The Biggest problem with this team

[MaxR11]

I won’t address the entire post - too long.

Good habits can help a team be more competitive than their talent level dictates, but talent deficiency will limit what a team’s ceiling is.

If you can look at this roster, and the Oilers rosters from the past 8 years and tell me that habits/culture was/is a bigger problem than talent level of personnel, then clearly we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion. I can’t imagine how culture could’ve made a team sporting a blue line with the likes of N Schultz, Ference, Barker, Belov, Peckham etc a competitive team. Even now, the roster is loaded with 3rd and 4th line players outside of our top 3 forwards, and you continue to maintain that habits/culture are the main problem?

This roster has a low ceiling for what it can accomplish, regardless of the habits that the players employ, because there are very few players with scoring touch. They can’t just play 1-0 and 2-1 every game, it won’t happen.

well, i have always said talent is definitely a factor. but again, how much of the talent was just not developed properly here because of culture? how do we know jesse and yama wouldn't be useful players like kyle connor now if developed under a differnt culture and circumstance.

look at vegas... their D was fully of nobodies and guys with "potential". would anyone here think derek england would have been a good pick up here before he broke out to be a solid piece of the vegas team? he would have been in your list of guys like ference, barker, schultz etc. you don't know that ference, schultz etc would not have been just as effective if they were in the vegas system last year.

yes, the ceiling of this team may be limited due to talent but you still as i said numerous times now, need to build the FOUNDATION and fundamental proper culture to build your talent off of. is it a coincidnce we don't have many players develop into very useful players for this team?... i dont thingk so. i think it speaks partly to the culture and how this org develops players.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

well, i have always said talent is definitely a factor. but again, how much of the talent was just not developed properly here because of culture? how do we know jesse and yama wouldn't be useful players like kyle connor now if developed under a differnt culture and circumstance.

look at vegas... their D was fully of nobodies and guys with "potential". would anyone here think derek england would have been a good pick up here before he broke out to be a solid piece of the vegas team? he would have been in your list of guys like ference, barker, schultz etc. you don't know that ference, schultz etc would not have been just as effective if they were in the vegas system last year.

yes, the ceiling of this team may be limited due to talent but you still as i said numerous times now, need to build the FOUNDATION and fundamental proper culture to build your talent off of. is it a coincidnce we don't have many players develop into very useful players for this team?... i dont thingk so. i think it speaks partly to the culture and how this org develops players.

I think it speaks more to the incompetence of the organization that players don't develop here yet miraculously seem to perform better away from this team.

Normally people get fired for being incompetent. In Oilerland they get promoted.

 

[MaxR11]

I think it speaks more to the incompetence of the organization that players don't develop here yet miraculously seem to perform better away from this team.

Normally people get fired for being incompetent. In Oilerland they get promoted.

yes and that's why a significant part of our problem is the culture of this organization. and yes culture has to also do with not putting up with failure. it speaks to the guys at the top that guys like lowe macT etc continue to be with this org.... speaks to the culture that losing is accepted. says mediocracy is ok. there's a reason some good teams seem to always be able to bring in and devleop their young guys continuously. culture. how things are done in the org.

 

[Little Fury]

great, stick to your english literature and maybe let people who actually know hockey talk about hockey.

i know it sounds discombobulated... i'm just basically typing it all out quickly without regard for actual grammar.

You've yet to display any knowledge of hockey that couldn't be gleaned from listening to any pee wee coach. Maybe less because a pee wee coach would have to at least give specific concrete direction to his players.

 

[guymez]

Except it IS all of that including what you mentioned -- puck management. It's everything. You name it, it's a massive hole for this team.

I hear you.
If the team could at the very least clean up the first and last few minutes of a period that would be huge step forward IMO. Then go from there....not perfect hockey (not possible) but more responsible hockey.

Someone posted a gif in another thread which shows the fallout after Jesse missed that easy pass and failed to get the puck deep. After Dallas retreived the puck and had gained the zone they had the puck on the half boards and every Oiler player in the pic was puck watching and 2 Stars players were wide open in the slot.
I didnt include this in the OP but it was yet another critical breakdown.

I have no doubt that Hitch was all over these things and will work to instill better habits but until the team can drastically reduce these compounded poor decisions this team will not win jack IMO.

 

[guymez]

I agree that the team, collectively, seems to immediately hit the panic-button as soon as they get scored on. Consequently, when they get scored on in the first minute (hello Talbot), it pretty much guarantees the game is over.

If I'm Edmonton's coach these days, I think I would call a time-out immediately after we're scored on, because the Oilers invariably give up multiple goals in a row after the first. They just cannot get it together after being scored upon.

But, fundamentally, what are the team's top two problems?:


1.

2.
Drafting

I agree with this except to say that the drafting has actually improved a lot recently. So I dont really have an issue with that.

Reason number 1 though is totally valid. Katz as an owner (from a hockey Ops perspective) has been an abject failure. Embarrassing is probably the best way to describe his reign as owner.
The problem is that Katz is always going to be the owner and he is likely always going to want his Red Wine Summit to meddle in Hockey Ops.

The best we can hope for as fans is that he backs off and lets the people hired to run the team actually do their jobs.

 

[space321]

I agree with this except to say that the drafting has actually improved a lot recently. So I dont really have an issue with that.

Reason number 1 though is totally valid. Katz as an owner (from a hockey Ops perspective) has been an abject failure. Embarrassing is probably the best way to describe his reign as owner.
The problem is that Katz is always going to be the owner and he is likely always going to want his Red Wine Summit to meddle in Hockey Ops.

The best we can hope for as fans is that he backs off and lets the people hired to run the team actually do their jobs.

Dude, Katz is not an "abject failure" of an owner lol. An example of that would be Eugene Melnyk.

Katz paid McDavid $100M without even the hint of a problem. He gave the reigns to respected hockey minds, it's not his fault they f***ed everything up. The only thing that he can be blamed is sticking by the OBC, but guys like Gretzky/Lowe/MacT aren't even involved in hockey operations anymore.

All of you love to skirt the actual issue with this team by blaming people who have very little daily involvement. The issue starts and ends with Chiarelli's failure to build a good enough roster. Everything else is an extension of this one issue.

 

[Drivesaitl]

i aid i'm not getting into too much detail. learn to read. i have touched on things in the past couple of years that probably went above your head.

Quoted for kicks.

 

[guymez]

Dude, Katz is not an "abject failure" of an owner lol. An example of that would be Eugene Melnyk.

Katz paid McDavid $100M without even the hint of a problem. He gave the reigns to respected hockey minds, it's not his fault they ****ed everything up. The only thing that he can be blamed is sticking by the OBC, but guys like Gretzky/Lowe/MacT aren't even involved in hockey operations anymore.

All of you love to skirt the actual issue with this team by blaming people who have very little daily involvement. The issue starts and ends with Chiarelli's failure to build a good enough roster. Everything else is an extension of this one issue.

You must be a new fan...either that or in a state of never ending denial.
Please do detail the successes Katz has had (from a hockey ops perspective).

Take your time Dude.

 

[space321]

You must be a new fan...either that or in a state of never ending denial.
Please do detail the successes Katz has had (from a hockey ops perspective).

Take your time Dude.

What?

What do the other 29 owners do that Katz doesn't?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

What?

What do the other 29 owners do that Katz doesn't?

not own a team that finishes in the bottom 10 in 9 of his 10 years in ownership?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Dude, Katz is not an "abject failure" of an owner lol. An example of that would be Eugene Melnyk.

Katz paid McDavid $100M without even the hint of a problem. He gave the reigns to respected hockey minds, it's not his fault they ****ed everything up. The only thing that he can be blamed is sticking by the OBC, but guys like Gretzky/Lowe/MacT aren't even involved in hockey operations anymore.

Lowe is very much a part of the hockey operations. According to Dreger, he was in on the meetings regarding the future of Todd McLellan...
MacT is overseeing the AHL team
and remember Red Wine Summits?

All of you love to skirt the actual issue with this team by blaming people who have very little daily involvement. The issue starts and ends with Chiarelli's failure to build a good enough roster. Everything else is an extension of this one issue.

then who's to blame for not firing him yet?

 

[McOilers97]

You must be a new fan...either that or in a state of never ending denial.
Please do detail the successes Katz has had (from a hockey ops perspective).

Take your time Dude.

While I do agree that Katz failed in the sense that he didn't make a sweeping change quickly enough to the organization (as was finally done when PC and TMac were brought in), he did make one, and I fully believe that the intent was there to help turn the franchise around.

Problem is he turned the team over to one of the worst GMs of all time.

So we went from GMs that did nothing (Tambellini, MacTavish) to a GM that did everything wrong.

PC f***ed this whole thing up with the Reinhart trade on 2015 draft day and the Hall trade a year later. While I don't discount that the input of those close with the Oil Kings led to the Reinhart trade, nobody made Chiarelli make that trade. He got impatient because of the Hamilton thing falling through. And the Hall trade was impatience once again.

The organization may be rotten, but Chiarelli chose to make the shitty trades and signings that he made.

 

[I am the Liquor]

guys like Gretzky/Lowe/MacT aren't even involved in hockey operations anymore.

Wrong,

 

[space321]

Lowe is very much a part of the hockey operations. According to Dreger, he was in on the meetings regarding the future of Todd McLellan...
MacT is overseeing the AHL team
and remember Red Wine Summits?


then who's to blame for not firing him yet?

Bob Nicholson?

There's like multiple layers of blame before Katz is even responsible for anything. Plus it's not like I said Katz is a perfect owner. The guy called him an "abject failure", which Katz isn't.

Also MacT is overseeing BAK yes, but BAK is doing something right by getting the most out of our most promising prospects. It's what happens after they get called up that is the problem. And I'm not sure what you're implying regarding Kevin Lowe, please be more clear. He's vice chairman of the OEG, so it's not unusual for him to sit in on a meeting. If there is evidence that he is directly controlling the personnel of the Oilers players, then I will gladly admit I'm wrong.

 

[space321]

Wrong,

thanks professor

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Bob Nicholson?

There's like multiple layers of blame before Katz is even responsible for anything. Plus it's not like I said Katz is a perfect owner. The guy called him an "abject failure", which Katz isn't.

Katz put Bob Nicholson in charge though and Katz is responsible for owning a team that has been bottom 10 for 9 of 10 years of his ownership

Also MacT is overseeing BAK yes, but BAK is doing something right by getting the most out of our most promising prospects. It's what happens after they get called up that is the problem. And I'm not sure what you're implying regarding Kevin Lowe, please be more clear. He's vice chairman of the OEG, so it's not unusual for him to sit in on a meeting. If there is evidence that he is directly controlling the personnel of the Oilers players, then I will gladly admit I'm wrong.

I'm implying he's still having a voice in the hockey decisions...hence why being in on meeting regarding the future of Todd McLellan

 

[guymez]

While I do agree that Katz failed in the sense that he didn't make a sweeping change quickly enough to the organization (as was finally done when PC and TMac were brought in), he did make one, and I fully believe that the intent was there to help turn the franchise around.

Problem is he turned the team over to one of the worst GMs of all time.

So we went from GMs that did nothing (Tambellini, MacTavish) to a GM that did everything wrong.

PC ****ed this whole thing up with the Reinhart trade on 2015 draft day and the Hall trade a year later. While I don't discount that the input of those close with the Oil Kings led to the Reinhart trade, nobody made Chiarelli make that trade. He got impatient because of the Hamilton thing falling through. And the Hall trade was impatience once again.

The organization may be rotten, but Chiarelli chose to make the ****ty trades and signings that he made.

I dont disagree with this at all. The point I was trying to make was that vast majority of Katzs decisions regarding hockey Ops have been a disaster.

This has been discussed to death on here over the years. I take a bit of an issue with an uninformed poster (@space321) reacting with a pissy post acting like Katz isnt culpable for the team since he has owned it.

There is a laundry list of issues IMO....it all starts with the fact that this team has had more coaches and GM's than any team since Katz has owned the team. They have missed the playoffs more than any other team in NHL history since he has owned the team.
The team has been an abject failure in terms of drafting and player development since he has owned the team.

All of this because Katz has chosen to integrate himself as a fanboy of the Boys on the Bus players which has skewed his decision making. He isnt running this like a business...he is running it like a fan.
It has made him a brutal owner in terms of the on ice success.

Off the top of my head here are the major issues....

On going meddling in hockey ops (drafting, player procurement and coaching decisions)...as reported by previous employees like Renney
Fanboy adherence to keeping people like Lowe and MacT forever employed in the background and involved in decision making. Apparently Wayne Gretzyy and Paul Coffey have been added to this list. IE...the Red Wine Summit.
Making sure that the hierarchy is obscured enough so that Oiler fans and the media have no idea who is really making the Hockey ops decisions.

I am sure some others can add some additional points.

I usually steer clear of posting about this because it is a dead end conversation that only creates endless frustration.
Katz owns the team and he is a meddler and he has messed this team up in a big way over the years...nothing we do or say changes that. It is what it is.

Best IMO just to leave it be and move on which is what I should have done in this thread.
That was totally my bad.

 

[BertMcDrai]

This is why I'm not convinced Buffalo's success will last. But hey, you never know, at least they've laid out quite a buffer, it's going to take a collapse of the ages for them to miss the playoffs at this rate.

So maybe the collapse has just begun

 

[dirtisdirt]

Oilers lack confidence. Dominant at the start of the game. Up 2-0. Kings scored one and the Oilers were on their heels.

 

[Seachd]

I agree this is a problem, but it’s not recent. I haven’t been able to calmly watch a 2 goal lead late in the third with this team since before the days of all the Dallas playoff series, which were just that traumatic.

 

[MaxR11]

same roster, different culture and habits under hitch. where's little fury, soundwave etc at? i feel like they go into hiding, sulk and kick garbage cans around when the oil start doing well because it doesnt jive with their anti-oiler narratives.

 

[redgrant]

I've always maintained the biggest problem with this team is the media never held them accountable. If they did more often like even other Canadian cities such as Vancouver or more comparably Pittsburgh, when they flustered with their 2 superstars, we wouldnt have 200 years of the OBC era.

I still have never heard any one in the media call out Chiarelli for the Hall trade or Lucic deal.
After Lowes 6 rings rant no one had the audacity to remind him that was as a second pairing dman not in management where he hasnt won anything.
Everyone scared to ask Bob Nicholson why the organization needs to have MacT, Howson, Lowe when theyve all been fired already.

 

[Chet Manley]

It's been the top 4 d for a decade. We really miss the version of Sekera that turned Russel into a passable second pairing player. A complete top 4 turned Talbot into a decent starter and tilted the ice forward. Russel or Nurse need a puck mover like Sekera and Larsson/Klefbom need a second pair that doesn't keep them in the deep all of the time. Lots of championship teams have a bums as the #6,7,8d.... tendency is to blame them for losses when the top 4 can't get it done.

Edit: PS how can a team go this long without a scoring threat from the point on the PP? Every PP needs 3 legit threats to force the opp pk to try picking a poison.

 

[Beerfish]

Dude, Katz is not an "abject failure" of an owner lol. An example of that would be Eugene Melnyk.

Katz paid McDavid $100M without even the hint of a problem. He gave the reigns to respected hockey minds, it's not his fault they ****ed everything up. The only thing that he can be blamed is sticking by the OBC, but guys like Gretzky/Lowe/MacT aren't even involved in hockey operations anymore.

All of you love to skirt the actual issue with this team by blaming people who have very little daily involvement. The issue starts and ends with Chiarelli's failure to build a good enough roster. Everything else is an extension of this one issue.

By FAR the worst owner in the league including Melnyk.