The Biggest problem with this team

[MaxR11]

Terms like "culture" or "not playing the right way" are so nebulous as to be utterly meaningless.

sorry i forget that this is a board with a wide range of knowledge and some guys like you won't grasp more advance concepts of team sports.

you talk to any coach at a decent level here (golden bears, oil kings etc etc) they will tell you all about culture and doing things the right way, building those fundamental foundations and develop the talent on top of it. you assume i don't value talent which is not true. i'm just saying culture is equally if not more so important to ultimate success.

 

[Little Fury]

sorry i forget that this is a board with a wide range of knowledge and some guys like you won't grasp more advance concepts of team sports.

LOL. You're talking voodoo nonsense, man.

you talk to any coach at a decent level here (golden bears, oil kings etc etc) they will tell you all about culture and doing things the right way, building those fundamental foundations and develop the talent on top of it. you assume i don't value talent which is not true. i'm just saying culture is equally if not more so important to ultimate success.

Get back to me if you can actually talk in detail about systems, roles and responsibilities, etc. instead of just spouting cliché on top of cliché.

 

[McOilers97]

i've gone into detail about what it means and if you can't or won't grasp it that's on you.

From your other post on this page:

"an example of culture and development is dubnyk. here his development was hampered possibly by questionable goaltending coach and the culture of how this team played hockey in front of him (not playing the right way)."

What is this supposed to tell anyone? You're using the word culture to refer to the team's lack of structure on the ice... "Culture" in the team sports sense is the attitudes/beliefs/values of a team, not the physical execution of their game plan.

 

[MaxR11]

LOL. You're talking voodoo nonsense, man.



Get back to me if you can actually talk in detail about systems, roles and responsibilities, etc. instead of just spouting cliché on top of cliché.

i have described in detail over and over in the past year or more about what it means. heck even hitch had mentioned it in his interview a bit.

 

[Little Fury]

i have described in detail over and over in the past year or more about what it means. heck even hitch had mentioned it in his interview a bit.

Nah just saying "culture" and "they play too loosey goosey" over and over isn't it chief.

 

[McOilers97]

Nah just saying "culture" and "they play too loosey goosey" over and over isn't it chief.

Don't you know, "culture" can mean whatever HK97 wants it to.

 

[Little Fury]

Don't you know, "culture" can mean whatever HK97 wants it to.

It do be like that.

 

[MaxR11]

From your other post on this page:

"an example of culture and development is dubnyk. here his development was hampered possibly by questionable goaltending coach and the culture of how this team played hockey in front of him (not playing the right way)."

What is this supposed to tell anyone? You're using the word culture to refer to the team's lack of structure on the ice... "Culture" in the team sports sense is the attitudes/beliefs/values of a team, not the physical execution of their game plan.

you simplify too much. i'm only touching on bit s of it because i'm not going to wasete much time trying to convince you but it's about battle level,, actually battle hard, knowing how to battle hard to win pucks, not flying by when you can stop on a play or puck. proper habits. playing the right way. communication on ice. many of these things that seem like voodoo or are intangible affect how well the team plays on the ice, knowing and trusting where your teammates will be for a pass, everything clicks better with trust. time and space opens up etc etc. you can't having guys cheating away from the five man unit because that means he isn't where he's supposed to be and that affects where another teammate will be to cover and it's a bad dominos effect from there. i can go on and on and on about playing the right way and that relates to culture and habits.

 

[Little Fury]

you simplify too much. i'm only touching on bit s of it because i'm not going to wasete much time trying to convince you but it's about battle level,, actually battle hard, knowing how to battle hard to win pucks, not flying by when you can stop on a play or puck. proper habits. playing the right way. communication on ice. many of these things that seem like voodoo or are intangible affect how well the team plays on the ice, knowing and trusting where your teammates will be for a pass, everything clicks better with trust. time and space opens up etc etc. you can't having guys cheating away from the five man unit because that means he isn't where he's supposed to be and that affects where another teammate will be to cover and it's a bad dominos effect from there. i can go on and on and on about playing the right way and that relates to culture and habits.

That you think this, which is quite literally beer league level stuff, is "advanced knowledge" is pretty funny.

 

[McOilers97]

you simplify too much. i'm only touching on bit s of it because i'm not going to wasete much time trying to convince you but it's about battle level,, actually battle hard, knowing how to battle hard to win pucks, not flying by when you can stop on a play or puck. proper habits. playing the right way. communication on ice. many of these things that seem like voodoo or are intangible affect how well the team plays on the ice, knowing and trusting where your teammates will be for a pass, everything clicks better with trust. time and space opens up etc etc. you can't having guys cheating away from the five man unit because that means he isn't where he's supposed to be and that affects where another teammate will be to cover and it's a bad dominos effect from there. i can go on and on and on about playing the right way and that relates to culture and habits.

While I agree that many of those things have been lacking with this team, I think those fit strictly into "habits". Culture, to me, refers to how the players and coaches hold each other accountable - ie: how they deal with issues/mistakes (lapses in coverage, cheating for offense etc) - do they call out the player not adhering to the structure, do they ignore bad habits that creep into players' games, do they have double standards where veterans get a free pass on those things? I see culture as the enforcement of the team's structure and playing habits, not as the actual structure itself, if that makes sense. Maybe splitting hairs, I dunno. I think you are overusing the word though to be a catch-all.

 

[MaxR11]

That you think this, which is quite literally beer league level stuff, is "advanced knowledge" is pretty funny.

i aid i'm not getting into too much detail. learn to read. i have touched on things in the past couple of years that probably went above your head.

 

[MaxR11]

While I agree that many of those things have been lacking with this team, I think those fit strictly into "habits". Culture, to me, refers to how the players and coaches hold each other accountable - ie: how they deal with issues/mistakes (lapses in coverage, cheating for offense etc) - do they call out the player not adhering to the structure, do they ignore bad habits that creep into players' games, do they have double standards where veterans get a free pass on those things? I see culture as the enforcement of the team's structure and playing habits, not as the actual structure itself, if that makes sense. Maybe splitting hairs, I dunno. I think you are overusing the word though to be a catch-all.

Habits are part of the culture. And that's the thing holding each other accountable is also something. Have you noticed how, since Hitch has taken over, Connor has been so much harder and stringent on the backcheck and not cheating/flying the zone. sticking with defensive responsibilities more. Before it was more loosey goosey and more cheating. How can you as a leader hold your teammates responsible to do the right thngs when you yourself do not. And i hate how people here say "o well it's because he pops 100 plus points a year, he's allowed to cheat and fly by every now and then". NO, and that's what hitch is trying to change. the culture. he wants connor to do more. to lead by example. and i know people here would be like, "what more can he do, he pus up 100 points, he dominates advanced stats etc etc." but hitch thinks he needs more from connor and i agree. i've seen more times thani'd like that connor and his line has been lax in the defensive side and it cost the team a very important goals against and the game. yes i understand he popped 2-3 goas before that to get us in the position to win but it doesn't excuse him as a leader to slip up defensively. things like this is what some posters do NOT undertsand. they simply look at advanced stats and think there's nothing more that player can do. and the thing was hall was worse... he was no where near as dominant or good and he way more often did these bad habit things. culture and habits starts from the execs, the coaches, the best players on the team.

look at looch, kass playing well and playing the right way recently. i swear they have created more chances to score and more zone time than they had all of last year! they're playing with different habits and cultural values now and it's helped them go from liability to a bit of a force out there. only thing they need to do is finish. but even though they're not finishing they are positively contributing to the team.

solid defence and turning pucks over creates offence. we saw it in 2016-17. you see a lot of teams generate a lot of offence via turnovers or solid dfence that breaks up opposition offence and go the oher way in transition.

 

[Soundwave]

There are lots of teams that play "loosey goosey" and are successful in this league.

The reason the Oilers can't play that way is because they don't have the players to back that up.

 

[MaxR11]

There are lots of teams that play "loosey goosey" and are successful in this league.

The reason the Oilers can't play that way is because they don't have the players to back that up.

this is somewhat true. but those teams have varying success year to year or even within year. it's hard to win the cup playing that way. and the goal is to win the cup. not to make the playoffs just to be cannon fodder for teams that play the right way.

and i guess loosey goosey is not the be all end all... the whole cultural thing encompasses a lot more. it's part of the reason why vegas can be so good. can make players that were "sitting on the fence" type talent (good or bad) into very effective players that can score. i bet you if a few years ago the oil acquire the likes of william karlsson or tuch etc that we'd question it.

 

[Soundwave]

this is somewhat true. but those teams have varying success year to year or even within year. it's hard to win the cup playing that way. and the goal is to win the cup. not to make the playoffs just to be cannon fodder for teams that play the right way.

and i guess loosey goosey is not the be all end all... the whole cultural thing encompasses a lot more. it's part of the reason why vegas can be so good. can make players that were "sitting on the fence" type talent (good or bad) into very effective players that can score. i bet you if a few years ago the oil acquire the likes of william karlsson or tuch etc that we'd question it.

Las Vegas doesn't really play a tight system though, they do certainly have a strong run n' gun aspect to their game. There is definite "loosey goosey" in their style of play.

The league is constantly changing, every decade is different. 70s hockey is different from 80s and that was different from the 90s, and the 2000s was different, etc. etc. I think part of what's happening is we're entering a new era and we're poorly equipped to play in this era.

Unfortunately it looks like other teams are setting the new standard and the new pace and we're chasing it.

 

[MaxR11]

Las Vegas doesn't really play a tight system though, they do certainly have a strong run n' gun aspect to their game. There is definite "loosey goosey" in their style of play.

The league is constantly changing, every decade is different. 70s hockey is different from 80s and that was different from the 90s, and the 2000s was different, etc. etc. I think part of what's happening is we're entering a new era and we're poorly equipped to play in this era.

Unfortunately it looks like other teams are setting the new standard and the new pace and we're chasing it.

and i said, it's more than just loosey goosey. even in their "run and gun" style... which i'm not sure is exactly how they're playing... but vegas have habits and cultural aspects to their team play, which was bought into more easily with a good coach and the fact that they were essentially a bunch of "rejects" that had to come together properly if they wanted to have success. they were essentially the epitome of how proper buy in to a good culture and habits can bring the best out of each indivual and those individuals play for each other as a team.

even hitch said this oilers team had started to play disconnected like a bunch of individuals. it's cliched but a single straw breaks easily but a bundle of them together is much stronger. when the culture is not there players start to not play as a unit and more as individuals. it's so much harder to generate consistent offence as a disconnected group.

there's also a massive difference between ture effort and going through the motion looking like you're giving an effort. i think this concept really fools a lot of fans. it could be the difference between being a split second late in the backcheck or coverage. that split second either allows for a great clear snipe at the net for oppositon or you knocking the puck off his stick or at the very least disrupt the shot and hurry it.

 

[Little Fury]

i aid i'm not getting into too much detail. learn to read. i have touched on things in the past couple of years that probably went above your head.

lol, I'm sure the guy who can barely string together a sentence in English is gonna blow my mind with advanced hockey knowledge.

 

[MaxR11]

also things like how hard you go in practice and whether you pay attention to details in practice is part of culture. all great teams get a lot out of practice. the great oilers teams of the 80s always talk about how important it was for the great players like gretz to elevate everyone else in practice. some of the lesser players have said, trying to keep up with the effort level and greatness of gretz/mess etc is what made them better and made playing the opposition seem easier.

dean millard on the radio now talking about how watching the oil practice under hitch is night and day when it comes to effort level, intensity and the drills. practice how you play. that's part of the cultural expectation of coaches and organization. could it be part of the reason the oilers had tend to come out to start a game flat. practicing too lax and you get into the habit of playing lax.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think the biggest problem with this team is everything. Except McDavid. And Koskinen. And Drai. But everything else!

 

[MaxR11]

lol, I'm sure the guy who can barely string together a sentence in English is gonna blow my mind with advanced hockey knowledge.

great, stick to your english literature and maybe let people who actually know hockey talk about hockey.

i know it sounds discombobulated... i'm just basically typing it all out quickly without regard for actual grammar.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I think the biggest problem with this team is everything. Except McDavid. And Koskinen. And Drai. But everything else!

This is pretty much it. Outside of a few players the Oilers are nothing special, neither on or off the ice.

McDavid makes this team a lot better than it really is.

 

[KarmaPolice]

This is pretty much it. Outside of a few players the Oilers are nothing special, neither on or off the ice.

McDavid makes this team a lot better than it really is.

I tune into Oilers games now to watch McDavid and Drai work their magic. When the other three lines are out, that's when I mentally tune out and start staring at the wall in boredom, or go to the kitchen to slowly watch the mold grow in the sink.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I tune into Oilers games now to watch McDavid and Drai work their magic. When the other three lines are out, that's when I mentally tune out and start staring at the wall in boredom.

Hey, the Nuge line might score.... every once in a while.

The bottom two lines though? You might as well send out 5 defensemen.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Hey, the Nuge line might score.... every once in a while.

The bottom two lines though? You might as well send out 5 defensemen.

Yeah, it's brutal man. We desperately need a 2nd line talent. I want Toffoli so freaking bad. I think he'd fit great with Rieder and Nuge on the 2nd line. He's like a bigger, younger Eberle. Wouldn't be cheap, but I'd be willing to pay quite a bit for him. If we can beat the Kings tonight, dashing any realistic playoff hopes a bit more, perhaps they'd be more open to dealing. We simply need to have 2 lines (or more) that the opposing team needs to respect, and that's simply not really the case right now; it's a one line show.

 

[McOilers97]

Habits are part of the culture. And that's the thing holding each other accountable is also something. Have you noticed how, since Hitch has taken over, Connor has been so much harder and stringent on the backcheck and not cheating/flying the zone. sticking with defensive responsibilities more. Before it was more loosey goosey and more cheating. How can you as a leader hold your teammates responsible to do the right thngs when you yourself do not. And i hate how people here say "o well it's because he pops 100 plus points a year, he's allowed to cheat and fly by every now and then". NO, and that's what hitch is trying to change. the culture. he wants connor to do more. to lead by example. and i know people here would be like, "what more can he do, he pus up 100 points, he dominates advanced stats etc etc." but hitch thinks he needs more from connor and i agree. i've seen more times thani'd like that connor and his line has been lax in the defensive side and it cost the team a very important goals against and the game. yes i understand he popped 2-3 goas before that to get us in the position to win but it doesn't excuse him as a leader to slip up defensively. things like this is what some posters do NOT undertsand. they simply look at advanced stats and think there's nothing more that player can do. and the thing was hall was worse... he was no where near as dominant or good and he way more often did these bad habit things. culture and habits starts from the execs, the coaches, the best players on the team.

look at looch, kass playing well and playing the right way recently. i swear they have created more chances to score and more zone time than they had all of last year! they're playing with different habits and cultural values now and it's helped them go from liability to a bit of a force out there. only thing they need to do is finish. but even though they're not finishing they are positively contributing to the team.

solid defence and turning pucks over creates offence. we saw it in 2016-17. you see a lot of teams generate a lot of offence via turnovers or solid dfence that breaks up opposition offence and go the oher way in transition.

I won’t address the entire post - too long.

Good habits can help a team be more competitive than their talent level dictates, but talent deficiency will limit what a team’s ceiling is.

If you can look at this roster, and the Oilers rosters from the past 8 years and tell me that habits/culture was/is a bigger problem than talent level of personnel, then clearly we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion. I can’t imagine how culture could’ve made a team sporting a blue line with the likes of N Schultz, Ference, Barker, Belov, Peckham etc a competitive team. Even now, the roster is loaded with 3rd and 4th line players outside of our top 3 forwards, and you continue to maintain that habits/culture are the main problem?

This roster has a low ceiling for what it can accomplish, regardless of the habits that the players employ, because there are very few players with scoring touch. They can’t just play 1-0 and 2-1 every game, it won’t happen.