Kesler (which even the Rangers couldn't crack). You go into free agency targeting two guys and get both of them (unless their wives are dead set on Minnesota).

Shero's turned Pittsburgh into Philly and the Red Wings as a "destination" franchise. This can't be handwaved away as Iginla's whim, instead of something Shero and his bosses have meticulously constructed.

 

[SEALBound]

Sadly, I think we all know we are not a Goc and a Stempniak away from a Cup. We just aren't that team this year...but then again I said the same thing in 09 and look what happen.

Can someone recap what Shero said about today? I'm not going to go search for it...

In any case, I knew Kesler was a long shot. Rossi's reported offer...it was a low ball. I'd like to believe we all knew that if Gillis went through with it, it would one of the bigger fleecings in awhile, perhaps since Neal/Nisk-Gogo. Gillis didn't bite and quite honestly, I don't blame him. He could have done better.

All in all, I'm even about what occurred today. Hemsky's price tag was cheaper than I thought. REALLY wish it could have been him instead of Stempy but hey what can you do. Vanek went for peanuts...I really thought after Kelser fell through that Shero would swoop in and grab him. I think we could have matched the offer and still been just fine. Kunitz could have switched to RW or put with Malkin-Neal. Either way the "fit" ****...is garbage.

Gaborik could have been had too but I think LA was more interested in him. Oddly, Moulson dang near went for more or as much as Gabby or Vanek...I found that odd.

There were some names that I thought would have been traded. Cammy and Setoguchi I thought for sure would be on the move. Would have been nice to have nabbed either of them...

But the deadline is over, it is what it is, and it's a long shot this year. Ride Shero all you want but one thing everyone is overlooking is that the cap fell from what, $72mil to $64mil? There's your third line depth players up in smoke there. So I give him this off season with the cap going up, plenty of expiring contracts, and obvious glaring holes to fix it. I haven't written him off yet.

With our new guys, the only thing that makes me nervous is still 1RW. Stempniak isn't the guy that's gonna draw attention away from Sid and neither is Bennett. Right now, it's a battle between those two to see who comes out on top. Either way: Goc-Sutter-Stempniak/Bennett is a much better third line that what we had yesterday so I have to give Shero props for that.

I just think the lack of an impact 1RW will be the thing that hurts us the most. Too easy to redo what Boston did. Top pairing against Sid, focus on Sid and shutdown the line then put your best shutdown line against Malkin and hope for the best. Third and Fourth lines won't be enough to turn the tide.

I think we'll make it past the first round, second will be a test that I doubt we past but a few people could easily steal it for us. No way we make it past the ECF or the SCF. Not a chance. This also all depends on Fleury...yikes...and Byslma. My bet is we still see Adams on the roster and more shifts of Kunitz-Crosby-Glass than we would ever like to see.

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett/Stempniak
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
Goc-Sutter-Stempniak/Bennett
Glass-Vitale-Engelland

Orpik-Martin
Nisky-Maatta
Scuds-Bortuzzo

There's your playoffs line up once everyone is healthy.

 

[alcanalz]

I think what Kirk means is have you seen Shero try to dramatically improve the team--not add rentals for a playoff push, but actually improve the team at that moment and moving forward. The Neal/Niskanen trade is it. He's gone full nostalgia for the worse with bringing Eaton back, re-signing Scuderi, and keeping Adams around.

He still hasn't fixed Sid's winger situation. It's been 8 years. Don't you think he should have at least solved that one, glaring problem? Iginla wasn't the answer, he was a rental for a huge push for the Cup. Hossa would have been awesome, but it fell through, and he hasn't done anything for 5 years. And if he is fine with Dupuis there, that's even more ridiculous than not busting his ass to surround his bread and butter with two legit wingers. That's probably my biggest gripe with Shero. No team is perfect, everyone has holes, it's just that we have several GLARING problems and he is all about the band-aid fixes that don't solve a damn thing.

This team isn't Philadelphia. We've been at the top of the conference or within a couple points of it every year for half of a decade now. I understand, that's the regular season, and we only have one cup to show, but there's no dramatically improving this team. There's making adjustments, and tweaking it. Unless you just blow it up and hope for something to even resemble a good team by trading Malkin, Letang, whoever, this team is already very good... it just needs to either play to its' potential (assuredly without DB if they don't go deep this year) or needs adjustments.

Yeah, Kesler would have been great, and truthfully that would have been one of the most major adjustments you could have done. But this isn't a team where you're completely blowing it up, because really the most you can hope for is for you to be as good as you were.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The playoffs is all about needing things to go right. Yeah, we need things to go right. But so did Chicago last year, and every team every year, really. Boston was a Tim Thomas pad stack on MSL from losing to the team that barely beat our horribly depleted team when they won.

Last year the Bruins were 1 period from losing to Toronto, and had no business winning that game.

The Pens and Bruins will finish 1 and 2, and that means there's a good chance the Bruins won't even make it to us. Montreal plays them tough, and now they have Vanek. Toronto is the kind of team that can beat them, and so is Columbus. And that western conference is going to be a meat grinder, the team that limps out of that may not have much left.

DB doesn't have many decisions to be making this year. The first three lines are more or less set (or interchangeable enough). And TV might be back.

So yeah, I think we have a solid chance. Let's get Gladdams down to about 6 min TOI each, and then we'll go from there. We just picked up forwards who play 16-20 minutes a night. No need to run that 4th line out for 10 minutes a night.

 

[KIRK]

If we get Martin and Bennett back (and he plays to his potential), we have a good shot to come out of the East. Overall, I like the moves Shero made today.

I think you're being a little generous.

You're asking Stempniak and Jokinen to be on hot streaks and the KCS and JMN lines to function in their most ideal states.

You're asking Orpik and to a lesser extent Scuderi not to be cluster***** out there.

You're asking Fleury to turn back the playoff clock a half dozen years.

And, you're asking Bylsma to get a clue.

Anything can happen. But, we'd be the underdog in a series against Boston. I'd be nervous against Toronto, Montreal, New Jersey, New York, maybe even Detroit. I think we'd lose it if we saw Philly.

Not saying we can't find a way or that all the chips might not fall right like they did in 2009. I just think it's wide open and thus don't see our shot as being 2008 good or even 2009 or 2013 good.

I think we're more likely to be one and done than to reach the cup finals, but I hope you're right on this one.

 

[IcedCapp]

I'm going to throw something out there, you guys tell me if it sticks

Ryan Kesler wants to come east

Kesler likes Bylsma. Shero. And the idea of playing with Sid.

He has a NTC. He wanted to come to Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh.

Now read this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/29471/ryan-kesler-staying-put-has-domino-effect

Call me crazy, but this is a repeat of last year.

Anaheim had a better offer. Vancouver wanted to take it, Kesler wouldn't waive.

Pitt knew this and wouldn't increase their offer.

Since Kesler isn't a UFA, Gillis decided to hold on until summer to try again.

Whatcha think?

 

[Shady Machine]

It would've required a little creativity and maybe moving one of Orpik or Niskanen to get Kesler. To get Goc, you might have needed to ask FLA to eat some money and give a 4th instead of a 5th. But, without going crazy, I think it could've been done. I just don't buy for two seconds that 'we would've stayed pat' bull****. With everyone healthy and especially after how his moves didn't pay off last year, he'd have wanted a do-over.

That's fair and I didn't buy that either.

 

[Sutter16]

It's obvious that the Penguins do not want to trade Derrick Pouliot. But I think, after we find out Letang's longterm health this summer, and after hearing how aggressive we were in out purisuit of Kesler that if Letang is at no risk, I think Shero would include Pouliot in a Kesler deal IF Letang is good too go... Kesler watch picks up again this June... I like the moves we made today and I'd bet Goc re-signs. Shero likes him.

Kunitz-Crosby-BB/Stempniak
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
Goc-Sutter-BB/Stempniak
Glass-Vitale-Adams

I can deal with Glass but I really want Megna in for Adams. But i really like that lineup and our deadline. It's MUCH safer to go after Kesler at the draft.

 

[KIRK]

The bolded can't really be tossed around like an accident when evaluating Shero. Pittsburgh's earned a reputation as a great place to play under his tenure. That didn't used to be the case.

Some of that has to do with ZOMG Sidz thar! But some of it does not. Pascal Dupuis, when talking about the idea of UFA referenced the Penguins' stick budget being triple some other teams as symbolic for why he didn't.

Zbynek Michalek wanted out (or else, the coaches wanted him out) and Shero immediately traded him to the only place he wanted to be, despite being under no obligation to do that. Contrast that with the way Gillis handled the Kesler situation. Or the Luongo situation. Or the Schneider situation.

Word gets around.

When upper management treats players with respect and gives them access to the best facilities, you make the 3 team shortlist of a guy like Kesler (which even the Rangers couldn't crack). You go into free agency targeting two guys and get both of them (unless their wives are dead set on Minnesota).

Shero's turned Pittsburgh into Philly and the Red Wings as a "destination" franchise. This can't be handwaved away as Iginla's whim, instead of something Shero and his bosses have meticulously constructed.

For a destination franchise, the Pens sure have a problem attracting free agents. Just saying . . .

 

[KeepitinPitt]

The bolded can't really be tossed around like an accident when evaluating Shero. Pittsburgh's earned a reputation as a great place to play under his tenure. That didn't used to be the case.

Some of that has to do with ZOMG Sidz thar! But some of it does not. Pascal Dupuis, when talking about the idea of UFA referenced the Penguins' stick budget being triple some other teams as symbolic for why he didn't.

Zbynek Michalek wanted out (or else, the coaches wanted him out) and Shero immediately traded him to the only place he wanted to be, despite being under no obligation to do that. Contrast that with the way Gillis handled the Kesler situation. Or the Luongo situation. Or the Schneider situation.

Word gets around.

When upper management treats players with respect and gives them access to the best facilities, you make the 3 team shortlist of a guy like Kesler (which even the Rangers couldn't crack). You go into free agency targeting two guys and get both of them (unless their wives are dead set on Minnesota).

Shero's turned Pittsburgh into Philly and the Red Wings as a "destination" franchise. This can't be handwaved away as Iginla's whim, instead of something Shero and his bosses have meticulously constructed.

I think you're giving Shero way too much credit here. The reason Pittsburgh wasn't a destination franchise before Shero is because they were too busy trying to climb their way out of debt while doing their best to put together a competitive team on a budget. Shero was handed the reigns just as the team was finally getting over that hump (thanks in large part to Sid, Geno and a new arena). I give Mario and Burkle all the credit in the world, but Shero, not so much. Not saying he hasn't contributed, because I do agree that he is an easy guy for players to deal with, but I think there are plenty of other GMs who could have done the same thing.

 

[KIRK]

I'm going to throw something out there, you guys tell me if it sticks

Ryan Kesler wants to come east

Kesler likes Bylsma. Shero. And the idea of playing with Sid.

He has a NTC. He wanted to come to Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh.

Now read this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/29471/ryan-kesler-staying-put-has-domino-effect

Call me crazy, but this is a repeat of last year.

Anaheim had a better offer. Vancouver wanted to take it, Kesler wouldn't waive.

Pitt knew this and wouldn't increase their offer.

Since Kesler isn't a UFA, Gillis decided to hold on until summer to try again.

Whatcha think?

It's an interesting theory.

I think Pouliot was the deal breaker.

And, I would not be surprised if Anaheim offered more and Kesler didn't want to go there (not just because of Sid, but because getting to the finals from the West is a war, the travel sucks, it's further from Michigan, etc).

Anyway, if you're theory is true, then good on Gillis for calling Shero's bluff. It reminds me of 2012, when Sid came back but Shero did nothing at the deadline. He gave the 'getting Sid back was the big acquisition' BS, but his tone and body language said someone wouldn't give him what he wanted and thought he had for the price he wanted.

 

[KeepitinPitt]

I'm going to throw something out there, you guys tell me if it sticks

Ryan Kesler wants to come east

Kesler likes Bylsma. Shero. And the idea of playing with Sid.

He has a NTC. He wanted to come to Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh.

Now read this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/29471/ryan-kesler-staying-put-has-domino-effect

Call me crazy, but this is a repeat of last year.

Anaheim had a better offer. Vancouver wanted to take it, Kesler wouldn't waive.

Pitt knew this and wouldn't increase their offer.

Since Kesler isn't a UFA, Gillis decided to hold on until summer to try again.

Whatcha think?

Sounds plausible. Still don't like the idea of Shero playing hardball when he could have landed a selke caliber player for a relatively reasonable fee.

 

[Mo Wanchuk]

I hope they both get hit by oncoming traffic.

Dude something is off with you.. The other day you were wishing injury to the blackhawks. Now this? Come on get a grip.

 

[KIRK]

I think you're giving Shero way too much credit here. The reason Pittsburgh wasn't a destination franchise before Shero is because they were too busy trying to climb their way out of debt while doing their best to put together a competitive team on a budget. Shero was handed the reigns just as the team was finally getting over that hump (thanks in large part to Sid, Geno and a new arena). I give Mario and Burkle all the credit in the world, but Shero, not so much. Not saying he hasn't contributed, because I do agree that he is an easy guy for players to deal with, but I think there are plenty of other GMs who could have done the same thing.

How much more successful in 8 offseasons was Ray Shero in signing guys with no previous ties to the Pens than Craig Patrick was in his 1 post lockout offseason?

In 8 offseasons, Shero has given us Martin, Michalek, Sykora, Eaton . . . am I forgetting any impact free agent signings?

In 1 offseason, Patrick got Palffy and Gonchar.

I'm just saying . . . wouldn't impact players signing here actually be a prerequisite to be considered a destination franchise?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'm going to throw something out there, you guys tell me if it sticks

Ryan Kesler wants to come east

Kesler likes Bylsma. Shero. And the idea of playing with Sid.

He has a NTC. He wanted to come to Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh.

Now read this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/29471/ryan-kesler-staying-put-has-domino-effect

Call me crazy, but this is a repeat of last year.

Anaheim had a better offer. Vancouver wanted to take it, Kesler wouldn't waive.

Pitt knew this and wouldn't increase their offer.

Since Kesler isn't a UFA, Gillis decided to hold on until summer to try again.

Whatcha think?

It seems plausible.

 

[alcanalz]

I'm going to throw something out there, you guys tell me if it sticks

Ryan Kesler wants to come east

Kesler likes Bylsma. Shero. And the idea of playing with Sid.

He has a NTC. He wanted to come to Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh.

Now read this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/29471/ryan-kesler-staying-put-has-domino-effect

Call me crazy, but this is a repeat of last year.

Anaheim had a better offer. Vancouver wanted to take it, Kesler wouldn't waive.

Pitt knew this and wouldn't increase their offer.

Since Kesler isn't a UFA, Gillis decided to hold on until summer to try again.

Whatcha think?

Connections are okay. I think it's more that: a) Anaheim didn't have the C they needed, b) Anaheim was in their conference, and c) Gillis is way too stubborn and just refuses to let go of some of his assets.

Last year the Bruins were 1 period from losing to Toronto, and had no business winning that game.

The Pens and Bruins will finish 1 and 2, and that means there's a good chance the Bruins won't even make it to us. Montreal plays them tough, and now they have Vanek. Toronto is the kind of team that can beat them, and so is Columbus. And that western conference is going to be a meat grinder, the team that limps out of that may not have much left.

DB doesn't have many decisions to be making this year. The first three lines are more or less set (or interchangeable enough). And TV might be back.

So yeah, I think we have a solid chance. Let's get Gladdams down to about 6 min TOI each, and then we'll go from there. We just picked up forwards who play 16-20 minutes a night. No need to run that 4th line out for 10 minutes a night.

You are quickly becoming one of my favourite posters this day.

For a destination franchise, the Pens sure have a problem attracting free agents. Just saying . . .

Do we need to beat the Suter / Parise reasonings to death again? Yeesh.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think you're being a little generous.

You're asking Stempniak and Jokinen to be on hot streaks and the KCS and JMN lines to function in their most ideal states.

You're asking Orpik and to a lesser extent Scuderi not to be cluster***** out there.

You're asking Fleury to turn back the playoff clock a half dozen years.

And, you're asking Bylsma to get a clue.

Anything can happen. But, we'd be the underdog in a series against Boston. I'd be nervous against Toronto, Montreal, New Jersey, New York, maybe even Detroit. I think we'd lose it if we saw Philly.

Not saying we can't find a way or that all the chips might not fall right like they did in 2009. I just think it's wide open and thus don't see our shot as being 2008 good or even 2009 or 2013 good.

I think we're more likely to be one and done than to reach the cup finals, but I hope you're right on this one.

I likely am being a little too generous, I'm just in that kind of mood

That said, I personally think our top 6 with Bennett (assuming he returns and Bylsma plays him there) is better than last year's top 6. Not better than it could have been, but better than it was. Also, we will see how things play out, but Stempniak is a more skilled option than Kennedy and you can call them a wash and Goc vs Cooke is fairly even but Goc's versatility may give him the edge. The fourth line is the 4th line.

I guess my point is that Bylsma has less options to screw things up. It's obvious who are the top 9 wingers and they will all be the right ones. At worst, our top line is Kunitz-Crosby-Stemps and to me that is still better than KCD in theory.

I personally like our defense better than last year as well. Call me crazy, but Bylsma line up last year vs this year, I might just take this year's.

 

[Shockmaster]

If the Penguins want to make a run at Kesler during the draft, what are the chances Gillis won't be the Canucks GM?

 

[Shady Machine]

If the Penguins want to make a run at Kesler during the draft, what are the chances Gillis won't be the Canucks GM?

Good question but it will won't matter much. If Kesler wanted out before, he really wants out now.

 

[cygnus47]

This off-season is Shero's last chance in my mind. The whole drafting PMD's thing is peaking. Our prospect pool is just about to overflow and we have useless vets. This year he has to cut ties with Orpik and start having some faith in the youth.

 

[Shockmaster]

Good question but it will won't matter much. If Kesler wanted out before, he really wants out now.

Oh I don't doubt that. I'm just curious if the next Canucks GM would try to be more accommodating to Kesler.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

Even without any acquisitions today the Pens are the best team in the conference outside of maybe Boston.

On the other hand, no matter how stacked the team may or may not be, they won't get far if Fleury doesn't play well.

My point is the team will win on Fleury, Sid and Geno's back, not Kesler, Iginla, or Hossa.

 

[KIRK]

Connections are okay. I think it's more that: a) Anaheim didn't have the C they needed, b) Anaheim was in their conference, and c) Gillis is way too stubborn and just refuses to let go of some of his assets.




You are quickly becoming one of my favourite posters this day.



Do we need to beat the Suter / Parise reasonings to death again? Yeesh.

Billybudd insisted to be that the Pens are a destination franchise. Fine. Ray Shero has been here for 8 summers. Name the top guys he's signed who had no ties to the organization?

Martin, Michalek, Sykora, Eaton. You want to add Cooke and Ruutu? Who am I missing? Oops, Satan and Fedotenko. Happy? Does that scream destination franchise to you?

****, in 1 offseason, Craig Patrick got Palffy and Gonchar, and he didn't pay over market value.

And, don't give me Shero signed Recchi and Scuderi. One, those guys had ties to the team. Two, Patrick signed Recchi and LeClair.

I'm sorry, Philly, which completely ****** over Richards and Carter, had an easier time the following summer signing guys that Shero has had in 8 summers.

That's not just about Suter and Parise. That's about 8 years and what I see as an arrogant assumption that people should feel lucky to sign in Pittsburgh for what Shero offers and don't need to be 'sold' on signing.

I likely am being a little too generous, I'm just in that kind of mood

That said, I personally think our top 6 with Bennett (assuming he returns and Bylsma plays him there) is better than last year's top 6. Not better than it could have been, but better than it was. Also, we will see how things play out, but Stempniak is a more skilled option than Kennedy and you can call them a wash and Goc vs Cooke is fairly even but Goc's versatility may give him the edge. The fourth line is the 4th line.

I guess my point is that Bylsma has less options to screw things up. It's obvious who are the top 9 wingers and they will all be the right ones. At worst, our top line is Kunitz-Crosby-Stemps and to me that is still better than KCD in theory.

I personally like our defense better than last year as well. Call me crazy, but Bylsma line up last year vs this year, I might just take this year's.

Being generous is fine. One could say KCS will be no worse in a tough playoff series than KCD and that JMN is an upgrade, if only by default, on IMN. One could say our bottom six is better. Same for the D. Then again, will Vokoun be back, because he probably was the only one to save the Pens from Fleury and Bylsma leading them to one and done last year?

 

[alcanalz]

If the Penguins want to make a run at Kesler during the draft, what are the chances Gillis won't be the Canucks GM?

As soon as they miss the playoffs, I'd be shocked if Gillis isn't fired.

 

[Shockmaster]

Even without any acquisitions today the Pens are the best team in the conference outside of maybe Boston.

On the other hand, no matter how stacked the team may or may not be, they won't get far if Fleury doesn't play well.

My point is the team will win on Fleury, Sid and Geno's back, not Kesler, Iginla, or Hossa.

Don't underestimate Bylsma's ability to be out-coached in a playoff series.