The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 6)

[CanadienShark]

Please make your case that he is a top 10 goalie ? Do you have the stats to prove it ?

Stats don't prove a whole lot. Stats would "prove" that Varlamov is a bad goalie, when in fact he's a very good one. That's what I can't stand - people look at stats, but don't actually watch games, and suddenly think they know everything.

 

[Roulin]

It's funny considering you are the one using 8 games of one season to say that he's inconsistent

I never did any such thing.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

What I have gotten out of this thread is:

Price is a top goalie even though the numbers say otherwise.
His playoff futility should be ignored since his D stinks.
Don't compare him to other goalies because they have better teams.
Although other goalies have achieved more (like won Cups, Vezinas, etc) and put up better numbers, Price is still somehow better.
But Emelin got hurt.
Price faces tougher shots than other goalies.

That about it?

 

[CanadienShark]

I guess you failed logic in university.

First you state that labeling a goalie top 10 is subjective and can't be proven with stats and then you ask me to name 10-15 goalies that are better than Price.

If you don't want me to use stats what should I use?

His choice of haberdashery? His choice in underwear? Or maybe his choice in women?

Last year behind a solid defence Price came up with less than stellar results. He was near the bottom of the league for goaltending results. I've been generous. I don't claim he is at the bottom of the pack. I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.

But his regular season stats can be forgiven if his playoff record was slightly better. Nota lot just a little better.

Apparently you failed reading comprehension in elementary school. He claimed it was subjective, then asked you to name 10 that YOU THINK are better.

 

[Compile]

I say next game's line-up is:

Pacio - Price - Briere
Gally - Eller - Gally
Borque - Plek - Bournival
Moen - White - Diaz

Gorges -Subban
Markov - Tinordi
Boullion - Beaulieu

David Desharnais (in net)
Budjai

Seeing how some people think Price has to "win/steal" a game for the Habs, might as well give him the opportunity to do so.

If the team all around is strong enough, a goalie doesn't need to "steal" a game. That's a poor excuse for a mediocre team. If the team infront of any goalie is actually good, the netminder doesn't need to "steal" anything.
re:see Detriot, New Jersey.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

Stats don't prove a whole lot. Stats would "prove" that Varlamov is a bad goalie, when in fact he's a very good one. That's what I can't stand - people look at stats, but don't actually watch games, and suddenly think they know everything.

So the answer to his question is "no".

 

[CanadienShark]

I know the stats on Price in the playoffs, I've seen them posted numerous times by some here and on CBC during the playoffs. The year Boston won the Stanley Cup Montreal was the only team to take Boston to seven games. In that series Price played fantastic. I don't care about the numbers, Price played great! Piss and moan all you want, it was a great series. Last season against Ottawa, I agree game 1 was a bad game. Price then bounced back and played great after that. Losing Eller the way they did and the refs blown calls cemented that series. Our D is weak, why can't people see it. When is the last time we had a stay at home defenceman is his prime. Its been awhile. Gill was nice but out of his prime. Does Price have room for improvement? Absolutely, but to pin the loses on him year after year just isn't fair.

Actually, so did Tampa and Vancouver. I believe it was a record for most game 7's before.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Players and coaches say a lot of things.

They've been consistent on certain players, Price being one of them.

Is this where you trash the entire team to prop up Price?

No, this is where I have another laugh at that ridiculous statement and make my exit for a while.

Carry on.

 

[Agnostic]

No one can deny that Price led the Habs to a division title last season and a conference title not long ago. I'd give him every opportunity to come through again, so I ignore the open-mouthed carp who constantly snap at him.

last year a top 5 offense and a top 10 defense led the 34th best goaltender to the division title, Price was a passenger. Then he followed up by letting his team down in the playoffs beyond what they could overcome.

He has at best one more opportunity to come through, and if not he'll be shipped elsewhere, he's totally on notice by this organization that he must get better to stay in Montreal.

 

[Roulin]

It's funny considering you are the one using 8 games of one season to say that he's inconsistent

With the 2010 season and the first 30 games of 2012 until Emelin got hurt, Price's SV is .922% over 102 games. Adding the 2011 last place finish brings it down to .920SV%.

The 2010 season + the 2011 season = 920SV%
The 2011 season + the first 30 games of 2012 season = .918Sv%.
2010-2011 + the first 30 games of 2012 = .920SV%

Looks pretty consistent to me.

edit: second attempt, errors in first.

My results for bolded, everything from nhl.com:

2011-12
1914 shots
1754 saves

2012-13, the first 30 games
803 shots
734 saves

Total
2717 shots
2488 saves
.916 save %

 

[JohnLennon]

What I have gotten out of this thread is:

Price is a top goalie even though the numbers say otherwise.
His playoff futility should be ignored since his D stinks.
Don't compare him to other goalies because they have better teams.
Although other goalies have achieved more (like won Cups, Vezinas, etc) and put up better numbers, Price is still somehow better.
But Emelin got hurt.
Price faces tougher shots than other goalies.

That about it?

Do the numbers really say otherwise? I mean, comparing his numbers to Rinne's, sure Rinne had one outstanding season at .930, but the rest of their numbers are really quite comparable. Price has actually played more games than Pekka Rinne, too, and is four years younger than him. I'm willing to bet every GM in the league will take Price over Rinne, every day of the week.

Really, Price's numbers are on par with every top goalie in the NHL. And what's more, is that he is one of the youngest starters in the league (while also having some of the most games played). Very impressive numbers, all things considered. The only starter that is far and away better than Price at this point is Lundqvist.

And this is only looking at the numbers, by the way, just like you said.

 

[JoelWarlord]

His playoff futility should be ignored since his D stinks.

By playoff futility you're referencing W-L stats with no context, right? He played his first playoff series at age 20. Second playoff series was a gongshow where we got blown out by Boston and were woefully outmatched and blew up the team afterwards. If you're going to pin those on Price I don't know what to tell you. 2010-11 we took the eventual cup champs to 7 games, with a generational performance from Thomas at the other end. We had 3 chances to end it in OT, and nobody could score for us. To blame Price for our loss that playoff basically means you're expecting him to play like Halak did in the 2010 playoffs every year for the rest of his career.

Last year I'll give you. He was bad. Still doesn't mean that he's the entire reason we lost or that he's no good in the playoffs. There's a difference between "he can't get it done in the playoffs" and "he had two mediocre playoffs before he was old enough to buy beer in the US, and since then has had one good series and one bad one".

 

[CanadienShark]

So the answer to his question is "no".

Well when his question is horribly flawed, that's correct, I don't have stats to back up anything. Stats are meaningless without context. Can you get that through your head?

 

[Compile]

What I have gotten out of this thread is:

Price is a top goalie even though the numbers say otherwise.
His playoff futility should be ignored since his D stinks.
Don't compare him to other goalies because they have better teams.
Although other goalies have achieved more (like won Cups, Vezinas, etc) and put up better numbers, Price is still somehow better.
But Emelin got hurt.
Price faces tougher shots than other goalies.

That about it?

What I've gotten from every one of your posts.

"I'm right, everyone else is wrong."

 

[JohnLennon]

What I've gotten from every one of your posts.

"I'm right, everyone else is wrong."

Nailed it.

 

[Price My Man Crush]

I know the stats on Price in the playoffs, I've seen them posted numerous times by some here and on CBC during the playoffs. The year Boston won the Stanley Cup Montreal was the only team to take Boston to seven games. In that series Price played fantastic. I don't care about the numbers, Price played great! Piss and moan all you want, it was a great series. Last season against Ottawa, I agree game 1 was a bad game. Price then bounced back and played great after that. Losing Eller the way they did and the refs blown calls cemented that series. Our D is weak, why can't people see it. When is the last time we had a stay at home defenceman is his prime. Its been awhile. Gill was nice but out of his prime. Does Price have room for improvement? Absolutely, but to pin the loses on him year after year just isn't fair.

I'm sorry but Tampa Bay and Vancouver both brought Boston to a game 7.

fleury has a cup, I wouldn't trade Price for him. Emery played 18 games last year and had 1 loss, would you trade Price for him?

I didn't know cups are won solely by goalies. Niemi and Crawford have cups playing for the best team in the nhl the years they won it.

Exactly Andy. People need to know that it's not because you won the Stanley Cup that you're now an elite goaltender. Michael Leighton went further in the playoffs than Carey Price and even Henrik Lundqvist, does that mean he's better than them?

Yes really. Check out nhl.com ... you might learn a lot there.

NHL.com has the absolute truth on goalies? Great!

He does not have a good playoff resume. Everybody and their mother know that Price's playoff performances have been lackluster.

But was it his own fault? You do know that hockey is a team sport, right? The guy was freaking 20 and 21 years old the first two times he went in the playoffs. During his first two seasons in professional hockey. They gave him to the lions.

What I have gotten out of this thread is:

Price is a top goalie even though the numbers say otherwise.
His playoff futility should be ignored since his D stinks.
Don't compare him to other goalies because they have better teams.
Although other goalies have achieved more (like won Cups, Vezinas, etc) and put up better numbers, Price is still somehow better.
But Emelin got hurt.
Price faces tougher shots than other goalies.

That about it?

Don't tell me Ward, Fleury, Niemi or even Crawford are better goalies because they won the Stanley Cup...please.

Do the numbers really say otherwise? I mean, comparing his numbers to Rinne's, sure Rinne had one outstanding season at .930, but the rest of their numbers are really quite comparable. Price has actually played more games than Pekka Rinne, too, and is four years younger than him. I'm willing to bet every GM in the league will take Price over Rinne, every day of the week.

Really, Price's numbers are on par with every top goalie in the NHL. And what's more, is that he is one of the youngest starters in the league (while also having some of the most games played). Very impressive numbers, all things considered. The only starter that is far and away better than Price at this point is Lundqvist.

And this is only looking at the numbers, by the way, just like you said.

And Jonathan Quick?

 

[JohnLennon]

And Jonathan Quick?

I wouldn't say so.

 

[Price My Man Crush]

I wouldn't say so.

And why wouldn't say so? Jonathan Quick has been unbelievable the last three years.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

What I have gotten out of this thread is:

Price is a top goalie even though the numbers say otherwise.
His playoff futility should be ignored since his D stinks.
Don't compare him to other goalies because they have better teams.
Although other goalies have achieved more (like won Cups, Vezinas, etc) and put up better numbers, Price is still somehow better.
But Emelin got hurt.
Price faces tougher shots than other goalies.

That about it?

Then you cleary have problem with reading comprehension.

 

[JohnLennon]

And why wouldn't say so? Jonathan Quick has been unbelievable the last three years.

Well I did say "far and away" better than Price. I think Quick is better than Price at this point, mainly because of his outstanding performances in the playoffs as of late. I also think Price had a better regular season than Quick last year.

 

[Flyinghab]

Alright so my bad on Tampa and Vancouver taking Boston to seven games as well. Price was still stellar in that series.

 

[Compile]

People need to know that it's not because you won the Stanley Cup that you're now an elite goaltender. Michael Leighton went further in the playoffs than Carey Price and even Henrik Lundqvist, does that mean he's better than them?

What are you talking about?

Of course Leighton is better then Lundqvist and countless others, this is completely undeniable.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

Keep moving the goal posts.

 

[Whitesnake]

But we have NHL players and coaches who for the past few years have named him a top five goalie. It's not like it's totally without foundation.

Not totally. But not as much as people would love to think. I feel like it's just an opinion like we have. It's not because you are a professionnal that you know everything and are always right. Tons of opinions have been said by GM's, coaches and players and we keep dissing them. But then, when it's to praise one of ours, well then, NOW they are right. Fine. But I know that for me, it's just one opinion amongst all the others. Which do mean that he is a name to be mentioned. As even the biggest Price haters would often agree.

Well we've seen what a great team can do for a guy like Brian Elliot. It makes a difference. As for numbers... again, tough to base it solely on this for goalies because again 1. The stats aren't cumulative and 2. Team D can have a major impact.

You need to stop with this one and only example. So we've seen it...and then we didn't see it as Elliott went right back at sucking last year. Didn't they have the same team? So we see what a great team does to a goalie...but unless there's such bad faith going on...why can't we reverse the role and ALSO acknowledge that a great goalie also improves a team from good to great. Extremely rarely will you see in a Cup finals a non-worthy goalie makes it. Michael Leighton is NOT the norm. Nor is Elliott. Most of the other goalies have proven to be good to great. But at one point, the system does so much. I mean, we were being told that Halak wasn't that great finally in the playoffs, that it was Martin's system with ALL those shots from the red line that made it easy for Halak. But then in the 3rd round...suddenly, system wasn't there? Or was it Halak who was dead and didn't have anymore miracles to pull? And we weren't scoring?

Anyway, this is going in circle. Yes, our team isn't stacked on D and we don't have the greatest overall team. But Price HAS to be better. And no matter what WE think, they freakin fired the goalie coach. They themselves said that they hope Price would play better. And Price himself said that he has to play better.

Honestly, everybody agrees, from the haters, to the lovers, to the organization to Price himself.....

 

[Whitesnake]

What are you talking about?

Of course Leighton is better then Lundqvist and countless others, this is completely undeniable.

This is where the "debate" derails. I mean, EVERYBODY understands that and yet people take the time to try to prove a point that isn't needed to be proven. By the way, we also know that Gilbert Dionne was not a better hockey player than his bro Marcel just because he won a Cup....

Now, with the obvious being said, I will never know why people uses something that is NOT the norm to try to prove a point. Most of the goalies that won or went to the finals have proven to be legitimate great goalies. The ones that didn't prove that are exceptions. You don't prove a point with exceptions.