The Daily Bozak Thread

Ash35

Registered User
Jan 29, 2010
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What you say above is a common misconception people make.

Put it this way... Bozak on the 1st line has 1st line line mates. Right? He's playing with elite players.
But he also plays against 1st rate defenders.
Sure.

Now...
Bozak on the 3rd line has THIRD LINE LINE MATES, while playing against 3rd rate defenders.

The 2 cancel each other out.

But then you must add into the mix that 3rd line players have substantially less time on ice, as well as limited/no PP time.

What do you get when all equations are included? A DRAMATIC drop in production when someone is moved to the 3rd line.

You are spot on. People think just because Kadri was tearing it up playing lesser minutes with lesser players that this is in some way common. Fact is not many third line players who pick up the scraps for PP time put up many points up at all. Kadri is just a special player. Put Tlusty back on the Carolina's third line and you will see what we mean.
 
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Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
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Isn't he kind of the perfect fit for this team moving forward? Forget all the "we need a first line center" or the "Bozak would be a perfect 3rd line center on a Cup team" or even the ridiculous "career AHLer" lines for just a second and let's think about the team for a second. Let's assume Lupul and JVR stay healthy and maintain this level of impact, meaning they have long-term cap-friendly deals. Beyond these two, Grabovski is the only forward locked up beyond next season. That means Kessel, Kulemin, MacArthur, McClement and most importantly, Kadri, will all need new contracts in the next two years.

The Kessel contract is tough to predict but I have a hard time seeing him accepting less than he's making now, even with a new salary cap.

I doubt we let Kulemin walk and he's probably looking at a similar contract to what he's at right now.

You can expect McClement to want a raise - and the Leafs to give it to him. $3/year wouldn't be out of the question.

Kadri is also a tough one to predict but players with his combination of skill and compete level should always be taken care of. Whether or not he gets a bridge deal, he's going to want to cash in in a few years and we're going to need to be prepared to pay him. Not a stretch to say he'll be our highest paid forward sooner rather than later.

MacArthur may end up being the odd man out here. He hasn't distinguished himself as a difference-maker and I love that he's a guy who consistently shows up when we play the tougher teams but I don't think we give Mac what he wants.


That means our options to fill out the top 9 are:

- Mac at $2.5-$3
- current fringe guy like Frattin, Colborne or Komarov
- future promotion like D'Amigo, Ross, Biggs, etc
- UFA


So the top nine look like this:


Lupul ($5.25) - ??? - Kessel ($5.5)

Kulemin ($3) - Grabovski ($5.5) - McClement ($3)

JVR ($4.25) - Kadri ($6) - MacArthur ($3)


Throw another $3 at the fourth line - McLaren, Komarov, whoever.

So in total our forwards minus the elusive "1st line center" total $38.5.



Now a look at the defense.

Only Liles is locked in past 2014 at $3.8.

I have a hard time seeing us letting Phaneuf walk. Some people would argue he's not worth $6.5 but he'll only be 30 and it's not a stretch to imagine someone would offer him that. Let's say the captain re-signs for where he's at.

Kostka's been fun but he's not around in two years.

Gunnarsson, Franson, Gardiner and Fraser are all looking at raises. Also possible that Morgan Rielly will be a beautiful part of the picture within the next two years. The way Franson's played this year coupled with the fact that he's our only right-handed shot makes him pretty valuable to us. If Liles is worth $3.8, Franson is absolutely worth $4.

Gardiner is a bit of a wild card. He's struggled this year but he's got the talent to break out. Split the difference and we'll say he gets $3.

Gunnarsson and Fraser but both have value to the Leafs. Fraser could be the guy we pair with the Rielly's, the Blacker's or the Percy's to protect them as they integrate into the lineup. Give them a combined $4.

That leaves the D looking like this:

Phaneuf ($6.5)
Franson ($4)
Liles ($3.8)
Gardiner ($3)
Gunnar ($2.8)
Fraser ($1.2)

Totalling... ($21.3)


Both Reimer and Scrivens will need new contracts after next season.

If we've actually found a starting goalie in Reimer, and I believe we have, we're going to have to pay him like one. Reimer gets $4.

In summation,

Forwards, minus top line center - $38.5
Defense - $21.3
Goalies - $4

That puts us at $63.8. You can play around with the salaries - maybe Franson, Phaneuf, etc don't get paid quite as much. Maybe we don't re-sign Mac, maybe Grabovski gets traded, maybe we amnesty Liles. Bottom line is we're right up against the projected cap without a 7th d-man, 13th forward or a back-up goalie.





All this leads me to my point. We won't have the secondary scoring to stack our top line. Back away from the championship formula that every team must have in order to have a chance and take a look at what we've built here. The Leafs are a team with three solid scoring lines and the pieces to put together a solid special teams unit. A guy like Getzlaf or Brad Richards takes away cap space that we will need soon to re-sign our younger players as they develop. We put $8 into a player like that and we lose the dynamic we've been building towards. And there's no guarantee that any player we bring in will be a fit with Kessel, who's historically had a tough time finding a center.

I'll be honest, I'm a huge believer in Bozak and what he brings to the team. 11 points in his last 12 games. He's shown the ability to go on streaks like this in the past. He also kills penalties, wins faceoffs, and hasn't look out of place playing over 20 minutes a game. I think he's still got some offensive upside he hasn't reached yet but he's started to show it the past few games. Re-signing him allows us to roll out three lines that can be dangerous on any given night and it might take some creative moves just to get him signed.

The bottom line is that Bozak will never be Ryan Getzlaf, but we don't need him to be. He fits the team, he knows his role, and he's been playing cost-effective, heavy minutes on a young team that has already beaten some of the top teams in the league. Why not keep the course?

There is so much wrong in here it's scary.

Your saying we would be up against the cap in two years? It's very likely to rise by a couple million for starters.

Kadri at 6m in 2 years?:shakehead

Kessel settles for 5.5m ?:shakehead

We don't sign Dion to a back diving retirement deal?:shakehead

This team is in dire need of C depth, why has Bozak not signed before the trade deadline passed?

Why are we in a position to either lose him for no asset returns or extorted into a bad contract.

If he will sign for 3rd/4th line money, then maybe. 1.5m/2.5m per for 4 years, and thats it.
 

Disgruntled Observer*

Guest
You are spot on. People think just people Kadri was tearing it up playing lesser minutes with lesser players that this is in some way common. Fact is not many third line players who pick up the scraps for PP time put up many points up at all. Kadri is just a special player. Put Tlusty back on the Carolina's third line and you will see what I mean.

It's strange that some people don't get something that is such common sense.

How many extra assists does Bozak get because Kessel/Lupul/JVR have excellent (non 3rd line) finish?
How many extra goals does Bozak get because of excellent (non 3rd line player) passes from the same three?

Then minus the PP time, and extra time on ice and it just gets embarrassing.

Oh... but I forgot...
the defensemen won't be quite as good.
So that makes up for all of the above
:shakehead
It's so ridiculous...
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
That doesn't even make any sense. If Bozak was on a sheltered line, he would be taking on significantly weaker opposition. In fact, that would actually increase his offense.

We see the same with shuffling of Nash in today's game. His output is much higher when Phaneuf is off the ice. That would be the case for any player in the NHL. Point being, Bozak is a top-six forward.

Your nuts, Bozak would increase his offense on the 3rd line with 3rd line talent and 3rd line worth pp time? AHAHAHAH:laugh::laugh::laugh:

What a sad, desperate, shill job.:shakehead
 

Disgruntled Observer*

Guest
Scoring against first liner defenders are normally a lot more difficult than lower rate defenders. The simple reason has to do with the fact that shut down types that represent an offensive threat are normally scarce.

No it doesn't, because Bozak isn't a third line player. He isn't a cross checking player. More so, I don't see any working class traits in him. On the other hand, Jay McClement would be a third liner.

Point being, Bozak would be top-six forward playing on a line that is third in minutes. In fact, I don't think his minutes would be that low because he'd represent an offensive threat. The players he'd be playing would be more offensive-oriented forwards.

In other words, Bozak on the third line would be have three offensive lines. It would be a sheltered line that would actually represent a threat to the opposition. Problem is that you need working class guys to steer the opposition, maintain leads, and what not. Bozak isn't as effective as McClement in that regard. Besides, he doesn't have characteristics that we see in shut down players.

Roughly a quarter of Bozak's points were produced on the power play. For that reason, if he's on a sheltered offensive, even with reduced PP time, he'd probably produce a lot more. The PP is an opportunity to score, but you are going against specialists who will limit one's production.

Put him on a line with someone like Frattin/ Kulemin and it'll be a very threatening line. During Kulemin's 30 goal season, he scored around 25 goals during EE. That kind of performance on a third line is just going to outstretch the opposition defensively. For that reason, I can't expect us maintaining three top six lines because clearly be too expensive.

So why do the vast vast vast majority of 1st line players in the league have WAYYYYYY more points than 3rd line players?

Based on your (ridiculous) argument... even if the 3rd line players aren't as talented, shouldn't they ALL be racking up the points against those horrible 3rd rate defensemen?
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
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Really hate the whole "Bozak and Kessel are buds off the ice and have great on-ice chemistry" crap. They have very little chemistry. Bozak is not a stalwart defensively and he literally creates nothing for Kessel offensively. He has maybe 1 game in every 10 where he actually looks competent offensively. The only thing that he's great at is winning FO's(hasn't been that spectacular since the beginning of March) and his line still manages to get hemmed in their zone 90% of the time.

Not a TB fan, but he holds his own on the 2nd PK unit also.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
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I love his accountability and discussing how he was trying to make too many bad passes and had a poor night on the draw. Character guy.

UMMM a character guy, a leader, would have signed a contract by now.

TB has now painted our organization into a corner, either we lose him for nothing or sign him to a contract when all our leverage has been lost post TD.
 

Eb

Registered User
Feb 27, 2011
7,806
610
Toronto
Importance to the team:

Bozak > Grabo

Skill-set:

Grabo > Bozak

Ultimate trump card:

Bozak > Grabo
 

p.l.f.

use the force
Feb 27, 2002
47,486
1
Toronto, CANADA
if bozak wants 4.5 to 5.0 let him walk
3.5 to 4.0 fine

jvr ------- kessel
lupul kadri kulemin
frattin bozak -----
mclaren mclement komarov/orr
 

therealkoho

Him/Leaf/fan
Jul 10, 2009
17,070
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the Prior

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,806
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Coattail riding wannabe. Just another Moore,Staj

Guess you missed the game winning pass to Kessel last night, also his work in the final mins with Kule and Mcclement was coattailing at it's best.

Those are mins you are going to see plenty of in the playoffs.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,806
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I love his accountability and discussing how he was trying to make too many bad passes and had a poor night on the draw. Character guy.

Like how he defends Kessel, good teammate. He wants to be a Leaf, he fits the culture of young upstarts in our room. He's grown in interviews, on the ice, and as a player. Not sure why he is so underappreciated on this board. Maybe it's his hairstyle. :laugh:
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,369
10,263
If anyone makes a nice pass its a nice pass, if Bozak makes 1 nice pass that results in a goal and misses 20 other passes in a night, for weeks we will hear about his elite playmaking ability.

I get it.

On the flip if Grabo makes a single bad pass he is a talentless bum gets benched and cursed for a month.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,806
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Actually I don't think you get it, Grabo makes a pass that cost us a goal last night, if Rangers came back to win the game, that was the turning point. Plus Bozak made many good passes last night, some of us are just realistic he is not Crosby, but for a guy out of college, in only his 3rd full NHL season, he is a very positive player on our team, he's been a big part of our PK, he hasn't been a black hole of a center for JVR and Kessel, he does many underappreciated things to win us games. Ie. last night's final mins of the game.

Bottom line is the Coach realizes his value, he gets more tough mins than any fwd we got in terms of first line defensive pairings, PP, PK, and key faceoffs. He is a guy we developed and he is getting better every season, no one is unrealistic to think he is Sundin or Gilmour, but as Tyler Bozak, he is a great fit for our team.
 

TML23

Registered User
Aug 2, 2008
1,000
5
Toronto
If Bozak decides to stay with the Leafs for around 3.5 mil per year, I will be okay with that. However, as soon as he goes over that range, that's when we should let him walk.

Who knows, he may take a discount to stay with the Leafs! :D
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,369
10,263
Actually I don't think you get it, Grabo makes a pass that cost us a goal last night, if Rangers came back to win the game, that was the turning point. Plus Bozak made many good passes last night, some of us are just realistic he is not Crosby, but for a guy out of college, in only his 3rd full NHL season, he is a very positive player on our team, he's been a big part of our PK, he hasn't been a black hole of a center for JVR and Kessel, he does many underappreciated things to win us games. Ie. last night's final mins of the game.

Bottom line is the Coach realizes his value, he gets more tough mins than any fwd we got in terms of first line defensive pairings, PP, PK, and key faceoffs. He is a guy we developed and he is getting better every season, no one is unrealistic to think he is Sundin or Gilmour, but as Tyler Bozak, he is a great fit for our team.

That's great I want to see how he fits on the third line and see what he can really do. You do know a lot of coaches trial would be 1st line C on the third, ie. Kadri has proven himself 1C, Bozak inherited it by default. Grabo is a proven 2c that plays better in that role and is being cast out of his element.

Why not put people where they look like they fit?

JVR Kadri Kessel
Lupul Grabo Kule
Mac Bozak Frat
Komarov Mc Orr

Or

Elevate Lupul up drop jvr back
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
Guess you missed the game winning pass to Kessel last night, also his work in the final mins with Kule and Mcclement was coattailing at it's best.

Those are mins you are going to see plenty of in the playoffs.

As a top 6 offensive player, your damn skippy he is a coattail riding wannabe, along the lines of the names i posted.

Like i have posted Inter, he is a 3rd/4th line talent and should be paid accordingly.

I'm most displeased that contract negotiations have gone past the TD.

I have seen this BS play out before and it rarely ends well.

He is not signed because his contract demands are ridiculous and he is trying to cash in before the tail falls off the coat, ala Moore.
 

TML23

Registered User
Aug 2, 2008
1,000
5
Toronto
Actually I don't think you get it, Grabo makes a pass that cost us a goal last night, if Rangers came back to win the game, that was the turning point. Plus Bozak made many good passes last night, some of us are just realistic he is not Crosby, but for a guy out of college, in only his 3rd full NHL season, he is a very positive player on our team, he's been a big part of our PK, he hasn't been a black hole of a center for JVR and Kessel, he does many underappreciated things to win us games. Ie. last night's final mins of the game.

Bottom line is the Coach realizes his value, he gets more tough mins than any fwd we got in terms of first line defensive pairings, PP, PK, and key faceoffs. He is a guy we developed and he is getting better every season, no one is unrealistic to think he is Sundin or Gilmour, but as Tyler Bozak, he is a great fit for our team.

I do agree with you. A lot of Leaf fans are asking Bozak to be the #1 center for the Leafs and play like Crosby. Currently he is only make 1.5 mil per year and he is playing in many aspects of the game including PK, PP, 1st line center, Faceoff specialist.

I would have to say, it's amazing that we were able to pick up Bozak for basically free (entry-level contract signed with the Leafs). We really need to appreciate how much value he was able to bring to the team.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,369
10,263
I do agree with you. A lot of Leaf fans are asking Bozak to be the #1 center for the Leafs and play like Crosby. Currently he is only make 1.5 mil per year and he is playing in many aspects of the game including PK, PP, 1st line center, Faceoff specialist.

I would have to say, it's amazing that we were able to pick up Bozak for basically free (entry-level contract signed with the Leafs). We really need to appreciate how much value he was able to bring to the team.

We all know he was free an brought some value. We also all know he is not a 1c so why not audition him in his future role?
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,806
21,012
That's great I want to see how he fits on the third line and see what he can really do. You do know a lot of coaches trial would be 1st line C on the third, ie. Kadri has proven himself 1C, Bozak inherited it by default. Grabo is a proven 2c that plays better in that role and is being cast out of his element.

Why not put people where they look like they fit?

JVR Kadri Kessel
Lupul Grabo Kule
Mac Bozak Frat
Komarov Mc Orr

Or

Elevate Lupul up drop jvr back

You just told me last week it was not time to experiment, and this is what you post?

JVR, Kessel, and BOZAK just had a great game last night and you want to experiment.

Kulemin was dead with Grabo, and you want to put them back together.

I get it, you want to rescue Grabo at the cost of the team, he was a #2C on a bad team.

I said, predicted, screamed when Grabo was no longer our #2C we would no longer be a lottery team, Grabo is no longer a #2C on this team, the proof is for all to see where we are today.

This discussion reminds me of last year, where there were 4 or 5 Ron Wilson defenders left on board citing his 500 + wins, Grabo is like Wilson, his best before date has passed, time to move on for some of us. He will be a buy out option this summer, if Nonis can get a bag of pucks for him in a trade, I would nominate him for GM of the year. To think we missed a 1st rd pick for him is assinine, his value is like Komi's right now.
 

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