The Coaching Thread Part I // Trotz, Torts, Carlyle.. Who will it be?

[theIceWookie]

and Gardiner for the back half too. Phaneuf was brutal down the stretch, but I think unless it was Jesus on skates, anyone would have broken down. the reason why a lot of people are dumping on him is

A: new contract.
B: the captain
C: he didn't rise to the occasion and saved the season

again I think we all have to agree - a lot of the defensive problems of the team wasn't just defense. it was team wide gong-showy.

Yeah I'm not at all saying him disappearing was a good thing. Like far from it.

But like what can you expect when you're team has no depth. Bernier played at a high end level, Reimer actually played very well down the stretch and outside of like a month and a half was playing well. Kessel was 2nd in scoring, and Phaneuf was literally one of the best dman in league up until like March.

But while they were doing that, the rest of the team wasn't doing too much. Our defense was a mess, our scoring depth was absolutely non-existent, our third and fourth lines couldn't do a thing to save their lives.

Where the Leafs were at the end of February was basically the result of Phaneuf, Kessel, Bernier and to some extent JVR basically dragging the rest of the team with them.

I just don't get what people expected to happen? Our depth did nothing to help them, and when they finally couldn't carry on anymore, the house of cards fell.

And it's not like Kessel and Phaneuf have been flippant about the collapse either. Have they shifted blame? Not once have they made excuses.

Sometimes I'm surprised players actually sign extensions to play in Toronto. The abuse they receive is ridiculous osmetimes.

 

[Durrr]

You said "Weber wouldn't do any better in the same position.", which is what I was responding to. He IS in an almost identical situation and he's a Norris candidate while Phaneuf likely won't get a single vote even for #5.



True, but when the going gets tough and you need to save your season, your best players need to be your best players. The collapes weren't all his fault, no, as there are 20 guys on the team, but he was awful during all of them and exacerbated the problems.

But that's just it, Kessel is ONE guy. The past few seasons (except last year with Kadri) have been the exact same. When Kessel slumps, the team slumps. This is because we are a 1 PLAYER team, not even a one line team. Kessel is the only legit core piece we have on forward, we failed to add even a single other player who can carry the team up to this point. The reason this team was able to stay competitive last year is because Kadri was carrying the secondary scoring, and unless he shows that this year was a slump were in a similar position. As I said above, even JVR (who is my favorite leaf) has yet to show he isn't a product of Kessel (him and Kessel went cold at the same times this year).

 

[Daisy Jane]

I personally believe - it's because they understand that we're cranky. and frustrated. and all of it comes from a place of cranky frustration. At the end of the day, we'll still watch, support, cheer the team and I think that speaks volumes, and they appreciate that. (sometimes the attitude comes across wrong at times), but i'd rather have a player who can realise that and wants to be a part of something potentially special.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Fans should boycott their team if they're unhappy with it's direction.

That sounds kind of overly simplistic.

What if I like the implications of one move, but dislike another?

 

[Joey Hoser]

But that's just it, Kessel is ONE guy. The past few seasons (except last year with Kadri) have been the exact same. When Kessel slumps, the team slumps. This is because we are a 1 PLAYER team, not even a one line team. Kessel is the only legit core piece we have on forward, we failed to add even a single other player who can carry the team up to this point. The reason this team was able to stay competitive last year is because Kadri was carrying the secondary scoring, and unless he shows that this year was a slump were in a similar position. As I said above, even JVR (who is my favorite leaf) has yet to show he isn't a product of Kessel (him and Kessel went cold at the same times this year).

We were talking about Phaneuf.

I have no beef with Kessel.

 

[theIceWookie]

Nashville is pretty shallow on the offense, Weber was their top scorer if I'm not mistaken. As for the leafs, the problem has, and never will be Kessel. The problem is the team failed to add another 1-2 top end pieces to support him from the get-go. How this team acquired Kessel and declared the rebuild over is one mystery that I'll never understand, even JVR has yet to prove he isn't a product of Kessel like Lupul was. Even if Kessel was Crosby, one player is never enough to build a strong team around. You need 3-4 central guys, this team stopped at Kessel and Dion.

They didn't declare the rebuild over, they just declared Kessel as the centerpiece of it. But I digress, different discussion.

This team can blame it's top players as much as it wants. It's never going to win without adding support players to them. You can't expect to have winning offense if it's run through only one player or even one line. Nor can we continue to rely on top goaltending through the entire year. You need depht.

You said "Weber wouldn't do any better in the same position.", which is what I was responding to. He IS in an almost identical situation and he's a Norris candidate while Phaneuf likely won't get a single vote even for #5.

The whole point of me bringing Weber into the conversation was to show that even if we traded Phaneuf, and somehow replaced him with a better version of him, it wouldn't change anything.

Even if we had a Norris nominee in the place of Phaneuf, nothing would change. The problem isn't with our best dman. It's with the depth behind him and his support. which is pretty non-existant.

In fact, Weber's a great example of the kind of support Phaneuf lacks. Weber is great but talking about him without mentioning his partner is a big disservice to Josi. If we could simply add a Roman Josi to Phaneuf, we'd be in the playoffs.

And that's my whole point. Phaneuf doesn't have the support necessary for a proper defense. Weber isn't Weber without Josi. Phaneuf would be a lot better if we could find him a Josi.

 

[Durrr]

We were talking about Phaneuf.

I have no beef with Kessel.

Dion struggled hard down that stretch but he is in a similar position to Kessel. Dion carried the defense through the start of the season, he was about the only solid player for a couple months. As soon as he started to struggle you saw how truly bad the rest of the core was. Thankfully we actually have help in the organization coming on D, and we have Gardiner/Rielly to look forward to.

 

[Guy Boucher]

would you rather him tell the truth and say:

"kessel doesn't compete hard enough. phanuef is a bonehead. and reimer belongs in the ECHL"?

If he truly thinks that, I doubt he'd go out of his way to give them as much ice-time as is humanly possible (at least in the case of Kessel and Phanuef).

He likely thinks the reason we suck is because Bolland was injured and that he couldn't find more ice-time for Clarkson.

 

[Al14]

Yeah I'm not at all saying him disappearing was a good thing. Like far from it.

But like what can you expect when you're team has no depth. Bernier played at a high end level, Reimer actually played very well down the stretch and outside of like a month and a half was playing well. Kessel was 2nd in scoring, and Phaneuf was literally one of the best dman in league up until like March.

But while they were doing that, the rest of the team wasn't doing too much. Our defense was a mess, our scoring depth was absolutely non-existent, our third and fourth lines couldn't do a thing to save their lives.

Where the Leafs were at the end of February was basically the result of Phaneuf, Kessel, Bernier and to some extent JVR basically dragging the rest of the team with them.

I just don't get what people expected to happen? Our depth did nothing to help them, and when they finally couldn't carry on anymore, the house of cards fell.

And it's not like Kessel and Phaneuf have been flippant about the collapse either. Have they shifted blame? Not once have they made excuses.

Sometimes I'm surprised players actually sign extensions to play in Toronto. The abuse they receive is ridiculous osmetimes.

If they'd just win a damn hockey game, or playoff series, or bring home the Stanley Cup, the fan adoration would be through the roof. If a player can't take the BAD, when they're part of the BAD, then get the hell out of Toronto!

Winners will be rewarded handsomely!!!

 

[theIceWookie]

If they'd just win a damn hockey game, or playoff series, or bring home the Stanley Cup, the fan adoration would be through the roof. If a player can't take the BAD, when they're part of the BAD, then get the hell out of Toronto!

Winners will be rewarded handsomely!!!

Yep, you're exactly what I mean.

People think one to three players can win a cup, and then get all pissy when reality hits.

 

[Joey Hoser]

The whole point of me bringing Weber into the conversation was to show that even if we traded Phaneuf, and somehow replaced him with a better version of him, it wouldn't change anything.

I get your point... I disagree, because Weber is a very similar situation.

Even if we had a Norris nominee in the place of Phaneuf, nothing would change. The problem isn't with our best dman. It's with the depth behind him and his support. which is pretty non-existant.

I don't agree that it was everybody else's fault. I think Phaneuf himself actually played poorly.

In fact, Weber's a great example of the kind of support Phaneuf lacks. Weber is great but talking about him without mentioning his partner is a big disservice to Josi. If we could simply add a Roman Josi to Phaneuf, we'd be in the playoffs.

And that's my whole point. Phaneuf doesn't have the support necessary for a proper defense. Weber isn't Weber without Josi. Phaneuf would be a lot better if we could find him a Josi.

Weber has been Weber his whole career. Josi has a season and half under his belt.

I don't believe for a second that Roman Josi makes us a playoff team.

Honestly, playing with Gunnarson isn't an excuse for underperformance. He's a solid player. Many would argue more dependable than Dion.

 

[Purity*]

And that's my whole point. Phaneuf doesn't have the support necessary for a proper defense. Weber isn't Weber without Josi. Phaneuf would be a lot better if we could find him a Josi.

Josi has become overrated on HFBoards.. He's on the top pairing because he's the best fit to play with Weber, not because he's a "necessary support" for Weber. I'm sure Weber would be perfectly fine with Carl Gunnarsson as his partner.

 

[theIceWookie]

I know... I disagree, because Weber is a very similar situation.

Again, and I don't really see how your missing the point if you think Weber is in a similar situation, he didn't help his team into the playoffs. So how, if he's in a similar situation, would replacing Phaneuf with Weber change anything?

Thereby, maybe Phaneuf is being expected to do too much. If a Norris nominee wouldn't get this team into the playoffs, we're really crucifying Phaneuf for not doing it?

I don't agree that it was everybody else's fault. I think Phaneuf himself actually played poorly.

He played poorly for 20 games. The rest of the season he was Norris level. The guy was plus 21 through 60 games, playing over 24 minutes a game. He had less goals against in 5 on 5 situations than almost all but like 5 dman in the league up to this point. He was playing against the leagues best night in and night out.

You can't play a guy that much without help and expect him to just magically do it all game. That's insanity.

Weber has been Weber his whole career. Josi has a season and half under his belt.

I don't believe for a second that Roman Josi makes us a playoff team.

Honestly, playing with Gunnarson isn't an excuse for underperformance. He's a solid player.l

And who was Weber playing with before Josi? Oh look, Ryan ******** Suter.

And when did his worst season after his rookie year come? Oh look, his first season without Suter when Josi was playing his 2nd season and adapting to the top pairing.

If you honestly think Gunnarsson is a top pairing defensman, and that Phaneuf had proper support, I don't even know what to say.

You can deny it all you want and crucify Phaneuf all you want, but until we actually give Phaneuf a proper top pairing partner, nothing will save this defense. Phaneuf could win Norris trophies for the next 5 years and until he received a defenseman of Josi's ability or better he still wouldn't be doing anything.

Look at the top dman in the league. Outside of Suter, how many top pairing dman have bottom 4 dman as their partner.

Subban? Nope, he's got Markov. McDonagh has Girardi, Letang has Martin and Niskanen, Chara has Seidenberg and Boychuk, Pietraneglo has Shattenkirk and Bouwmeester, Keith has Seabrook.

And you're telling me with a straight face that Phaneuf is to blame.

Sigh...

 

[theIceWookie]

Josi has become overrated on HFBoards.. He's on the top pairing because he's the best fit to play with Weber, not because he's a "necessary support" for Weber. I'm sure Weber would be perfectly fine with Carl Gunnarsson as his partner.

Yeah that's not true.

 

[jimmycarter]

You know who would have the balls to say that? (And also someone making an NHL comeback)????

Mike ****** Keenan

not gonna disagree.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

In My opinion he should come no where near another team again.
Every good player on the Cunucks has the worst year in their careers.

To me the common denominator is the Coach.

they already started regressing 2 years ago ...

 

[TankNationTillDeath]

Phaneuf wasn't just a bad player during our collapse(s), he was our worst player. His ice time dropped dramatically and he was still minus every single game. Same with Kessel, it's not that he broke down, but it is that he (and Bozak) became our worst forwards during the collapse(s). That is why no other team has had collapses like ours, because they don't have their team built on a top forward who is the most easily intimated and a dop d man who actually does break down, frequently.

Gunnar is also a brutal re-signing. When is the last time you saw him look a player in the eyes or push someone out of the front of the net... in the regular season at that. Playoffs are a completely different story. We only have a handful of guys built for playoffs and I bet they want to gtfo of Toronto.

Nonis should be fired. Carlyle needs to be fired. The rebuild someone mentioned earlier, described as trading our notoriously collapse conducive core needs to be done. Meanwhile, poach the scouts of top markets and pay them big dollars to take advantage of the fact we do have the most money at our disposal. Build the farm system because we have no prospects ready to make a significant impact to the NHL club even though they'll go deep in their playoffs. Re-build should be done in 2 years, and, we may even get a top 5 or 2 in the next 2 drafts.

Tank Nation.

 

[theIceWookie]

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/playerusagecharts

People should really look at this and play around with.

No defenseman playing more than 60 games in the ENTIRE LEAGUE played harder competition than Phaneuf or Gunnarsson. Nor did any defenseman in the entire league who played more than 60 games have lower than 40 percent offensive zone starts EXCEPT for Phaneuf and Gunnarsson.

The notion that Phaneuf is to be blamed for the Leafs collapse is bordering on hilarious. The guy literally gets asked to do more than any defenseman in the entire league, actually plays well for 3/4's of the season and when it finally gets to a point where he can't carry the defense by himself, the house of cards collapses. And then he gets solely crucified for it.

Gotta love Leaf fans.

I wonder what they'd say if Orr was on the Leafs? Probably talk about how he should be traded since he wheels too much.

 

[theIceWookie]

Phaneuf wasn't just a bad player during our collapse(s), he was our worst player. His ice time dropped dramatically and he was still minus every single game. Same with Kessel, it's not that he broke down, but it is that he (and Bozak) became our worst forwards during the collapse(s). That is why no other team has had collapses like ours, because they don't have their team built on a top forward who is the most easily intimated and a dop d man who actually does break down, frequently.

Gunnar is also a brutal re-signing. When is the last time you saw him look a player in the eyes or push someone out of the front of the net... in the regular season at that. Playoffs are a completely different story. We only have a handful of guys built for playoffs and I bet they want to gtfo of Toronto.

Nonis should be fired. Carlyle needs to be fired. The rebuild someone mentioned earlier, described as trading our notoriously collapse conducive core needs to be done. Meanwhile, poach the scouts of top markets and pay them big dollars to take advantage of the fact we do have the most money at our disposal. Build the farm system because we have no prospects ready to make a significant impact to the NHL club even though they'll go deep in their playoffs. Re-build should be done in 2 years, and, we may even get a top 5 or 2 in the next 2 drafts.

Tank Nation.

No it's because they recognize that depth is usually crucial to winning.

An 8 horse cart usually requires more than just 2 horses to pull...

Teams can't put everything on the backs of four playes and expect to keep winning.

 

[jimmycarter]

Saying "I'm mystified"? Come on.

carlyle knows exactly what is wrong with this team, but he isn't gonna pull a clown show for the media. keep it in house and to shanahan only.

lots of dead weight on this team. i think the coach is the last person that should be replaced, but that doesn't mean i don't think he doesn't needs to go.

 

[leafs in five]

carlyle knows exactly what is wrong with this team, but he isn't gonna pull a clown show for the media. keep it in house and to shanahan only.

lots of dead weight on this team

list of things wrong with the Leafs, by Randy C.:

1. don't compete hard enough!

 

[theIceWookie]

I personally believe - it's because they understand that we're cranky. and frustrated. and all of it comes from a place of cranky frustration. At the end of the day, we'll still watch, support, cheer the team and I think that speaks volumes, and they appreciate that. (sometimes the attitude comes across wrong at times), but i'd rather have a player who can realise that and wants to be a part of something potentially special.

That's a good reason. Great post.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Again, and I don't really see how your missing the point if you think Weber is in a similar situation, he didn't help his team into the playoffs. So how, if he's in a similar situation, would replacing Phaneuf with Weber change anything?

I don't believe Weber would play terribly down the stretch. There's no reason to think he would.

Thereby, maybe Phaneuf is being expected to do too much. If a Norris nominee wouldn't get this team into the playoffs, we're really crucifying Phaneuf for not doing it?

Expecting him not to **** the bed at important times is asking too much?

I'm not trying to cruficy him. I'm just saying what I think happened.

He played poorly for 20 games. The rest of the season he was Norris level. The guy was plus 21 through 60 games, playing over 24 minutes a game. He had less goals against in 5 on 5 situations than almost all but like 5 dman in the league up to this point. He was playing against the leagues best night in and night out.

Was not playing at Norris level. He was playing as well as he should but it wasn't Norris level.

You can't play a guy that much without help and expect him to just magically do it all game. That's insanity.

Again, not expecting him to "magically do it all game", just don't **** the bed at important times.

And who was Weber playing with before Josi? Oh look, Ryan ******** Suter.

And when did his worst season after his rookie year come? Oh look, his first season without Suter when Josi was playing his 2nd season and adapting to the top pairing.

Worst season? He had 28pts in 48 games, which is pretty much exactly his career pace.

If you honestly think Gunnarsson is a top pairing defensman, and that Phaneuf had proper support, I don't even know what to say.

I didn't call Gunnarsson a top pairing defenceman, I called him solid and reliable and not an excuse for other's poor play.

You can deny it all you want and crucify Phaneuf all you want, but until we actually give Phaneuf a proper top pairing partner, nothing will save this defense.

Obviously I agree.

And you're telling me with a straight face that Phaneuf is to blame.

Sigh...

I already said I'm not soley blaming Phaneuf for the collapse. Lots of blame to go around. Phaneuf is one of them, but he just gets an extra wag of the finger from me because he's supposed to be the last guy to fold under the pressure. That's what I'm saying. Quit pretending I'm saying things I'm not.

 

[Jacob8hockey*]

Carlyle is getting fired because the players can't play. I am not saying he is the best coach but I find the players more at fault than Carlyle and would rather see part of the core leave than Carlyle

 

[mikebel111*]

Carlyle is getting fired because the players can't play. I am not saying he is the best coach but I find the players more at fault than Carlyle and would rather see part of the core leave than Carlyle

Randy is s joke and his system is brutal. I agree we have some lazy players on the team but his system is total anti possession.
Get rid of him