The Armchair Coaching Thread [MOD WARNING in OP]

[Canucker]

Canucks have eroded from one of the fastest teams in the league to one of the slowest, and I'm not willing to blame that on the coach.

Being static in the O-zone is so ****ing evident....watch any decent teams PP and it's night and day.

I think our d still does a good job of pinching in from the blueline, but I don't think they have many options to do anything with the puck because of how static the forwards seem to be. Both on the PP and 5 on 5.

They pinch to keep pucks in, but you rarely see them jumping up into the play looking to get open around the slot area (ie the way Ehrhoff used to) or back door. Defenses aren't disrupted and pulled out of position, which gave more time and space for the Sedins to find an open man.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

I didn't answer the question. I did that on purpose, I was using one of your techniques.

AV's team never had 20 games to fall out of it last year. Their playoff performance sure showed where they likely would have been.

I'm not discrediting AV.

I'm just not blaming Torts' system for the failure of this team, which is what you want to do.

After 48 games, AV's Canucks had 2 more points than this team after 48 games. Just 2. The reason I brought up the 48 game mark, is because it didn't allow for things to regulate last year.

I don't think the Canucks would have performed as badly as they have this year, but I also didn't think the identical faces of the franchise would be as bad as they have been. It's hard to judge AV's 48 game season to this version of the Canucks.

I actually like how they play more, they just haven't gotten the results.

I don't really blame Torts(apart from starting Lack yesterday).

He's just not a good fit for this team.

Why would you assume that things would "regulate" to become worse under AV last season? It certainly goes against his track record.

All we have with Torts is what we've seen this year. And it seems like the team is doing a lot of similar things to the past Rangers, except our personnel simply isn't built to pull it off.

I was always against firing AV because there was never anyone available who would be as good a fit for this team. However I'm still hoping that Torts can adapt to fit the personnel, much like AV has done with New York.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

This was also a team under AV that almost never gave up a lead and particularly in the third period.

Yes. I do not remember any third period collapses at all.

 

[arsmaster*]

They pinch to keep pucks in, but you rarely see them jumping up into the play looking to get open around the slot area (ie the way Ehrhoff used to) or back door. Defenses aren't disrupted and pulled out of position, which gave more time and space for the Sedins to find an open man.

I forget which game it was and how many times Hamhuis flubbed his chances on the back door, I think they make those plays, but there is movement anywhere to open up those lanes.

 

[NoShowWilly]

this team is slow, gets stuck flatfooted in its own end attempting to block, has no transition, and then plays dump and chase. It is really boring to watch canucks hockey these days. i wasn't even this bored in 2006-2007 and 2007-2008

 

[Raincouver]

Yes. I do not remember any third period collapses at all.

I don't.

In 2010-11 the Canucks were leading in 38 games going into the third - ZERO losses and 3 OTLs

In 2011-12 the Canucks were leading after 2 periods in 32 games - 1 loss and 2 OTL's.

 

[arsmaster*]

I don't really blame Torts(apart from starting Lack yesterday).

He's just not a good fit for this team.

Why would you assume that things would "regulate" to become worse under AV last season? It certainly goes against his track record.

All we have with Torts is what we've seen this year. And it seems like the team is doing a lot of similar things to the past Rangers, except our personnel simply isn't built to pull it off.

I was always against firing AV because there was never anyone available who would be as good a fit for this team. However I'm still hoping that Torts can adapt to fit the personnel, much like AV has done with New York.

Meh, I think they would have regulated. Also note Torts' team is playing against the Pacific, AV reaped the rewards of the NW. It certainly looks like that played a huge part in the success and non-success we're seeing. Look at our record after the new year when the tough part of our schedule came up.

I think Torts' is doing the best he can with the players he has. Riding the best players, because what is there after the best players.....not much.

What does the adaptation look like to you? What would you do if you were torts....play Kellan Lain more LOL.

 

[arsmaster*]

I don't.

In 2010-11 the Canucks were leading in 38 games going into the third - ZERO losses and 3 OTLs

In 2011-12 the Canucks were leading after 2 periods in 32 games - 1 loss and 2 OTL's.

What about 12-13?

2011 is a long time ago in sports. What have you done for me lately?

Hell, just look back to our most recent playoff series. Henrik and Daniel aren't even close to being league MVP's anymore.

Look at the last 4 games this team played under AV - Had the lead in 3 of 4 games and lost.

 

[Barney Gumble]

I don't.

In 2010-11 the Canucks were leading in 38 games going into the third - ZERO losses and 3 OTLs

In 2011-12 the Canucks were leading after 2 periods in 32 games - 1 loss and 2 OTL's.

Again I come to the topic of goaltending. In 2011-12, around the Xmas break, the team went into "cruise control". Goaltending (Luongo/Schneider) were one of (if not the major) reason we held leads.

While goaltending hasn't been terrible this season; it hasn't been at the same high level during this downturn in the season. However, scoring fewer goals means losses will pile-up.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Meh, I think they would have regulated. Also note Torts' team is playing against the Pacific, AV reaped the rewards of the NW. It certainly looks like that played a huge part in the success and non-success we're seeing. Look at our record after the new year when the tough part of our schedule came up.

I think Torts' is doing the best he can with the players he has. Riding the best players, because what is there after the best players.....not much.

What does the adaptation look like to you? What would you do if you were torts....play Kellan Lain more LOL.

It cuts both ways. Last year we only played the West, this year we're playing the East as well. I recall discussing this with someone else earlier, but I believe the net "toughness" of the schedule between this year and last year is the same.

I agree Torts is riding his top players because he doesn't know what else to do - it worked for a while but exhaustion and fatigue has worn the Sedins out, especially since it's not like they're young players anymore.

I don't know enough about the intricacies of coaching to have a real debate about what Torts should be doing instead, but I think reducing the Sedins ice time, especially on the PK, would probably be a good start.

What I do know is that under AV when the team played well we almost never lost. Can he be accused of "losing the room?" Maybe. But I think if there are some players that aren't motivated to play, especially in the playoffs, then that's on them.

Torts may be a better motivator but he's not a better coach. The amount of times that we've played "well" and still lost is far more depressing to me than when the team has an off night and plays like crap. Because at least there was the silver lining that we could do better. Right now it looks like all the creativity has been drawn out of the team and we're just doing the same things and hoping for different results.

 

[Barney Gumble]

What I do know is that under AV when the team played well we almost never lost.

I'd argue we stopped playing consistantly well since around Dec of the 2011-12 season. Strong goaltending helped hide that.

 

[Hi-wayman]

Our system is absolutely part of the problem, but to me it is on Gillis not Torts. Our coach was hired knowing full well how he coaches and how our team the way it is currently constituted is not a great fit with that. So far Gillis really has done nothing to improve the situation and it really is time for him to show that he is not completely tone deaf on what the coach needs or get a new coach.

But if I remember correctly, at the beginning Torts was not the favorite of Gillis, but Torts was the favorite of the owners.

 

[arsmaster*]

What type of roster is a torts roster? I get it. This team and its leadership group doesn't seem to have the mental makeup of a torts team.

Too many timid guys in the leadership core. I don't think there is a physical type of makeup for a torts team, because we've seen him win with a skilled group in Tampa.

I was hoping we'd seen more back against the wall attitude out of the boys with torts back there. Some guys just don't have that makeup.

 

[Rooting4TheNUCKS]

Endless problems in Canucks? Is improvement possible with Tortorella as head coach?

1 - 9 in the last ten (although some loss has come through overtime and SO) the situation seems pretty hopeless at this point of the campaign.
The run that's needed to make the playoffs look highly unlikely at this point not to say impossible with the team in as horrible form as we see now a days.
Every part of the game seems to be a problem area (except from the defense), we do not score enough goals, our PP is horrible and the Luongo situation doesn't help things either.
No wonder Kes wants out of this sinking ship.

This brings me to my question: Can our dear Canucks improve with Torta in charge or is a brigher futher based on a new head coach?

At this point even a deadline move for Crosby or Malkin wouldn't help us make the playoffs, at this poit it looks like our problems run way deeper than that.

Yes, of course a signing like Crosby would lift the teamspirit a lot, but the way that I see it this is more than a self belief problem as it looks to me that we simply lack any sort of gameplan and the know how/ skills.

For instance, our power play lacks a strategy it seems like we've never played PP before.
Is it umbrella we're trying to play or is it Shooting our PP is based on? It's impossible to tell when you the them play.

Sorry for my negative attitude, but the game against the Senators was the lowest I've ever seen the Canucks.
To be honest, we looked like a AHL team.

Please give me some insight people on your view on how we can become a competitive Playoff side once more.

 

[mossey3535]

They pinch to keep pucks in, but you rarely see them jumping up into the play looking to get open around the slot area (ie the way Ehrhoff used to) or back door. Defenses aren't disrupted and pulled out of position, which gave more time and space for the Sedins to find an open man.

Thing is, in the early stages of adopting Tort's system, the D did bounce up into the play more. The team went to the front of the net more. That stuff has since disappeared, and for the most part the team has played like the AV version whenever they have struggled.

Like many coaches in the league, Tort's attitude towards offence is to 'get out of the player's way'. That was also AV's philosophy outside of set plays in the o-zone. Combined with the emphasis on 'safe play' the last two years I think the offensive instincts have been pretty much coached out of the current group.

Since then I think the laissez faire attitude the team has adopted since the Cup run has sunk in again. Guys are simply giving up on the forecheck. They don't play Tort's system, they are cutting corners and floating. It's subtle but definitely there if you know where to look. You see guys constantly making tentative, 'safe' plays.

Exacerbating this is Tort's reluctance to hold practices. IMO he has taken this further than his usual extreme with the whole 'west coast travel' excuse. It's hard to transition a whole group who is accustomed to play a certain way without lots of practice time.

Really I think our only hope right now is to change personnel who will play Tort's system as asked; or to have a young guy like Gulutzan convince Torts to actually practice offence.

 

[Scurr]

Thing is, in the early stages of adopting Tort's system, the D did bounce up into the play more. The team went to the front of the net more. That stuff has since disappeared, and for the most part the team has played like the AV version whenever they have struggled.

Like many coaches in the league, Tort's attitude towards offence is to 'get out of the player's way'. That was also AV's philosophy outside of set plays in the o-zone. Combined with the emphasis on 'safe play' the last two years I think the offensive instincts have been pretty much coached out of the current group.

Since then I think the laissez faire attitude the team has adopted since the Cup run has sunk in again. Guys are simply giving up on the forecheck. They don't play Tort's system, they are cutting corners and floating. It's subtle but definitely there if you know where to look. You see guys constantly making tentative, 'safe' plays.

Exacerbating this is Tort's reluctance to hold practices. IMO he has taken this further than his usual extreme with the whole 'west coast travel' excuse. It's hard to transition a whole group who is accustomed to play a certain way without lots of practice time.

Really I think our only hope right now is to change personnel who will play Tort's system as asked; or to have a young guy like Gulutzan convince Torts to actually practice offence.

When Ryan Kesler was scoring 40 goals and Mason Raymond learned how to stickhandle we had a skills coach that got a lot of talk…. whatever happened to that guy? Offense can be coached to the team but individual skills are really what end up getting it done.

 

[arsmaster*]

Thing is, in the early stages of adopting Tort's system, the D did bounce up into the play more. The team went to the front of the net more. That stuff has since disappeared, and for the most part the team has played like the AV version whenever they have struggled.

Like many coaches in the league, Tort's attitude towards offence is to 'get out of the player's way'. That was also AV's philosophy outside of set plays in the o-zone. Combined with the emphasis on 'safe play' the last two years I think the offensive instincts have been pretty much coached out of the current group.

Since then I think the laissez faire attitude the team has adopted since the Cup run has sunk in again. Guys are simply giving up on the forecheck. They don't play Tort's system, they are cutting corners and floating. It's subtle but definitely there if you know where to look. You see guys constantly making tentative, 'safe' plays.

Exacerbating this is Tort's reluctance to hold practices. IMO he has taken this further than his usual extreme with the whole 'west coast travel' excuse. It's hard to transition a whole group who is accustomed to play a certain way without lots of practice time.

Really I think our only hope right now is to change personnel who will play Tort's system as asked; or to have a young guy like Gulutzan convince Torts to actually practice offence.

You know who is a player that Torts should absolutely adore? Jannik Hansen. It's actually shocking to me Jannik hasn't figured it out.

He's fast and fearless, he should be attacking on the forecheck and hitting ad nauseum like he used to. Too bad for the comfort of his extension, because he hasn't been the same since 2011. I miss the guy who was the only one still trying in game 7 against the Bruins.

 

[Wheatley]

You know who is a player that Torts should absolutely adore? Jannik Hansen. It's actually shocking to me Jannik hasn't figured it out.

He's fast and fearless, he should be attacking on the forecheck and hitting ad nauseum like he used to. Too bad for the comfort of his extension, because he hasn't been the same since 2011. I miss the guy who was the only one still trying in game 7 against the Bruins.

You mean the only one not injured lol

 

[biturbo19]

It deeply saddens me to watch this team teetering on the brink of a proposed "rebuild", largely because Tortorella has run them into ground with his awful brand of no fun, no entertainment, no success hockey.

There are problems and poor decisions with the personnel and some spots that needed to be addressed and haven't been. But under a proper coach, i fully believe that this core could still compete for a Stanley Cup.

If this clown coming to town results in "blowing up" this team, that is unforgivable.

 

[fancouver]

Can't believe Raymond has 17 goals now.

Ex-Canucks seem to do well.

 

[Nucker101]

I'm pretty convinced that Torts was a FA hire.

 

[biturbo19]

Thing is, in the early stages of adopting Tort's system, the D did bounce up into the play more. The team went to the front of the net more. That stuff has since disappeared, and for the most part the team has played like the AV version whenever they have struggled.

Like many coaches in the league, Tort's attitude towards offence is to 'get out of the player's way'. That was also AV's philosophy outside of set plays in the o-zone. Combined with the emphasis on 'safe play' the last two years I think the offensive instincts have been pretty much coached out of the current group.

Since then I think the laissez faire attitude the team has adopted since the Cup run has sunk in again. Guys are simply giving up on the forecheck. They don't play Tort's system, they are cutting corners and floating. It's subtle but definitely there if you know where to look. You see guys constantly making tentative, 'safe' plays.

Exacerbating this is Tort's reluctance to hold practices. IMO he has taken this further than his usual extreme with the whole 'west coast travel' excuse. It's hard to transition a whole group who is accustomed to play a certain way without lots of practice time.

Really I think our only hope right now is to change personnel who will play Tort's system as asked; or to have a young guy like Gulutzan convince Torts to actually practice offence.

I think what we're seeing now looks pretty near identical to what the New York Rangers looked like the last couple years. Cut corners etc. or not, it's the same thing as the Rangers. Either that is the way Torts wants his team to play, or he is incapable of getting teams to play the way he actually wants them to.

Either way, the guy is a total dud, can't coach in today's NHL, and was a terrible hire from the very start.


At the end of the day, i agree to a large extent with what you're saying about the offense being coached out of this team...But i firmly disagree with the idea that the way to fix that is to try to bring it back with more coaching. It's clear in so many ways that this Canucks team is having absolutely ZERO fun playing hockey right now, they are not enjoying this environment on or off the ice, and they don't feel free to just go out and play hockey.

The Ducks post-Carlyle with Boudreau taking over are a shining example of what can happen when you hire a coach who doesn't insist on micromanaging every aspect of a player's game on the ice and trying to refine the whole thing down to such an overly rigid "system".

The best way to bring back the offensive instincts, is to free up players to just play hockey as best they can. Loosening the reins, not tightening them further.

 

[arsmaster*]

It deeply saddens me to watch this team teetering on the brink of a proposed "rebuild", largely because Tortorella has run them into ground with his awful brand of no fun, no entertainment, no success hockey.

Yeah because the two seasons that preceded this were so fun and full of entertainment.

 

[biturbo19]

Yeah because the two seasons that preceded this were so fun and full of entertainment.

There were some obvious down moments, flunking out of the playoffs obviously included. Some people grew tired of the same thing for so many years under AV. Some entitled whiners started claiming the Canucks weren't "entertaining" the last couple years because they weren't winning a cup.

But i actually still looked forward to watching Canucks games. They were still frequently enjoyable and fun to watch; something to get excited about.

It's basically a chore at this point, and it's not like some sort of sacrifice of entertainment value for the "greater good" of any real success. This team has performed to such a lousy standard this season that there is serious talk of a "rebuild". Boring ugly hockey, with worse results. There is absolutely nothing redeeming about that. It's just terrible.

 

[arsmaster*]

There were some obvious down moments, flunking out of the playoffs obviously included. Some people grew tired of the same thing for so many years under AV. Some entitled whiners started claiming the Canucks weren't "entertaining" the last couple years because they weren't winning a cup.

But i actually still looked forward to watching Canucks games. They were still frequently enjoyable and fun to watch; something to get excited about.

It's basically a chore at this point, and it's not like some sort of sacrifice of entertainment value for the "greater good" of any real success. This team has performed to such a lousy standard this season that there is serious talk of a "rebuild". Boring ugly hockey, with worse results. There is absolutely nothing redeeming about that. It's just terrible.

Really, I liked the style of game we were playing before the new year. It's degraded, but I really don't see it as any worse than last year. The Canucks haven't been exciting since January 7, 2012. I skipped through games on the PVR back then too.