The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 6)

[Compile]

Don't you know? it's the defence's fault.

Correct. Price was taking a shift off from playing a full 2 mins on the point of the PP. He got an assist too.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

But your entire post is misleading. Since 2010-2011 season, which was about 167 regular season games, Price stats were not less than stellar, in fact over 167 games in two and 2/3rd of season Price's SV% was .920%.

920% is not less than stellar. It's a number one goaltenders numbers. In fact, your whole less than stellar argument comes down to 8 ****ing games, from the day Emelin got hurt.

8 games represent 5 % of the 167 games he's played since 2010. Essentially you are using the performance over 5% of those games to trash on Price. Not only that, but there is strong date to suggest that the poor performance over those 8 games isn't the result of an individual meltdown.

Also should be mentioned that he did that with one team that he dragged into the playoffs and another that was a last place team.

Anyways, none of that is really important now. Bottom line is we'll see how this season shakes out. So far Price has been solid in the first two games and our D has been good in one and terrible in another. Should be interesting to keep track of things this year. I really hope Price is good because we're going to need him to be.

 

[Roulin]

But your entire post is misleading. Since 2010-2011 season, which was about 167 regular season games, Price stats were not less than stellar, in fact over 167 games in two and 2/3rd of season Price's SV% was .920%.

920% is not less than stellar. It's a number one goaltenders numbers. In fact, your whole less than stellar argument comes down to 8 ****ing games, from the day Emelin got hurt.

8 games represent 5 % of the 167 games he's played since 2010. Essentially you are using the performance over 5% of those games to trash on Price. Not only that, but there is strong date to suggest that the poor performance over those 8 games isn't the result of an individual meltdown.

Only 9 goalkeepers in 2011-2012 who played more than 30 games posted higher than a .920SV%.
Only 10 goalkeepers in 2010-2011 who played more than 30 games posted higher than a .920SV% (Price was one of those goalies).
Only 11 keeprs in 2012-2013 who played more than 20 games posted a higher than a 920SV%

It's no accident that you've decided to present numbers starting in 2010. IMO that's part of what's worrisome: that Price was so good in 2010-11, that his results have dropped off so much since. I want to believe that, yeah, 26 is not all that old for a goalie, that there's plenty of potential for improvement. The fact that he hit a peak 3 seasons ago and hasn't been as good since doesn't seem to support that optimism.

 

[Flyinghab]

I know the stats on Price in the playoffs, I've seen them posted numerous times by some here and on CBC during the playoffs. The year Boston won the Stanley Cup Montreal was the only team to take Boston to seven games. In that series Price played fantastic. I don't care about the numbers, Price played great! Piss and moan all you want, it was a great series. Last season against Ottawa, I agree game 1 was a bad game. Price then bounced back and played great after that. Losing Eller the way they did and the refs blown calls cemented that series. Our D is weak, why can't people see it. When is the last time we had a stay at home defenceman is his prime. Its been awhile. Gill was nice but out of his prime. Does Price have room for improvement? Absolutely, but to pin the loses on him year after year just isn't fair.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

I guess you failed logic in university.

First you state that labeling a goalie top 10 is subjective and can't be proven with stats and then you ask me to name 10-15 goalies that are better than Price.

If you don't want me to use stats what should I use?

His choice of haberdashery? His choice in underwear? Or maybe his choice in women?

Last year behind a solid defence Price came up with less than stellar results. He was near the bottom of the league for goaltending results. I've been generous. I don't claim he is at the bottom of the pack. I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.

But his regular season stats can be forgiven if his playoff record was slightly better. Nota lot just a little better.

Please, I know Price sucked in the 2nd half of last year but don't even dare to pretend that our defense was SOLID, especially in that same second half.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's no accident that you've decided to present numbers starting in 2010. IMO that's part of what's worrisome: that Price was so good in 2010-11, that his results have dropped off so much since. I want to believe that, yeah, 26 is not all that old for a goalie, that there's plenty of potential for improvement. The fact that he hit a peak 3 seasons ago and hasn't been as good since doesn't seem to support that optimism.

I don't think he was any worse in 2011-12 than he was the previous year... just had a horrible team in front of him. Last season he played the same -very well until the last 8 games of the season.

Three straight years of solid play minus a horrendous two weeks that just happens to coincide with the loss of Emelin. I don't think that this was totally coincidence (though I do think that Price was terrible against the Leafs.)

And why wouldn't you start from 2010-2011? That's when he becomes the full time starter and starts 72 games. Why wouldn't you look at the last three seasons to get an idea of what kind of starter he is?

 

[Sorinth]

I guess you failed logic in university.

First you state that labeling a goalie top 10 is subjective and can't be proven with stats and then you ask me to name 10-15 goalies that are better than Price.

If you don't want me to use stats what should I use?

His choice of haberdashery? His choice in underwear? Or maybe his choice in women?

Last year behind a solid defence Price came up with less than stellar results. He was near the bottom of the league for goaltending results. I've been generous. I don't claim he is at the bottom of the pack. I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.

But his regular season stats can be forgiven if his playoff record was slightly better. Nota lot just a little better.

I would suggest you do what most people do and watch the game instead of looking up the boxscore.

The fact that you're essentially refusing to name who you think is better than Price shows that you know you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Andy]

It's no accident that you've decided to present numbers starting in 2010. IMO that's part of what's worrisome: that Price was so good in 2010-11, that his results have dropped off so much since. I want to believe that, yeah, 26 is not all that old for a goalie, that there's plenty of potential for improvement. The fact that he hit a peak 3 seasons go and hasn't been as good since doesn't seem to support that optimism.

Again misleading...

-Yes Price posted a .923SV% on a 6th place team in 2010.

-He then posted a 916SV% on a last place team in 2011...are you really ready to blame his SV% only his individual performance alone? 916SV% is pretty impressive for a goaltender who played behind a defense consisting of Subban, Gill (who was later traded), Gorges, Kaberle, Weber, a young Emelin and a young Diaz, two d-men who hadn't played a single game on NA ice until that year

-Then he posted a 916SV% in 30 games until Emelin got hurt last season. Now you'll say that this is proof that he has been average. However, like you said about 2010 being the outlier bringing all his stats up, two back-to-back games in March last season where the Habs let in 13 goals brought his SV% down by .008, which is significant. Without those 2 games, Price had posted a .924SV% in 28 of the 30 games that Emelin got injured.

Now if you maintain your argument about 2010 being the outlier and skewing the stats, then you have you admit that those 2 games skew the stats until Price's 8 bad game stretch. If you do, then you see that .924 is not less than stellar, it's actually very good and just a little higher than the average SV% he put over 167 games until Emelin got hurt.

Now if you're not willing to allow the removal of 2 games, then I don't see why we shouldn't take into account the 2010 season. When you do, you realize that a .920Sv% over the last 167 games until Emelin got hurt, which is when Price's "meltdown" began, is not less than stellar.

The fact is people are using 8 games to crap on Price, which says more of his detractors than it does of Price.

 

[Andy]

Please, I know Price sucked in the 2nd half of last year but don't even dare to pretend that our defense was SOLID, especially in that same second half.

It wasn't even a half-season, it was 8 games.

8/38 starts = 21%
half a season = 50%
21%=/= 50%

 

[Andy]

I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.
.

Peter Budaj's sample size is small and he generally plays against weaker opposition.

Budaj in the last two seasons hasn't even played as many games as Price played last year.

In every season Budaj's has played more than 20 games, his SV% has been worse than Carey Price's worst year.

I don't know even why I have to say this, it's such a stupid argument.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

It wasn't even a half-season, it was 8 games.

8/38 starts = 21%
half a season = 50%
21%=/= 50%

Well, yeah, I didn't mean he sucked the 19 last games.. just saying that he did well in the first half as in more consistent and the 2nd half, he was less consistent. I didn't check from which games exactly things got worst but it was closer to the end of the reg. calendar.

 

[Habz2006]

I would suggest you do what most people do and watch the game instead of looking up the boxscore.

The fact that you're essentially refusing to name who you think is better than Price shows that you know you don't have a leg to stand on.

In no particular order.....

Rinne
Backstrom
Quick
Lunqvist
Crawford
Niemi
Rask
Howard
Anderson
Bobrovski

 

[Andy]

Well, yeah, I didn't mean he sucked the 19 last games.. just saying that he did well in the first half as in more consistent and the 2nd half, he was less consistent. I didn't check from which games exactly things got worst but it was closer to the end of the reg. calendar.

No I know you didnt mean it. I just use your as a segue into those numbers.

 

[Roulin]

Again misleading...

-Yes Price posted a .923SV% on a 6th place team in 2010.

-He then posted a 916SV% on a last place team in 2011...are you really ready to blame his SV% only his individual performance alone? 916SV% is pretty impressive for a goaltender who played behind a defense consisting of Subban, Gill (who was later traded), Gorges, Kaberle, Weber, a young Emelin and a young Diaz, two d-men who hadn't played a single game on NA ice until that year

-Then he posted a 916SV% in 30 games until Emelin got hurt last season. Now you'll say that this is proof that he has been average. However, like you said about 2010 being the outlier bringing all his stats up, two back-to-back games in March last season where the Habs let in 13 goals brought his SV% down by .008, which is significant. Without those 2 games, Price had posted a .924SV% in 28 of the 30 games that Emelin got injured.

Now if you maintain your argument about 2010 being the outlier and skewing the stats, then you have you admit that those 2 games skew the stats until Price's 8 bad game stretch. If you do, then you see that .924 is not less than stellar, it's actually very good and just a little higher than the average SV% he put over 167 games until Emelin got hurt.

Now if you're not willing to allow the removal of 2 games, then I don't see why we shouldn't take into account the 2010 season. When you do, you realize that a .920Sv% over the last 167 games until Emelin got hurt, which is when Price's "meltdown" began, is not less than stellar.

The fact is people are using 8 games to crap on Price, which says more of his detractors than it does of Price.

I'm not calling 2010-11 an outlier that distorts numbers. I really do think Price was that good. By eye, my memory of watching his games that season would fit with those numbers. He hasn't been as good and as consistent since.

I'm sure you can see the difference between looking for trends and handpicking the games you don't like.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

I guess you failed logic in university.

First you state that labeling a goalie top 10 is subjective and can't be proven with stats and then you ask me to name 10-15 goalies that are better than Price.

If you don't want me to use stats what should I use?

His choice of haberdashery? His choice in underwear? Or maybe his choice in women?

Last year behind a solid defence Price came up with less than stellar results. He was near the bottom of the league for goaltending results. I've been generous. I don't claim he is at the bottom of the pack. I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.

But his regular season stats can be forgiven if his playoff record was slightly better. Nota lot just a little better.

Same thing can be said about Quick, Halak, Crawford, Hiller.. I dunno why you like to use stats from a shortened season to make you evaluation on Price.

Still waiting for your list of the 15 goalies that are better than Price.

 

[Andy]

In no particular order.....

Rinne
Backstrom
Quick
Lunqvist
Crawford
Brodeur
Niemi
Rask
Howard
Anderson

I disagree with Niemi and Crawford. The only season Niemi and Crawford had superior stats than Price was last season despite playing for superior teams. Crawford is still relatively unproven.

Also, not sure I would put Backstrom above Price either. I'd take Price over him for sure. Same with Brodeur, he's almost finished. Rinne, Quick, Lundqvist, Rask, Howard, Anderson, yeah, I would put them ahead, but outside Lundqvist and post-season quick, none are in another league that Price isn't in.

 

[Andy]

I'm not calling 2010-11 an outlier that distorts numbers. I really do think Price was that good. By eye, my memory of watching his games that season would fit with those numbers. He hasn't been as good and as consistent since.

I'm sure you can see the difference between looking for trends and handpicking the games you don't like.

.920 over 167 is .920 over 167 games. How is that not consistent? Actually, it's even more impressive considering there is a last place finish in that time span.

I don't care about the two games where 13 goals were allowed because in the larger 167 it doesn't play any significant role in shifting the numbers. In fact, the outlier season is that last place season. You are actually helping my argument. When you actually think about it, the one dragging the numbers down is the last place finish. On the aggregate, the 2010 season and the first 30 games until Emelin got hurt are quite consistent. And even as an outlier, 2011-2012 isn't bad.

Actually, if I take the 2010 season and the first 30 games of 2012 until Emelin got hurt, Price's SV is .922% over 102 games. Adding the 2011 last place finish brings it down to .920SV%.

 

[Habz2006]

I disagree with Niemi and Crawford. The only season Niemi and Crawford had superior stats than Price was last season despite playing for superior teams. Crawford is still relatively unproven.

Also, not sure I would put Backstrom above Price either. I'd take Price over him for sure. Same with Brodeur, he's almost finished. Rinne, Quick, Lundqvist, Rask, Howard, Anderson, yeah, I would put them ahead, but outside Lundqvist and post-season quick, none are in another league that Price isn't in.

They both have cups ... are you kidding me ? There it is again .... so let me get this straight ... a goalie's value is decided on the team that plays in front of him ?? If that is the case ... why do teams even bother drafting goalies .. why don't they just sign a backup from the AHL and stack up in front of him and win the cup ? ALSO if that is the reality ... we should trade Price (since his value is so high) and build a championship team with an average goalie in nets like Budaj. Then Budaj can win the cup just like crawford and niemi did right ...

 

[Roulin]

.920 over 167 is .920 over 167 games. How is that not consistent? Actually, it's even more impressive considering there is a last place finish in that time span.

I don't care about the two games where 13 goals were allowed because in the larger 167 it doesn't play any significant role in shifting the numbers. In fact, the outlier season is that last place season. You are actually helping my argument. When you actually think about it, the one dragging the numbers down is the last place finish. On the aggregate, the 2010 season and the first 30 games until Emelin got hurt are quite consistent. And even as an outlier, 2011-2012 isn't bad.

"Price was consistent in 2010-11 and 30 games of last season" = "Price was consistent except for when he was inconsistent"

 

[Andy]

They both have cups ... are you kidding me ? There it is again .... so let me get this straight ... a goalie's value is decided on the team that plays in front of him ?? If that is the case ... why do teams even bother drafting goalies .. why don't they just sign a backup from the AHL and stack up in front of him and win the cup ? ALSO if that is the reality ... we should trade Price (since his value is so high) and build a championship team with an average goalie in nets like Budaj. Then Budaj can win the cup just like crawford and niemi did right ...

fleury has a cup, I wouldn't trade Price for him. Emery played 18 games last year and had 1 loss, would you trade Price for him?

I didn't know cups are won solely by goalies. Niemi and Crawford have cups playing for the best team in the nhl the years they won it.

 

[Whitesnake]

The fact is people are using 8 games to crap on Price, which says more of his detractors than it does of Price.

And I'll say that the factor you are solely using Save% to say that Price wasn't so bad, says it all about Price lovers. In the end, it has to be in between. Which at one point, until proven otherwise, says that Price isn't a bad goalie. FAR FROM IT. But he's not the top 5 goalie that some still to this day wants to think he is. For me he's around #10-15. Which still means I'd take him over 15-20 guys out there. That's good. Just not elite. Not yet. His potential is. Not the actual results.

Pretty tough to solely use the save% when people always totally discredit goalies that end up playing for a better team. 'Cause this is where their analysis stop...they play for a better team. Well I've seen Crawford, Quick, Lundqvist, Rask, Howard and Co SAVE those superior teams REALLY often. They are amongst the reasons why those teams are so superior as a whole or defensively. But somehow, when we solely look at stats....let's just pretend that those goalies don't exist and that if those teams would just have 6 players on the ice instead of a goalie, that they'd win anyway.

And then, while Price is being "protected" based on how poor our D's are....no other goalies in this league is being "protected" the same way. If it goes for Price, it has to go for Dubnyk and Co....

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

In no particular order.....

Rinne
Backstrom
Quick
Lunqvist
Crawford
Niemi
Rask
Howard
Anderson
Bobrovski

Really?

 

[Habz2006]

fleury has a cup, I wouldn't trade Price for him. Emery played 18 games last year and had 1 loss, would you trade Price for him?

I didn't know cups are won solely by goalies. Niemi and Crawford have cups playing for the best team in the nhl the years they won it.

Well why don`t you comment on my last point .... you make it seem like any goalie could have been in nets those years and won the cup. I don`t agree with that at all.

 

[Andy]

"Price was consistent in 2010-11 and 30 games of last season" = "Price was consistent except for when he was inconsistent"

It's funny considering you are the one using 8 games of one season to say that he's inconsistent

With the 2010 season and the first 30 games of 2012 until Emelin got hurt, Price's SV is .922% over 102 games. Adding the 2011 last place finish brings it down to .920SV%.

The 2010 season + the 2011 season = 920SV%
The 2011 season + the first 30 games of 2012 season = .918Sv%.
2010-2011 + the first 30 games of 2012 = .920SV%

Looks pretty consistent to me.

 

[Habz2006]

Really?

Yes really. Check out nhl.com ... you might learn a lot there.