The Armchair Coaching Thread [MOD WARNING in OP]

[earl grey]

the team looks slow...chasing the play too much...thats not the coach its the GM

 

[Wetcoaster]

The PK has been outstanding under Tortorella, I think he makes more rational lineup decisions than Vigneault, and unlike many, I like the way he leans on the team's best players.

As it was for a number of seasons under AV.

 

[Ernie]

As it was for a number of seasons under AV.

It's weird that a team that is so good on the PK has such a hard time holding leads at key times.

 

[Barney Gumble]

It's weird that a team that is so good on the PK has such a hard time holding leads at key times.

Poor or odd decisions like the 'broken record response' from me

(eg., defensive pairing of Edler-Bieksa in the last minute of the game where you know the Sharks are going to pull their goalie; having the Sedin line out there as well was just poor time management).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Torts system wasn't in place the two seasons of mediocrity that preceded this one. My guess, is the team overachieved in 2010-2011 and set the standard way too tall. This team was never really as good as it showed. Luck played a huge part in that season.

That was a once in 20 years run. Luck.

i agree with you to a point. 2011 was an overachievement in the sense that, no, we didn't have a team that was among the greatest of all time, which the record and the 1st in goals, GA, PP%, and high PK finish might suggest. that team was an excellent team, a true contender in every sense of the word, but not historically good.

and to a degree, luck played a role. until malhotra got hurt, almost everything that could go right went right. but there were other factors, and i think beyond personnel, confidence and momentum can't be ignored. those two things are the exact opposite, of course, of what we have now. think about it: our new captain had just inconceivably won both the hart and art ross trophies. we had a vezina calibre goalie who had a new lease on life having just been relieved of his captaincy. all six top six forwards had breakthrough years, and then we added two top four d-men, plus manny and raffi. that confidence and the momentum from 2010 took a huge hit during the boston series, and what remained after boston has slowly been chipped away at until it completely vanished during our second big losing streak this year.

 

[azashi]

Every major Canucks player is either older, injured, or both.

Kesler is at the tail end of a normal NHLers peak, but he's had so many injuries that he's been worn down earlier. The Sedins are almost in their mid-30s, so they're well past their peaks. Bieksa is past 30 and has had serious injuries. Sam with Hamhuis, though his injury history isn't as notable.

Of the Canucks top 10 scorers, only Garrison, Kassian, and Hansen are under 30, and only Kassian is under 25.

Secondary scoring and depth, which were borderline issues for the Canucks in 2010, are critical problems now.

The contending core is old, the Stanley Cup window is closed, and it's time to rebuild. Tanev, Kassian, and Stanton are the only skaters worth keeping under 25 (not counting prospects not in the league) and Lack is obviously the future. The Luongo contract makes rebuilding through free agency tough, and the prospect pool has been sapped by continual finishes high in the standings and trades for players. http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/vancouver_canucks/ doesn't look terrible, but that's not a contending core coming up the pipeline.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Secondary scoring and depth, which were borderline issues for the Canucks in 2010, are critical problems now.

Seems to be the critical problem isn't secondary scoring (of course it could be better) but primary scoring (aka the 1st line) is the critical problem now. Last night, "secondary scorers" were responsible for both goals. They pulled their weight - they shouldn't be expected to carry the team. The forwards making the 'big bucks' should be doing that.

 

[Soth]

a lot of people are blaming management and coaching.

To me it seems like the finger pointing has to be done at the guys who are not scoring any goals. Yes, tortz system could slow down scoring, but it shouldn't have this big of an effect.

Hey everyone got what they wanted right? AV is gone now, and look how much better we are with a new coach!! I said at the time that I'd be surprised if AV went longer than 1 week before getting another job offer.

If Gillis is fired I pretty much guarantee whoever replaces him will be significantly worse, and our team will suffer even more. Maybe I'll quote this post when that happens and we are in year 7 of a rebuild ala Toronto.

 

[azashi]

Seems to be the critical problem isn't secondary scoring (of course it could be better) but primary scoring (aka the 1st line) is the critical problem now.

Even if the Sedins return to 2010 levels - and I'm sorry but they won't because they're not just injured - they're old, I don't see a Stanley Cup coming to town. The secondary is worse than in 2010, the defence is worse than in 2010, and the coaching... well... this thread summarizes that.

But even with Scotty Bowman and 29-year-old Sedins, I don't think we're making it past the murderers row in the West - St. Louis, San Jose, Anaheim, and Chicago - never mind making it to the Cup Finals.

We either rebuild now or face the ignominy of a slow, inevitable descent into irrelevance and being forced to rebuild, like Calgary or Edmonton. All that's left is for management to embarrass itself chasing a white elephant in free agency (Heatley-Edmonton, O'Reilly-Calgary) and the cycle will be complete. We have assets now, useful assets like the Sedins and Kesler and Hamhuis and Bieksa, that can be used to accelerate the inevitable rebuild. Now I'm not saying all of them should go - God forbid, you don't want to end up like the Oilers with a bunch of kids trying to figure everything out on their own and get crushed under expectations - but I'd say three out of the five can go. My vote is to keep the Sedins, they've been amazing, loyal, and remarkably injury-resilient. They will fade and become burdens with their contracts in the coming years, but we won't be contenders looking for free agents by then anyway.

 

[arttk]

i agree with you to a point. 2011 was an overachievement in the sense that, no, we didn't have a team that was among the greatest of all time, which the record and the 1st in goals, GA, PP%, and high PK finish might suggest. that team was an excellent team, a true contender in every sense of the word, but not historically good.

and to a degree, luck played a role. until malhotra got hurt, almost everything that could go right went right. but there were other factors, and i think beyond personnel, confidence and momentum can't be ignored. those two things are the exact opposite, of course, of what we have now. think about it: our new captain had just inconceivably won both the hart and art ross trophies. we had a vezina calibre goalie who had a new lease on life having just been relieved of his captaincy. all six top six forwards had breakthrough years, and then we added two top four d-men, plus manny and raffi. that confidence and the momentum from 2010 took a huge hit during the boston series, and what remained after boston has slowly been chipped away at until it completely vanished during our second big losing streak this year.

I am not sure about that. That team I think was a function of how good the Sedins were. We could count on them for at a min, 1 goal a game and most of the time 2 goals a game. If anyone else pots a goal a game we easily had about 3 goals a game.

The D was playing great, we had a crazy duo of Lu and Schneids and enjoyed essentially no drop off in goal.

Looking back at some of the highlights, the way how the Sedins are being played has changed a lot as well. Just go and watch them, you see them along the wall making plays without the other team literally hugging them. They could float into the slot or in front of the net without being impeded.

The team really can only go as far as the Sedins can take them. We are essentially showing the same defensive competency as the past teams, the biggest difference is we don't have that 1 goal per game assurance from the top line and the pressure of scoring is basically crippling all the other guys.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Even if the Sedins return to 2010 levels - and I'm sorry but they won't because they're not just injured - they're old, I don't see a Stanley Cup coming to town. The secondary is worse than in 2010, the defence is worse than in 2010, and the coaching... well... this thread summarizes that.

But even with Scotty Bowman and 29-year-old Sedins, I don't think we're making it past the murderers row in the West - St. Louis, San Jose, Anaheim, and Chicago - never mind making it to the Cup Finals.

You didn't pose your response (to which I replied to) that way though. You argued the 'critical problems right now'.

Why proclaim the Blues as one of those elite teams when they've won exactly one more playoff round than us since 2010 (where we've won zero)? I rate the Kings a stiffer opponent than them (Kings centers >>>> Blues centers. Kings goalie >> Blues goalie). On paper, they look strong but so did we in the past.

 

[Orca Smash]

The system definitely doesn't encourage them to hit at all. They throw about 5-10 hits per game total.

Then he will get blamed for a system that is to stiff causing to many injuries.

 

[arsmaster*]

As it was for a number of seasons under AV.

You remember that series against LA? How was AV's PK in that series?

 

[Dana Murzyn]

Seems to be the critical problem isn't secondary scoring (of course it could be better) but primary scoring (aka the 1st line) is the critical problem now. Last night, "secondary scorers" were responsible for both goals. They pulled their weight - they shouldn't be expected to carry the team. The forwards making the 'big bucks' should be doing that.

I did some math, which is always a dubious exercise, and calculated that if D. Sedin and Burrows were scoring at their usual rate, based on career SH%, they'd have combined for 20 more goals by now.

Sounds like a decent amount until you realize it'd put the team at +4 goal differential for the year. In other words, this team would be mediocre even if Burrows and Sedin were scoring. Sigh.

 

[Barney Gumble]

I did some math, which is always a dubious exercise, and calculated that if D. Sedin and Burrows were scoring at their usual rate, based on career SH%, they'd have combined for 20 more goals by now.

Sounds like a decent amount until you realize it'd put the team at +4 goal differential for the year. In other words, this team would be mediocre even if Burrows and Sedin were scoring. Sigh.

If it had the same goaltending as last season - I venture to say we'd be roughly the same. Goaltending - as a whole - this season <<< Goaltending - as a whole - last season (and the season before that).

 

[arttk]

I did some math, which is always a dubious exercise, and calculated that if D. Sedin and Burrows were scoring at their usual rate, based on career SH%, they'd have combined for 20 more goals by now.

Sounds like a decent amount until you realize it'd put the team at +4 goal differential for the year. In other words, this team would be mediocre even if Burrows and Sedin were scoring. Sigh.

I suppose it's a domino effect when the top line isn't scoring. If the top line scores, then you tend to play with higher confidence because the secondary scoring guys know that don't HAVE to score. When the top line is not putting anything in the net, the pressure on the secondary scoring guys are much higher.

 

[azashi]

I proclaim the Blues on of the West's elite by virtue of their record. Just because they got knocked out by other elite teams in prior years doesn't mean they're not on that level, especially since they're a younger squad and getting better, and who just solved their most pressing issue - goal.

The Kings are Suttered. They'd do better but Sutter has done what Sutters do and that's overstayed his welcome and focused on defence to the point where they couldn't score on a soccer net defended by Cloutier.

 

[ZZZZZZZ]

The team is suffering because they are having difficulty adapting to how Torts wants them to play. Gillis has supplied the team with quality, skilled players. The players are professionals and should be able to eventually adapt or they will be moved out, but it is the coach's responsibility as a teacher to mentor those changes to a speed that the players can assimilate so as to prevent the team from suffering. This season, Torts has pushed too hard.

LOL....and what skilled players would those be?

Gillis has messed this team up so bad..........no NHL coach could fix this debacle.

Kesler has to go and the experiments with Booth,Kassian and Burrows are getting old.

The Sedins haven't scored in a dozen games and that's Tort's fault?


Time to clean house even if it takes 2 or 3 years.......watching this crappy team every game is like watching soccer..............boring and totally predictable.

No guts,no passion and no heart is what the Canucks are about.

 

[alternate]

I personally feel that the article is on to something. I don't like Torts' system much at all.

A couple of things I picked up during the Heritage Classic pre-game hype...on the radio it was said that Torts and the coaching staff had been beating it into the Sedins that they were spending too much time playing below the face-off dots and that they needed to start using the top half of the offensive zone more.

Then during the little clip of Torts' pre-game speech in the dressing room, he repeatedly spoke about "getting to the blue".

Basically, Torts wants the puck dumped in, recovered, sent back to the point for a shot on net with three forwards crashing for rebounds. Problem is, as I see it, this is an obsolete style of offensive hockey. Too many teams spend too much time in shooting lanes from the point to consistently get shots on net. And the "greasy" goals Torts wants so bad are usually from in close and on the ice or bottom portion of the net (closer you are, harder it is to get the puck up). Well, today's butterfly goalies don't let you beat them that way.

Add in the better teams usually having dmen that can handle dump ins more often than not, making it that much harder to get possession back in the first place. Obviously it's never black and white "just the coach's system" but I don't see this coach's system as one that's going to take full advantage of the skill sets on this roster. And that's not even getting into the BS they try to pass off as a power play, or not pressuring the puck above the face off circles in the defensive zone.

Generally I would think it's ridiculous to call for a coach's head after just 60 games. I'm fully aware it takes time to install a new system, get the right mix of players for said system, and that we've had a bit of a perfect storm with injuries and natural regression due to age. Still, if Gillis did the ballsy off season move and canned Torts and brought in someone with a bit newer school mentality, I'd support it.

 

[Ernie]

I personally feel that the article is on to something. I don't like Torts' system much at all.

A couple of things I picked up during the Heritage Classic pre-game hype...on the radio it was said that Torts and the coaching staff had been beating it into the Sedins that they were spending too much time playing below the face-off dots and that they needed to start using the top half of the offensive zone more.

Then during the little clip of Torts' pre-game speech in the dressing room, he repeatedly spoke about "getting to the blue".

Basically, Torts wants the puck dumped in, recovered, sent back to the point for a shot on net with three forwards crashing for rebounds. Problem is, as I see it, this is an obsolete style of offensive hockey. Too many teams spend too much time in shooting lanes from the point to consistently get shots on net. And the "greasy" goals Torts wants so bad are usually from in close and on the ice or bottom portion of the net (closer you are, harder it is to get the puck up). Well, today's butterfly goalies don't let you beat them that way.

Add in the better teams usually having dmen that can handle dump ins more often than not, making it that much harder to get possession back in the first place. Obviously it's never black and white "just the coach's system" but I don't see this coach's system as one that's going to take full advantage of the skill sets on this roster. And that's not even getting into the BS they try to pass off as a power play, or not pressuring the puck above the face off circles in the defensive zone.

Generally I would think it's ridiculous to call for a coach's head after just 60 games. I'm fully aware it takes time to install a new system, get the right mix of players for said system, and that we've had a bit of a perfect storm with injuries and natural regression due to age. Still, if Gillis did the ballsy off season move and canned Torts and brought in someone with a bit newer school mentality, I'd support it.

Good post. A couple of thoughts:

The one thing that AV never messed with, to his credit, was the Sedins' game. They went on plenty of cold streaks but always sorted it out on their own. It doesn't really seem like Tortorella trusts them, or, at the very least, expects his team to play in a generic way regardless of the strengths of the players involved.

As for Tortorella's system, I thought it was a good idea to bring him in to switch things up to see if he couldn't get more out of the roster. But ultimately, the style of hockey he coaches goes against what Gillis preached when he was brought in to replace Nonis. If the team is going to rebuild, Tortorella shouldn't be the guy to set the tone on the ice.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

2012 was mediocre. You could argue the team was probably the worst ever team to win the presidents trophy.

2013 only had 48 games. Look where this team was after 48 games. Pretty similar I'd guess.

Well I guess we were only the worst best team in the league during the regular season.

That was a great season. In the postseason we ran into a red hot Kings team with our two best goal scorers injured or missing. The same Kings team that swept the Blues immediately after

And when Daniel returned to the lineup we went 1-0-1 against them.

We're not at the same place now as we were 48 games in to the season. We can't just ignore one of the worst losing streaks we've ever had.

 

[arsmaster*]

Well I guess we were only the worst best team in the league during the regular season.

That was a great season. In the postseason we ran into a red hot Kings team with our two best goal scorers injured or missing. The same Kings team that swept the Blues immediately after

And when Daniel returned to the lineup we went 1-0-1 against them.

We're not at the same place now as we were 48 games in to the season. We can't just ignore one of the worst losing streaks we've ever had.

Great season, oh boy...how'd we score down the stretch that year. Don't give me any crap about Sedin either. That team was mailing it in for the playoffs and got rightfully tuned up.

The Kings caught lightning in a bottle for sure, but we weren't going anywhere. Limped in, hoping to engage a switch. Most prognosticators had us losing that series.

Who is ignoring the losing streak, certainly not me....what was this teams record after 48 games this year. That was my point, not surprised you didn't get it.

AV's teams endured worse losing streaks, with better teams, with younger talent.

 

[Tiranis]

I personally feel that the article is on to something. I don't like Torts' system much at all.

A couple of things I picked up during the Heritage Classic pre-game hype...on the radio it was said that Torts and the coaching staff had been beating it into the Sedins that they were spending too much time playing below the face-off dots and that they needed to start using the top half of the offensive zone more.

Then during the little clip of Torts' pre-game speech in the dressing room, he repeatedly spoke about "getting to the blue".

Basically, Torts wants the puck dumped in, recovered, sent back to the point for a shot on net with three forwards crashing for rebounds. Problem is, as I see it, this is an obsolete style of offensive hockey. Too many teams spend too much time in shooting lanes from the point to consistently get shots on net. And the "greasy" goals Torts wants so bad are usually from in close and on the ice or bottom portion of the net (closer you are, harder it is to get the puck up). Well, today's butterfly goalies don't let you beat them that way.

Add in the better teams usually having dmen that can handle dump ins more often than not, making it that much harder to get possession back in the first place. Obviously it's never black and white "just the coach's system" but I don't see this coach's system as one that's going to take full advantage of the skill sets on this roster. And that's not even getting into the BS they try to pass off as a power play, or not pressuring the puck above the face off circles in the defensive zone.

Generally I would think it's ridiculous to call for a coach's head after just 60 games. I'm fully aware it takes time to install a new system, get the right mix of players for said system, and that we've had a bit of a perfect storm with injuries and natural regression due to age. Still, if Gillis did the ballsy off season move and canned Torts and brought in someone with a bit newer school mentality, I'd support it.

I don't want to be a **** but in hockey terms your interpretations are completely off the mark.

Using the top half of the offensive zone means that they use it themselves, not pass the puck to the point. And it's certainly a valid criticism. And the Sedins haven't adjusted to it either. They're still consistently below the goal line but now teams have stopped following them around and instead just crowd the crease.

Watch some games of teams like Chicago and Boston, specifically players like Patrick Kane, Marian Hossa, David Krejci and Patrice Bergeron. They're excellent at using the top half of the offensive zone to cause confusion and open up new lanes.

Second, 'get it to the blue' just means get it to the net and get rebounds. Every single coach has a variation of that saying. It's generic pre-game crap. And I'm not sure where you got the idea that goals aren't scored that way anymore. They certainly are. Not to mention deflection goals... what's the last time we had one of those by one of our players?

 

[arttk]

Great season, oh boy...how'd we score down the stretch that year. Don't give me any crap about Sedin either. That team was mailing it in for the playoffs and got rightfully tuned up.

The Kings caught lightning in a bottle for sure, but we weren't going anywhere. Limped in, hoping to engage a switch. Most prognosticators had us losing that series.

Who is ignoring the losing streak, certainly not me....what was this teams record after 48 games this year. That was my point, not surprised you didn't get it.

AV's teams endured worse losing streaks, with better teams, with younger talent.

Well, the team wasn't playing the hardest but then Kesler was injured (7 months rehab) and Daniel was gone until the last 2 playoff games. The PP tanked with Marchand's submarine on Salo and injured Kesler.

Considering how top heavy we are, having our top2 players injured explains why we weren't playing to our potential.

 

[Defeatist*]

Yes, sather had it right on tort's system as did rangers fans. This season has been dreadfully boring to watch and it's part players sucking and part tort's system.

I wasn't a fan of the initial torts hiring, but was willing to give him a chance, but the initial shine of his early press conferences, etc has worn off on me and I'm on the fire torts/gillis train now!