The Armchair Coaching Thread [MOD WARNING in OP]

[Barney Gumble]

I proclaim the Blues on of the West's elite by virtue of their record. Just because they got knocked out by other elite teams in prior years doesn't mean they're not on that level, especially since they're a younger squad and getting better, and who just solved their most pressing issue - goal.

They couldn't advance in prior years because they couldn't score goals. Which team scored fewer goals than us in the playoffs last year (we were pretty inept offensively in the post-season)? The Blues. Yeah, they're scoring goals now (regular season) but we all know what happened to our teams (high scoring teams in the regular season) in the playoffs.

Which team did they lose the last two times in the playoffs? The Kings. They can still beat the Blues because of that style because of their edge in goaltending and bigger edge at center. Until they actually beat the Kings when it counts, I'd rank them weaker (and I don't even consider the Kings an elite team).

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Great season, oh boy...how'd we score down the stretch that year. Don't give me any crap about Sedin either. That team was mailing it in for the playoffs and got rightfully tuned up.

We weren't scoring well down the stretch, and that was to be expected given Daniel was out and Kesler was playing injured. But even still we were managing to eke out wins.

The Kings caught lightning in a bottle for sure, but we weren't going anywhere. Limped in, hoping to engage a switch. Most prognosticators had us losing that series.

Again, when Daniel returned to the lineup we went 1-0-1 against the Kings. If Daniel were healthy then we might very well have won that series.

Who is ignoring the losing streak, certainly not me....what was this teams record after 48 games this year. That was my point, not surprised you didn't get it.

AV's teams endured worse losing streaks, with better teams, with younger talent.

AV never had a 7-game losing streak, sorry. And what does our record after 48 games have to do with our season as a whole?

 

[arttk]

We weren't scoring well down the stretch, and that was to be expected given Daniel was out and Kesler was playing injured. But even still we were managing to eke out wins.



Again, when Daniel returned to the lineup we went 1-0-1 against the Kings. If Daniel were healthy then we might very well have won that series.



AV never had a 7-game losing streak, sorry. And what does our record after 48 games have to do with our season as a whole?

I thought we had a pretty epic losing streak during the Sundin year.

 

[arsmaster*]

AV never had a 7-game losing streak, sorry.

AV had an 8 game losing steak in January of 2009. Or are we going to ***** foot around this and say we had some loser points thrown in.

 

[Orca Smash]

Yes, sather had it right on tort's system as did rangers fans. This season has been dreadfully boring to watch and it's part players sucking and part tort's system.

I wasn't a fan of the initial torts hiring, but was willing to give him a chance, but the initial shine of his early press conferences, etc has worn off on me and I'm on the fire torts/gillis train now!

Some rangers fans wanted av fired at the begining of the season I wouldnt listen to them. They had a thread for it back in November.

Fans and media also have been complaining were terribly boring since 2012, tony g has been writing articles were as boring as watching paint dry for a few years now and these complaints have been seen on here for a few years now. Your not mentioning something that started with torts. Do people have such a short memory? Does nobody remember av complaints about us sitting back and defending one goal leads, and the av meme's about not scoring and defending 0-0 tie? Its going full circle on here now with a different coach and a new person to blame.

Our top line is 33 (sedins going on 34), many players start to struggle at this point att this stage, i think some fans need to consider were not the top team we used to be especially in this awful division were in with 3 of the best teams in the league and we have no young supporting cast to pick up the slack.

We can keep bringing in new coaches until people realize this. Its not like AV and torts dont know how to coach in this league, both are hitting walls with our club. This place was furious with av after the sweep last season. For me im not excusing the players themselves anymore for lackluster play.

 

[Shorthander]

I like many parts of Torts' system but there are some parts of it that I think need to be changed:

- Riding a select few players too hard. He squeezed a full season out of Sedins, Kesler, Santorelli, Richardson, Hamhuis, etc. before Christmas and now they were hurt, are hurt, or are currently lifeless on the ice. Honestly, I can't believe Kesler is still playing the way he is after all he's been through this season.

- The shoot first mentality. I agree that this team has always needed to shoot more, but that should have meant "don't pass up QUALITY shots" as players like H. Sedin have been known to do. Now he's forcing them to shoot sooner, from terrible angles (at the goal line, etc.) and surprise surprise, they're not scoring and they surrender puck possession doing this. Yes, they need to grind out the greasy goals sometimes but this is NOT playing to the strengths of the current roster. At some point you have to stop forcing the roster to adapt to the coach and have the coach adapt to the roster instead.

- Sedins playing the PK. I would throw them out there for a shift or two when we are taking a lot of penalties just to keep them skating and in the game. But they should not be out there with any regularity. And they should be starting in the offensive zone more. I don't think Torts has to coddle them as much as AV did but it just makes sense for them to start in the zone because they are not strong at rushing the puck up the ice.

- I don't know what is wrong the defence but something is amiss there and I can't help but suspect its the coaching. In past years, no matter how badly the defence sucked in October, they would ALWAYS right the ship in November. This team hasn't been able to hold a lead all season, it's like a perpetual October for us with the exception of our goaltending being excellent.

I'm optimistic for next year though. Things can't possibly get worse, can they? I can't imagine seeing another season with as many own-goals, 5 minute 5-on-3 PKs, 1 or 0 goal games, etc. At the very least, I think the Sedins and Burrows are just too good of players to not rebound from this.

 

[MrShift4]

I first need confirmation that Torts has a system

 

[Orca Smash]

Using the top half of the offensive zone means that they use it themselves, not pass the puck to the point. And it's certainly a valid criticism. And the Sedins haven't adjusted to it either. They're still consistently below the goal line but now teams have stopped following them around and instead just crowd the crease.

Watch some games of teams like Chicago and Boston, specifically players like Patrick Kane, Marian Hossa, David Krejci and Patrice Bergeron. They're excellent at using the top half of the offensive zone to cause confusion and open up new lanes.

Good point, so many goals in todays league are scored like this, pavelski is also someone who does this very well. You dont see top scoring teams cycle endlessly behind the boards to generate offense anymore like we do. Its quick passes to the top of the slot.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

AV had an 8 game losing steak in January of 2009. Or are we going to ***** foot around this and say we had some loser points thrown in.

Well I was relying on this article http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Blame+Tortorella+losing+spiral+Canucks+collapse+again+loss+Leafs/9486408/story.html

Which said it was the worst in 15 years. But anyways, you didn't answer the question.

Last season was the first "disappointing" season, used very loosely, and this season is substantially worse.

If AV was "mediocre" over the last two years, then Torts has been a train wreck.

 

[arsmaster*]

I don't want to be a **** but in hockey terms your interpretations are completely off the mark.

Using the top half of the offensive zone means that they use it themselves, not pass the puck to the point. And it's certainly a valid criticism. And the Sedins haven't adjusted to it either. They're still consistently below the goal line but now teams have stopped following them around and instead just crowd the crease.

Watch some games of teams like Chicago and Boston, specifically players like Patrick Kane, Marian Hossa, David Krejci and Patrice Bergeron. They're excellent at using the top half of the offensive zone to cause confusion and open up new lanes.

Second, 'get it to the blue' just means get it to the net and get rebounds. Every single coach has a variation of that saying. It's generic pre-game crap. And I'm not sure where you got the idea that goals aren't scored that way anymore. They certainly are. Not to mention deflection goals... what's the last time we had one of those by one of our players?

I have to agree with you. Especially in getting to the blue. Chicago might be the best team in the league at creating scrambles in the slot. That's how good teams get easy offense.

 

[Defeatist*]

Fans and media also have been complaining were terribly boring since 2012, tony g has been writing articles were as boring as watching paint dry for a few years now and these complaints have been seen on here for a few years now. Your not mentioning something that started with torts. Do people have such a short memory? Does nobody remember av complaints about us sitting back and defending one goal leads, and the av meme's about not scoring and defending 0-0 tie? Its going full circle on here now with a different coach and a new person to blame.

Oh yes, I wanted AV fired and wasn't a fan of his boring hockey lately either or sitting on leads. However, this season is no comparison in the amount of boredom games produce. This season has almost no entertainment value watching most games. I really wanted the canucks to hire an offensive coach over a shot blocking one.

 

[Tiranis]

Good point, so many goals in todays league are scored like this, pavelski is also someone who does this very well. You dont see top scoring teams cycle endlessly behind the boards to generate offense anymore like we do. Its quick passes to the top of the slot.

Honestly, it's even basic stuff like coming out of the corner along the outside of the face-off circle and curling in into the slot. Every junior player has that move in their pocket and I don't remember the last time I saw a Canuck do it.

If it's a coaching issue, it comes from AV's last two seasons here when he pretty much forbade players from passing the puck into the slot or making any sort of risky plays in the offensive zone.

 

[Orca Smash]

Oh yes, I wanted AV fired and wasn't a fan of his boring hockey lately either or sitting on leads. However, this season is no comparison in the amount of boredom games produce. This season has almost no entertainment value watching most games. I really wanted the canucks to hire an offensive coach over a shot blocking one.

I just dont see much difference as far as entertainment, last season was the same for us except it was 48 games... and it ended sooner.

We had 0-0 game vs Columbus last season and this place was nearing a meltdown. Thankfully cory saved that game for us and we scored a single shootout goal.

 

[arsmaster*]

Well I was relying on this article http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Blame+Tortorella+losing+spiral+Canucks+collapse+again+loss+Leafs/9486408/story.html

Which said it was the worst in 15 years. But anyways, you didn't answer the question.

Last season was the first "disappointing" season, used very loosely, and this season is substantially worse.

If AV was "mediocre" over the last two years, then Torts has been a train wreck.

I didn't answer the question. I did that on purpose, I was using one of your techniques.

AV's team never had 20 games to fall out of it last year. Their playoff performance sure showed where they likely would have been.

I'm not discrediting AV.

I'm just not blaming Torts' system for the failure of this team, which is what you want to do.

After 48 games, AV's Canucks had 2 more points than this team after 48 games. Just 2. The reason I brought up the 48 game mark, is because it didn't allow for things to regulate last year.

I don't think the Canucks would have performed as badly as they have this year, but I also didn't think the identical faces of the franchise would be as bad as they have been. It's hard to judge AV's 48 game season to this version of the Canucks.

I actually like how they play more, they just haven't gotten the results.

 

[Orca Smash]

Honestly, it's even basic like coming out of the corner along the outside of the face-off circle and curling in into the slot. Every junior player has that move in their pocket and I don't remember the last time I saw a Canuck do it.

If it's a coaching issue, it comes from AV's last two seasons here when he pretty much forbade players from passing the puck into the slot or making any sort of risky plays in the offensive zone.

The other thing to is teams as you mentioned let them pass behind the net as much as they want, then they easily protect the middle of the ice, the sedins only option then is to continue to cycle or ring it around the boards to our D where our shots from the point can be easily blocked.

Back in the day they may have been able to funnel it through players legs, or perfect saucer passes out front, but its not happening anymore and its become a painful non threatening offensive attack.

 

[Barney Gumble]

I actually like how they play more, they just haven't gotten the results.

Goaltending hasn't been as good lately - hardly coincidently about the same time as the frequency of 'losses'.

 

[arsmaster*]

Oh yes, I wanted AV fired and wasn't a fan of his boring hockey lately either or sitting on leads. However, this season is no comparison in the amount of boredom games produce. This season has almost no entertainment value watching most games. I really wanted the canucks to hire an offensive coach over a shot blocking one.

An offensive coach isn't going to get more goals out of Jannik Hansen and Chris Higgins in the top 6, it's also not going to place D. Sedin and Burrows' shots for them.

The style is fine. We were outplaying the opposition countlessly this season, problem.....the players not scoring.

 

[JuniorNelson]

The Sedins are so slow, the scheme needs to cover for them. They cannot carry the puck effectively any more because faster player (which is everybody) can just skate up and take the puck. If a stick check won't work, the tiniest bump sends them to the ice.

So, the top line can't lug the puck, what to do? The D can't carry the puck because there is no one coming back in case of a check. So, they loft the puck in and the RW goes after it.

This is not the problem, it is a symptom. The larger issue is that Torts got no management support. Again, this is a symptom. The larger issue is that Gillis cannot give management support because nobody wants to play here. If Gillis were able to attract free agents, this team would still be in Cup contention. If Gillis could do trades, Tortorella wouldn't be forced into the darker corners of coaching.

Tortorella was given an old team, designed for a different style. The starting goaltender was traded away but some great waiver pick-ups were added. Is this the usual path to NHL glory? Tortorella was obviously not even the first choice, here. It's makeshift all around!

The same guy that couldn't build a roster for a Cup return or alter a roster for an incoming coach is now entrusted with franchise altering trades and dismantling the team. He didn't become a Bowman overnight! As late as Friday the Canucks were still saying they wanted playoffs this season. This is a clueless comment by an upper management type in the org. Does no one think this is indicative?

Canucks are hopeless as they stand. Forever. They are poised at the edge of a giant precipice and they can't wait to jump in. Go Gillis!

 

[arsmaster*]

Goaltending hasn't been as good lately - hardly coincidently about the same time as the frequency of 'losses'.

The team also hasn't played as good as they were earlier in the season. The Blues game and the Minnesota game were dominated by us. We scored 2 goals....lost one in OT.

Even yesterday, look at the way they played in the 3rd period. Night and day from the 2nd period.

But you're right, goaltending yesterday wasn't good enough. My problem, as it has been all season, even prior to the new years is that we don't score enough.

We've scored more than 2 goals twice in the last 18 games (lost both times to boot).

 

[Canucker]

The other thing to is teams as you mentioned let them pass behind the net as much as they want, then they easily protect the middle of the ice, the sedins only option then is to continue to cycle or ring it around the boards to our D where our shots from the point can be easily blocked.

Back in the day they may have been able to funnel it through players legs, or perfect saucer passes out front, but its not happening anymore and its become a painful non threatening offensive attack.

They have become far too static in the offensive zone, plus the d rarely jumps into the play anymore to disrupt defensive systems. No movement makes it very easy to defend.

 

[Raincouver]

This isn't about the X's and O's, its about the Jimmies and Joes...


Torts, like AV, is trying to make Chicken Salad out of Chicken Poop.


This team is a collection of aging assets, third line performers, one-year wonders, and guys who peaked 2-3 seasons ago...and a bunch of No movement clauses.

Mike Gillis manages like an agent.

 

[arsmaster*]

They have become far too static in the offensive zone, plus the d rarely jumps into the play anymore to disrupt defensive systems. No movement makes it very easy to defend.

Canucks have eroded from one of the fastest teams in the league to one of the slowest, and I'm not willing to blame that on the coach.

Being static in the O-zone is so ****ing evident....watch any decent teams PP and it's night and day.

I think our d still does a good job of pinching in from the blueline, but I don't think they have many options to do anything with the puck because of how static the forwards seem to be. Both on the PP and 5 on 5.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

The team also hasn't played as good as they were earlier in the season. The Blues game and the Minnesota game were dominated by us. We scored 2 goals....lost one in OT.

It's almost as if...the entire team is having terrible trouble scoring!

SJ 2013 - 8 goals, 4 games...2 GPG
LA 2012 - 8 goals, 5 games...1.6 GPG
BOS 2011 - 8 goals, 7 games...1.14 GPG
SJ 2011 - 20 goals, 5 games...4 GPG
NSH 2011 - 14 goals, 6 games...2.33 GPG
CHI 2011 - 16 goals, 7 games...2.28 GPG

2013 BOS - 2.96 GPG
2013 CHI - 2.78 GPG
2012 LA - 2.85 GPG
2012 NJ - 2.46 GPG
2011 BOS - 3.24 GPG
2011 VAN - 2.32 GPG
2010 CHI - 3.54 GPG
2010 PHI - 3.3 GPG
2009 PIT - 3.29 GPG
2009 DET - 3.3 GPG

Take from that what you will, but the numbers do certainly say something here.

 

[Virtanen18]

Torts system wasn't in place the two seasons of mediocrity that preceded this one. My guess, is the team overachieved in 2010-2011 and set the standard way too tall. This team was never really as good as it showed. Luck played a huge part in that season.

That was a once in 20 years run. Luck.

Luck played a huge part in 2011? Haha. Luck puts you #1 in every stat and takes you to the SCF?

 

[Wetcoaster]

It's weird that a team that is so good on the PK has such a hard time holding leads at key times.

This was also a team under AV that almost never gave up a lead and particularly in the third period.