Speculation: The Coaching Thread

[Matias Maccete]

Which is why I would like to see this thread locked and put in a dumpster fire.

You could use the ignore thread button.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

Which is why I would like to see this thread locked and put in a dumpster fire.

Why? Because the objectivity is too much to handle? Ok, I'll say what others want to hear.

Tippett is the greatest coach in the history of the NHL and Maloney is the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Coyotes would have never won the 6 cups without Tippett and Maloney.

Our new ownership is making money and I look forward to signing Stamkos to a long term deal because he can never get a chance at a cup in Tampa like he would in Arizona.

Tim Horton's is such a successful revenue stream that the new downtown arena is going to named the Tim Horton's Centre.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Why? Because the objectivity is too much to handle? Ok, I'll say what others want to hear.

Tippett is the greatest coach in the history of the NHL and Maloney is the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Coyotes would have never won the 6 cups without Tippett and Maloney.

Our new ownership is making money and I look forward to signing Stamkos to a long term deal because he can never get a chance at a cup in Tampa like he would in Arizona.

Tim Horton's is such a successful revenue stream that the new downtown arena is going to named the Tim Horton's Centre.

Not at all - it is b/c at some point, all coaches will come under some sort of fire. It could be just as much not Tippett as it is Tippett on a game-to-game basis.

Let's say Tippett sat down this offseason and addressed certain things like implementing a different PK structure, b/c we struggle to move bodies away from the crease. So we apply it, but we have some less than stellar results. Players have some lapses here and there at critical moments. However, when we have switched schemes up occasionally, we struggle even more with clearing the crease. And sometimes, the players are simply not effective at making the play. So, he chose the option of "bad," instead of "worse."

Who deserves more blame? The coach or the players? The coach has the best option chosen. The players are trying, but have their breakdowns, too.

People wonder why Chipchura is out there when we need an extra attacker vs. Hanzal. Well, Hanzal has been dealing with minor injuries, so do you want the guy who is less talented but can perform at 99%, or the guy with more talent, but can perform at 65%? We have also seen Hanzal take some dumb penalties in the past, so given that we need to maintain possession and not have a situation where a dumb penalty comes into play, that can also factor into the decision-making process.

These are the decisions that need to be made on a game-by-game, shift-by-shift basis.

It is never that easy, no matter how much people want it to boil down to one particular thing.

 

[CC96]

People wonder why Chipchura is out there when we need an extra attacker vs. Hanzal. Well, Hanzal has been dealing with minor injuries, so do you want the guy who is less talented but can perform at 99%, or the guy with more talent, but can perform at 65%? We have also seen Hanzal take some dumb penalties in the past, so given that we need to maintain possession and not have a situation where a dumb penalty comes into play, that can also factor into the decision-making process.

I get that you're a Tippett apologist and everything, but are you seriously going trying to justify playing Chipchura as the sixth attacker?

You honestly believe there isn't a better combination of four forwards on this team, that doesn't involve Kyle Chipchura?

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

I get that you're a Tippett apologist and everything, but are you seriously going trying to justify playing Chipchura as the sixth attacker?

You honestly believe there isn't a better combination of four forwards on this team, that doesn't involve Kyle Chipchura?

I was going to write the exact same thing.

Just from a pts perspective.
Domi, Boedker, Hanzal, Duclair, Rieder, Doan, Vermette, Martinook, Richardson that's 9 guys w/equal or better stats/skills than Chips

Tipchura shouldn't see the ice as the 'extra attacker' ever.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

I'd also like to point out that Richardson shouldn't ever be out on the 3on3.

The forward rotation on 3on3 should be only the following players:

Domi/Duclair/Hanzal/Boedker/Rieder/Vermette

That is it.

You have 3 lines of 2 and then a rotation of 3 dmen OEL/Murphy/Stone

 

[BUX7PHX]

I get that you're a Tippett apologist and everything, but are you seriously going trying to justify playing Chipchura as the sixth attacker?

You honestly believe there isn't a better combination of four forwards on this team, that doesn't involve Kyle Chipchura?

I was going to write the exact same thing.

Just from a pts perspective.
Domi, Boedker, Hanzal, Duclair, Rieder, Doan, Vermette, Martinook, Richardson that's 9 guys w/equal or better stats/skills than Chips

Tipchura shouldn't see the ice as the 'extra attacker' ever.

Obviously, so people can say, "Why did he have Vermette out there - he has been invisible this year." Or "Why a rookie like Martinook?"

Has it ever occurred that in these situations, maybe we have a specific idea for what we want our 6th attacker to be able to do? We have some puck movement out there with Domi, Vermette, Boedker, and Rieder, but we need someone who can tie people up on the boards or tie sticks up against some pretty big bodies, but also has some quickness. Well, Duclair has some quickness, but maybe not the size needed. Hanzal has the right mix, but he just got done with his shift and is gassed. Doan's quickness is in question. Chipchura's can be as well. Chip, Richardson, and Hanzal all take faceoffs, in case AV gets thrown out, so they are automatically a peg up on a player like Down or Duclair. I could go on and on.

Yes, I am throwing hypotheticals out there, but it seems that people are bypassing the idea that a player can't get tired after running a 50 second shift, so it is okay to throw a tired player out there. Or that there may be a decision between two players, and he goes with the "safe" pick rather than the "risky" pick.

 

[XX]

Context is helpful in discussions like this one.

"Why you talking about the last five years of a coach that has been employed for seven?" Now on to defending Chipchura's usage.

 

[CC96]

Yes, I am throwing hypotheticals out there, but it seems that people are bypassing the idea that a player can't get tired after running a 50 second shift, so it is okay to throw a tired player out there. Or that there may be a decision between two players, and he goes with the "safe" pick rather than the "risky" pick.

Not sure what you're on about, I'd be fine with Vermette or Martinook as the 6th. attacker.

Considering Chipchura is the worst forward on the team, there are 715 possible combinations that are better options when using four forwards, and six attackers at the end of the game. 1,365 possible combinations, if you count the injured Downie and Vitale.

 

[cobra427]

Obviously, so people can say, "Why did he have Vermette out there - he has been invisible this year." Or "Why a rookie like Martinook?"

Has it ever occurred that in these situations, maybe we have a specific idea for what we want our 6th attacker to be able to do? We have some puck movement out there with Domi, Vermette, Boedker, and Rieder, but we need someone who can tie people up on the boards or tie sticks up against some pretty big bodies, but also has some quickness. Well, Duclair has some quickness, but maybe not the size needed. Hanzal has the right mix, but he just got done with his shift and is gassed. Doan's quickness is in question. Chipchura's can be as well. I could go on and on.

Yes, I am throwing hypotheticals out there, but it seems that people are bypassing the idea that a player can't get tired after running a 50 second shift, so it is okay to throw a tired player out there. Or that there may be a decision between two players, and he goes with the "safe" pick rather than the "risky" pick.

Totally agree. There are a 100+ reasons Tip or any other coach uses certain players in certain situations. A player is playing well that game, or sits because he is playing poorly, is under the weather, is gassed from his last shift, has a nagging injury. All of these decisions are made on the fly. Its not always about putting the shiniest newest toy (Domi/Duclair/Tik/pick your favorite rookie) out there getting these shifts versus the old dogs (Doan/Vermette/Z/Chip). Trying to micro manage any coach on his shift to shift choices or his line combinations is crazy and if you guys think watching it on TV that you have any idea what is going on, or would/could make better decisions, good luck with that.

DM chooses the roster and gives Tip expectations. Those expectations are not the BS we hear as fans, they are the realistic expectations. If DM tells Tip, look we have a playoff roster and that is what I expect, I would expect Tip to say, "are you serious". I more expect him to tell Tip, "Look, do the best you can with this roster and we expect to be better then last year, barring injuries. If we catch lightning in a bottle, meaning Smith is a top 5 goalie, Domi/Duclair generate points and our offense is better, Bods/Hanzal have career years, and the Pacific is weak, maybe we can scratch are way into the playoffs". Tip would agree, with both of them knowing a lot has to go right for the playoffs to happen. So far, we are ahead of expectations and our young guys are very promising. I don't get shooting the coach for the results or progress so far this year.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Not sure what you're on about, I'd be fine with Vermette or Martinook as the 6th. attacker.

Considering Chipchura is the worst forward on the team, there are 715 possible combinations that are better options when using four forwards, and six attackers at the end of the game. 1,365 possible combinations, if you count the injured Downie and Vitale.

Can you not read? I just proposed the following scenario in my previous post:

4 players out there - Domi, Vermette, Boedker, and Rieder. I figure OEL is a given as our Dman. Unless you know how to clone Vermette, he can't be out there again.

Hanzal finished a shift, but you have the option of throwing a tired player out there in Marty, if you want. We don't have another established face off guy outside of Gordon, Richardson, and Chip. Gordon isn't exactly known for offense, but then again, neither are the other two. Chip is taller and heavier than Richardson and has a better FO percentage. Having someone with a little more reach and a little better chance of winning the draw isn't sexy, but it is the safe play there. Other situations warrant other possibilities. If Hanzal and Vermette are both out there, then yes, Chip become obsolete. But it is addressed on a scenario by scenario basis...

 

[CC96]

Who cares if Chipchura's face-off ability is marginally better than Richardson's, or another center's. He basically kills possession instantly every time he has the puck. Even if he's 1.5% more likely to win a face-off compared to another center, it won't matter, once he has the puck, tries to do one of his sick dangles or drop passes, and then just turns it over, immediately, to the other team.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Keep in mind, I am not saying that you are wrong. At certain points of the year, yes it will be hard to justify player X vs. player Y.

A serious question, b/c I have come across as a dick for the anti-Tippett:

Would you say that the 2009-10 season was a success or not?

The reason I ask is b/c Tip has been on record as saying that there were times during that season when he was asked why he put Vern Fiddler on a line with Doan and Lombardi. Tip's response was that Fiddler is an energy guy and sometimes we need a little pick me up for a few shifts or parts of the game. He is good at getting people going.

So, I have seen questions of why a certain player is paired with certain others. Is it not possible that Tip identifies something that he likes in practice between two players and makes that decision then? OR even that his lack or habit of in-game moves may be as a result of knowing that he is still using the best possible strategic lineups, even to the point of testing players out on different lines and then returning to the originals? Many variables to think about there, but if he is doing these very things that brought previous success - don't you think it comes down to the players making the play, too?

 

[XX]

Many variables to think about there, but if he is doing these very things that brought previous success - don't you think it comes down to the players making the play, too?

Previous success is a few miles back in the rearview mirror.

His loyalty to "his guys" is undying and is one of his major faults. Chipchura is one of those guys. So was Moss, and Campbell. Tippett absolutely loves to talk about how he is in the "business of winning" as he crutches on his handpicked veterans that consistently don't get it done. The turtling with a one goal lead is as pathetic as it is predictable. It doesn't matter if Chipchura gives you a 5% better chance to win the game on any given night if that comes at the expense of a player like Martinook being thrown out there. Chipchura (hopefully) has no future with this franchise, Martinook does. Anyone that disagrees with this notion should just raise their hand so I can ignore you forever. It's a fundamental and inescapable concept rebuilding teams have to deal with.

This year, the kids have totally embarrassed everybody and forced their way into icetime. In your parlance, it's pretty clear that they are "making the play" consistently when everybody is struggling and have been struggling the last few years. The core of the roster hasn't had much turnover aside from Yandle. Everyone crowing about how the roster is "overachieving" has forgotten why it's perceived that way to begin with, which is the **** play of everyone else. Nothing has changed. Players just got older, and continue to be ineffective. I half think this was the plan all along - to tank with dignity and 'good guys' around the kids for Matthews. If so, mission accomplished. The only problem was telling the bubble folks they meant to make the playoffs.

The kids, with their youthful rushes that ignore Tippett dump-n-chase dogma and their troll goals, are the only reason this team is worth watching this year. Probably the only reason the team will be worth watching next year too. And yet we have people saying that if DT wanted to play him on the 4th line, he can, because he knows best after all dontcha know, even though the team he wanted and agreed to coach continues to slide. On a lot of nights there isn't "a lot of try" or "execution". That's how you get embarrassed by the worst team in the league that's badly shorthanded after a week of rest and practice.

At this point, people should be open to the idea of a change, not going to bat for a coach that hasn't earned it. I get if you want to see what Tippett wants to do with even more talent next year, but how has he earned that? You really want creative players to be handled by Dave effing Tippett? Good god.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

A serious question, b/c I have come across as a dick for the anti-Tippett:

Would you say that the 2009-10 season was a success or not?

The reason I ask is b/c Tip has been on record as saying that there were times during that season when he was asked why he put Vern Fiddler on a line with Doan and Lombardi.

Fiddler is 10x better hockey player than Chips

Fiddler has hit 30pts twice and has been over 20 every year save 1 (not including strike year)

Chipchura has hit 20 just once and it was just 20. Every year he's just in the teens. There are a 1000 guys just like him across the league, a expendable AHLer that gets some NHL minutes.

Fiddler was a good at what he did, and a good PKer. Chips isn't good at anything, he's not a good forechecker, he's not a good PKer, isn't a scorer, doesn't pass well, is generally considered a turnover machine.

I'm at a loss to those that are defending having Chips as the 6th attacker, it makes zero sense. No other coach would put Chips out as the 6th attacker.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Previous success is a few miles back in the rearview mirror.

His loyalty to "his guys" is undying and is one of his major faults. Chipchura is one of those guys. So was Moss, and Campbell. Tippett absolutely loves to talk about how he is in the "business of winning" as he crutches on his handpicked veterans that consistently don't get it done. The turtling with a one goal lead is as pathetic as it is predictable. It doesn't matter if Chipchura gives you a 5% better chance to win the game on any given night if that comes at the expense of a player like Martinook being thrown out there. Chipchura (hopefully) has no future with this franchise, Martinook does. Anyone that disagrees with this notion should just raise their hand so I can ignore you forever. It's a fundamental and inescapable concept rebuilding teams have to deal with.

This year, the kids have totally embarrassed everybody and forced their way into icetime. In your parlance, it's pretty clear that they are "making the play" consistently when everybody is struggling and have been struggling the last few years. The core of the roster hasn't had much turnover aside from Yandle. Everyone crowing about how the roster is "overachieving" has forgotten why it's perceived that way to begin with, which is the **** play of everyone else. Nothing has changed. Players just got older, and continue to be ineffective. I half think this was the plan all along - to tank with dignity and 'good guys' around the kids for Matthews. If so, mission accomplished. The only problem was telling the bubble folks they meant to make the playoffs.

The kids, with their youthful rushes that ignore Tippett dump-n-chase dogma and their troll goals, are the only reason this team is worth watching this year. Probably the only reason the team will be worth watching next year too. And yet we have people saying that if DT wanted to play him on the 4th line, he can, because he knows best after all dontcha know, even though the team he wanted and agreed to coach continues to slide. On a lot of nights there isn't "a lot of try" or "execution". That's how you get embarrassed by the worst team in the league that's badly shorthanded after a week of rest and practice.

At this point, people should be open to the idea of a change, not going to bat for a coach that hasn't earned it. I get if you want to see what Tippett wants to do with even more talent next year, but how has he earned that? You really want creative players to be handled by Dave effing Tippett? Good god.

Doesn't matter - do you consider 09-10 season a success? Because if so, and Tippett is doing exactly what he did with players like Winnik, Fiddler, even Nokelainen, then you are saying that you hate Tippett's coaching moves for the same reasons that you like them. That hate is already brought on certain players. Part of the difference is depth and talent. Talent is coming. Overwhelming those talented players is not what we want to be in the business of... yet.

 

[XX]

Doesn't matter - do you consider 09-10 season a success? Because if so, and Tippett is doing exactly what he did with players like Winnik, Fiddler, even Nokelainen, then you are saying that you hate Tippett's coaching moves for the same reasons that you like them.

The Coyotes now are in a slightly different situation compared to 09-10.

I don't know why anyone would willingly volunteer such a thing as an argument.

 

[BUX7PHX]

The Coyotes now are in a slightly different situation compared to 09-10.

I don't know why anyone would willingly volunteer such a thing as an argument.

Different player situation, yes.

Different ideals of coaching, no.

Any time I bring up something that clearly hits a nerve, your immediate response is, "Why would you bring that up?" It is b/c once again, you have contradicted yourself. If Tip operates with players and coaching in the same manner as he did when successful (making certain line combos and testing them, responses during and after games, having players whom he trusts in) and you trusted in that, and now you are harping on it when it is negative, then all you are doing is contradicting yourself over and over.

Just trust.

 

[XX]

Different ideals of coaching, no.

That's the problem. The situation has changed dramatically. He's no longer coaching a scrappy team full of veterans with nothing to lose, yet he treats the roster the same way. You bring up 09-10 and think that's some sort of "gotcha" question when the two situations are completely different.

You'd have to be a really silly person to think that a playoff team or contender should be coached the same way as a bottom five rebuilding team. It's the Chip over Martinook problem.

I don't know where you percieve contradictions. I liked Tippett's approach when it brought results and was appropriate for the situation. I'm free to dislike his approach when organizational needs dictate a change in style. Do you not understand the concept of context?

 

[hbk]

If the kids weren't playing well and getting significant minutes in all situations I would understand the outrage. Being in the playoff conversation is gravy. Truth be told I'm more upset that we don't have prime draft odds than I am about the team performance. Team has done much better than expected thus far.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

His loyalty to "his guys" is undying and is one of his major faults. Chipchura is one of those guys. So was Moss, and Campbell.

(Campbell? Whoever was *he* stealing time from? Offensive juggernaut Brandon Gormley? - who just got his first point in 22 games for the Avs and has been scratched ever since? well done, lad)

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Truth be told I'm more upset that we don't have prime draft odds than I am about the team performance.

We had prime draft odds last year and look where it got us...

I'm probably one of the few people around here who could care less if we got Matthews or not. My concern is that we make progress, not that we win. If I can go to games and see players playing better than they did the last game I was at, then I'm satisfied.

 

[hbk]

We had prime draft odds last year and look where it got us...

I'm probably one of the few people around here who could care less if we got Matthews or not. My concern is that we make progress, not that we win. If I can go to games and see players playing better than they did the last game I was at, then I'm satisfied.

It landed us the next Ron Francis according to Craig Button. Should be smiling because of last year. There was a payoff.

I was ecstatic with last season and the end result. We made the right call and came away with a great asset and set this franchise up for a prosperous future. It was the most anti-Tippett move Maloney could have made.

We have made progress. Better than expected. Faster than most of us thought possible.

I'm judging Tippett on his ability to integrate youth into the lineup. Wins and losses are part of it but not the main part. This season anyway. I get the comments on competitiveness. It's more a part of the equation than our record at this point. With the amount of youth in the lineup you are going to have peaks and valleys where things click and mental where we likely couldn't beat a pee wee team. That's the way it goes. Next year when more youth is served expect peaks and valley again.

It's the long term trend that matters.

 

[Mosby]

All this Chip talk... There is exactly 1 (one!) regular who sees less ice-time than Kyle Chipchura. That player is Steve Downie.

 

[Jakey53]

It landed us the next Ron Francis according to Craig Button. Should be smiling because of last year. There was a payoff.

I was ecstatic with last season and the end result. We made the right call and came away with a great asset and set this franchise up for a prosperous future. It was the most anti-Tippett move Maloney could have made.

We have made progress. Better than expected. Faster than most of us thought possible.

I'm judging Tippett on his ability to integrate youth into the lineup. Wins and losses are part of it but not the main part. This season anyway. I get the comments on competitiveness. It's more a part of the equation than our record at this point. With the amount of youth in the lineup you are going to have peaks and valleys where things click and mental where we likely couldn't beat a pee wee team. That's the way it goes. Next year when more youth is served expect peaks and valley again.

It's the long term trend that matters.

You are 100% correct. I have been saying this since the season started. Rebuilding takes time, a lot of patience, and even then success is not a given.