The All-Purpose Sprong Thread

[Gurglesons]

It can be pretty easily argued the guys Sullivan is using aren’t leading to Ws either. Sprong isn’t a fourth liner, that’s always been clear. However, it’s kind of comical their middle six is struggling like hell, which is where Sprong should be, yet Sullivan’s so determined to be right, he would rather keep losing and watching his middle six toil than at least try Sprong there.

And people can throw out the argument of what Sprong “deserves”, but once again ZAR deserves nothing he’s earned either. ZARs treatment is about the easiest counter anyone can give to posters claiming Sprong hasn’t earned this or that. It’s obviously favoritism towards ZAR, but that just jives with what I’m trying to point out...

Most coaches would try to unturn any stone they could when things get this desperate, so that should answer the obvious about how badly he wants Sprong gone.

So you want Kessel or Hornqvist on line 4 because those are the wingers you are advocating to move..

Sprong has to outplay Kessel or Simon. He hasn’t outplayed Simon. I think even if he did outplay Kessel they aren’t dropping him down to the fourth.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It can be pretty easily argued the guys Sullivan is using aren’t leading to Ws either. Sprong isn’t a fourth liner, that’s always been clear. However, it’s kind of comical their middle six is struggling like hell, which is where Sprong should be, yet Sullivan’s so determined to be right, he would rather keep losing and watching his middle six toil than at least try Sprong there.

And people can throw out the argument of what Sprong “deserves”, but once again ZAR deserves nothing he’s earned either. ZARs treatment is about the easiest counter anyone can give to posters claiming Sprong hasn’t earned this or that. It’s obviously favoritism towards ZAR, but that just jives with what I’m trying to point out...

Most coaches would try to unturn any stone they could when things get this desperate, so that should answer the obvious about how badly he wants Sprong gone.

Or maybe Sprong has done literally nothing in the NHL for any coach to think that he'd help a struggling line. Sprong isn't being sat because of Sullivan's ego, Sprong is being sat because he was bleeding goals when he wasn't playing and wasn't producing at all. Being terrible in a 4th line role isn't a way to get promoted in the lineup under a coach that doesn't trust you. At least with ZAR, he actually scored a goal, wasn't bleeding goals against and was giving good results in terms of possession stats.

I think it's blatantly obvious why Sullivan doesn't give Sprong a chance in the top-9: he doesn't think he's a good player. Seeing the results he has given on the 4th line this year, how can you possibly criticize him for having that view? People try to make it seem like Sullivan has a personal grudge with Sprong and that's why Sprong isn't playing higher, which I'm reading as people trying to dismiss his horrible play (for the most part) on the year.

With looking at Sprong's results on the year, especially when comparing them to when Sheary was used the same in 2015-2016, I have no clue how anyone can try to push that kind of argument. Has Sullivan misused Sprong this year? 100% yes, he's a terrible fit on the 4th line. Do you blame him for using him that way? 100% no, because Sprong has been terrible this year (for the most part) in a role where similar skilled players (big one being Sheary but also Wilson) have had success.

 

[Andy99]

I think I may be projecting my complaints for guys like Andy, WC and others on you. WC literally flat out said "I am not going to criticize Sprong's play as long as he's not playing with a skilled center". That is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If you're not dismissing Sprong's play based on his usage, then my rants aren't appropriate towards you

Like I said in my edit, if the pro-Sprong crowd would just say "he has been horrible this year, but considering his player type, he may do better with skilled players", I'd at least understand it. My counter would be Sprong's play this year has been so bad that he doesn't deserve that spot, but I'd at least understand it. People are legitimately dismissing his bad play because he's not playing with Crosby, Malkin or Brassard, and some take it even further to talking about Sprong playing specifically with Malkin. Not only that, but they treat that as the sole reason he's not performing and think that playing Sprong with Crosby, Malkin or Brassard would instantly make him good.

You mistake me and what many in the "pro" Sprong crowd are saying.... almost no one (maybe one exception) thinks that Sprong "deserves" to play higher, that he's shown himself to be good NHL player or anything like that...in fact, I've said he's not a NHL player right now and needs more development, ideally in the A but that ship has sailed...what most are saying is that given the issues with this team, including lack of depth scoring and Rust, Brass, etc having a hard time scoring, and Sprong's occasional good shift with someone like Malkin, why not give him a chance with Geno or Brass? We don't know what we have...he's not a finished product....people just want to throw him out like he's never going to develop...he's only 21...see Vrana....there are many example of players benched and "not getting it" in their first NHL year and then developing later...is this hard to understand?

 

[Empoleon8771]

You mistake me and what many in the "pro" Sprong crowd are saying.... almost no one (maybe one exception) thinks that Sprong "deserves" to play higher, that he's shown himself to be good NHL player or anything like that...in fact, I've said he's not a NHL player right now and needs more development, ideally in the A but that ship has sailed...what most are saying is that given the issues with this team, including lack of depth scoring and Rust, Brass, etc having a hard time scoring, and Sprong's occasional good shift with someone like Malkin, why not give him a chance with Geno or Brass? We don't know what we have...he's not a finished product....people just want to throw him out like he's never going to develop...he's only 21...see Vrana....there are many example of players benched and "not getting it" in their first NHL year and then developing later...is this hard to understand?

The problem is that Sprong hasn't shown anything in the NHL for anyone to seriously believe that he'd solve these problems. Having 1 good pass 10 games ago isn't evidence that he'll be able to help their scoring issues in the middle-6. The argument seems to me to be "why not play Sprong there since nothing else is working?", the response to that is "why put Sprong there over someone else?". Why not play ZAR in the top-9 to see if that helps? Why not call up Haggerty from WBS, who had a very strong preseason that earned him a NHL contract? Why not try Blueger as the 3C, since he leads WBS in points this year? The problem is that a lot of the arguments for Sprong are "why not Sprong?", instead of "why Sprong?". Saying Rust sucks at producing in the top-9 isn't an argument for why putting Sprong in Rust's spot would solve anything.

Please go to the Sprong thread...I've addressed you there and yes, Sprong has this same problem now because he's tentative about where he needs to be/positioning...we've seen ZAR a lot more in the top 9, and most of us know he's not going to help with the depth scoring...

No, Sprong has the same problem because he's not a fast skater and I'm starting to think he's a low IQ player. ZAR's problem is that he's a flat out bad skater, but his hockey IQ is good. Sprong has problems with lagging behind the play because he's not a smart player and he doesn't have the skating to compensate for that. ZAR will at least be in the right position some of the times, he won't be there always because of his skating, but he's smart enough to be able to position himself well in the offensive zone. That's not true with Sprong, which is why Sullivan has made a big issue about his puck support in the offensive zone (which is completely a problem of his).

 

[Ogrezilla]

It can be pretty easily argued the guys Sullivan is using aren’t leading to Ws either. Sprong isn’t a fourth liner, that’s always been clear. However, it’s kind of comical their middle six is struggling like hell, which is where Sprong should be, yet Sullivan’s so determined to be right, he would rather keep losing and watching his middle six toil than at least try Sprong there.

And people can throw out the argument of what Sprong “deserves”, but once again ZAR deserves nothing he’s earned either. ZARs treatment is about the easiest counter anyone can give to posters claiming Sprong hasn’t earned this or that. It’s obviously favoritism towards ZAR, but that just jives with what I’m trying to point out...

Most coaches would try to unturn any stone they could when things get this desperate, so that should answer the obvious about how badly he wants Sprong gone.

I think he has a very strong opinion of him, and he may be wrong. I don't think he wants him to fail. At least I don't think he's intentionally hurting his chances. Mostly because sully himself doesn't want to fail and needs people to be good. Even if sully hates him with all of his being, he still needs to win hockey games right now. If sully thought playing sprong more would help, he'd play him more.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think he has a very strong opinion of him, and he may be wrong. I don't think he wants him to fail. Mostly because sully himself doesn't want to fail and needs people to be good.

He wants him on another team. People can try to dance around that all they want I suppose, won’t change the reality that’s existed for well over a year now.

If he fails or not on another roster I doubt Sullivan cares.

I just find the argument Sullivan is afraid they will lose with Sprong in to be hilarious though, when they are losing anyway.

I get that’s how he thinks, but the reality of what’s happening anyway is still eye roll worthy.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He wants him on another team. People can try to dance around that all they want I suppose, won’t change the reality that’s existed for well over a year now.

If he fails or not on another roster I doubt Sullivan cares.

Even if sully hates him with all of his being, he still needs to win hockey games right now. If sully thought playing sprong more would help us win, he'd play him more.

Maybe his opinion of him as a player is clouded by hating him, but there's no way he's intentionally hurting our chances to win because he hates sprongs face. Not when his own seat is starting to warm up.

 

[Andy99]

The problem is that Sprong hasn't shown anything in the NHL for anyone to seriously believe that he'd solve these problems. Having 1 good pass 10 games ago isn't evidence that he'll be able to help their scoring issues in the middle-6. The argument seems to me to be "why not play Sprong there since nothing else is working?", the response to that is "why put Sprong there over someone else?". Why not play ZAR in the top-9 to see if that helps? Why not call up Haggerty from WBS, who had a very strong preseason that earned him a NHL contract? Why not try Blueger as the 3C, since he leads WBS in points this year? The problem is that a lot of the arguments for Sprong are "why not Sprong?", instead of "why Sprong?". Saying Rust sucks at producing in the top-9 isn't an argument for why putting Sprong in Rust's spot would solve anything.



No, Sprong has the same problem because he's not a fast skater and I'm starting to think he's a low IQ player. ZAR's problem is that he's a flat out bad skater, but his hockey IQ is good. Sprong has problems with lagging behind the play because he's not a smart player and he doesn't have the skating to compensate for that. ZAR will at least be in the right position some of the times, he won't be there always because of his skating, but he's smart enough to be able to position himself well in the offensive zone. That's not true with Sprong, which is why Sullivan has made a big issue about his puck support in the offensive zone (which is completely a problem of his).

Actually, I don't know if you watched him in WBS but he's a good skater...he's not a poor skater...he does lack hockey IQ and he's playing tentative because of it (also perhaps a lack of confidence) but he skates better than he's shown at times...he's not a burner but he has good enough skating for the NHL, unlike ZAR

 

[Empoleon8771]

Actually, I don't know if you watched him in WBS but he's a good skater...he's not a poor skater...he does lack hockey IQ and he's playing tentative because of it (also perhaps a lack of confidence) but he skates better than he's shown at times...he's not a burner but he has good enough skating for the NHL, unlike ZAR

He really isn't a good skater. He's not Maatta bad, but he's not that good of a skater. He's really poor on his edges and doesn't stop/start well. His top end speed is probably above average or good, but his acceleration isn't good and he has weak edgework.

 

[Pancakes]

Even if sully hates him with all of his being, he still needs to win hockey games right now. If sully thought playing sprong more would help us win, he'd play him more.

Maybe his opinion of him as a player is clouded by hating him, but there's no way he's intentionally hurting our chances to win because he hates sprongs face. Not when his own seat is starting to warm up.

It's this exactly. Sullivan is not a fan of Kessel but he still keeps playing him. He didn't like Cole either but Cole mostly got playing time while here.

Sullivan isn't gonna shoot himself in the foot just because he dislikes a player. If Sprong was helping, he'd be playing. He's not, so he isn't.

 

[NMK11]

It can be pretty easily argued the guys Sullivan is using aren’t leading to Ws either. Sprong isn’t a fourth liner, that’s always been clear. However, it’s kind of comical their middle six is struggling like hell, which is where Sprong should be, yet Sullivan’s so determined to be right, he would rather keep losing and watching his middle six toil than at least try Sprong there.

And people can throw out the argument of what Sprong “deserves”, but once again ZAR deserves nothing he’s earned either. ZARs treatment is about the easiest counter anyone can give to posters claiming Sprong hasn’t earned this or that. It’s obviously favoritism towards ZAR, but that just jives with what I’m trying to point out...

Most coaches would try to unturn any stone they could when things get this desperate, so that should answer the obvious about how badly he wants Sprong gone.

Could part of the problem be we don't have a traditional "middle six"? I think this team, and this board, expects two tops lines because of our dynamic duo. Maybe the staff doesn't see him as someone top line worthy yet, so it's bottom six instead of middle six. Still doesn't explain why they won't try him with Brassard more unless they're going to logjam Kessel there, but it could just point to more of a limitation in available spots for him: not good enough for the top 6, not a good fit for the bottom line.

I also love how I don't think I've seen a post from you in the past two weeks thats not criticizing ZAR. I agree with you, but I'm just imagining you smashing something every time you see him on the ice.

 

[vikingGoalie]

... Having 1 good pass 10 games ago ...

But how many opportunites did Sprong have to make one good pass to someone who would actually finish the pass?
(he did actually setup Shehan a couple of times, and he setup Simon's goal in Montreal).

Just saying he's batting 1000 when he's given a chance to play with a legit top 6 center, granted he only had 1 chance

 

[Empoleon8771]

But how many opportunites did Sprong have to make one good pass to someone who would actually finish the pass?
(he did actually setup Shehan a couple of times, and he setup Simon's goal in Montreal).

Just saying he's batting 1000 when he's given a chance to play with a legit top 6 center, granted he only had 1 chance

And he's batting like .047 in the larger sample size when playing on the 4th line, which isn't a way to get promoted higher in the lineup. If you're hitting .100 as a pinch hitter, teams aren't going to say "he'd be doing better if he was playing regularly".

 

[vikingGoalie]

Even if sully hates him with all of his being, he still needs to win hockey games right now. If sully thought playing sprong more would help us win, he'd play him more.

Maybe his opinion of him as a player is clouded by hating him, but there's no way he's intentionally hurting our chances to win because he hates sprongs face. Not when his own seat is starting to warm up.

See Ian Cole.

He probably would've run Phil Kessel out of town too if it wasn't for the fact that his blinders couldn't hide the fact that Phil is a top level talent in the league.

 

[vikingGoalie]

And he's batting like .047 in the larger sample size when playing on the 4th line, which isn't a way to get promoted higher in the lineup. If you're hitting .100 as a pinch hitter, teams aren't going to say "he'd be doing better if he was playing regularly".

ok i was being slightly sarcastic, but you do realize that this isn't a batter all by himself trying to hit the ball. He has to have a player to pass to that will finish to get an A. As a sniper sorta player you realize they are 10x more effective when someone else can actually get him the puck.

Sprong might actually be able to work with Grant some even though Grant is a plug, he is still better then the corpse of Cullen that Sprong was with for most of his playing time.

Thing is we agree that Sprong has done nothing to force Sullivan's hand.
But I would as you this, do you think this is the way you develop young offensive talent?

@Ogrezilla i do think Sully is now feeling the heat as there is a non zero chance that he is looking for a new job before the end of the season. But why on earth would you not give the kid a shift or two with geno when the game is out of hand? Heck why not at least try those two together in practice!?!? The lines used in practice this year, has Sprong ever been used with a top 6 center (or Brassard) in practice outside of preseason? If you run half a practice putting sprong up there does that *really* hurt your chances of winning? I mean I really think Sullivan has decided that Sprong is not a player he wants on his team. We have seen him do this before...

 

[dogthateats]

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sheahan just scored a goal totally on his own while playing with the same garbage Sprong plays with. Still waiting for Sprong to handle that feat.

Apparently that makes up for Sprong being over twice as productive.

I mean nobody actually evaluates players' offense that way in any other context, but sure, why not for this one.

 

[vikingGoalie]

lol Sullivan was reading my post on hfboards....

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What’s funny is I just looked at Roslovic’s TOI and it is literally averaging lower than Sprong and he has a goal..

@Soggy Biscuit

With that type of usage maybe it isn’t as outlandish as I think..

Is he any more productive?

I realize that goals are the ad hoc offensive stat the anti-Sprong brigade is going for here, but maybe we could step out of the box a little and recognize that points are the primary stat people use to evaluate offensive players.

 

[Gurglesons]

Is he any more productive?

I realize that goals are the ad hoc offensive stat the anti-Sprong brigade is going for here, but maybe we could step out of the box a little and recognize that points are the primary stat people use to evaluate offensive players.

He has more points and a goal.

At this point I’d just play Sprong and scratch a Kessel because he blows right now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He has more points and a goal.

Roslovic has 2 more points in 50 more minutes TOI. With 64% OZ starts.

And Roslovic's a hell of a prospect himself.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I think Sprong should be tested on one of the two lines for 3 games or so even if it makes no sense, because we're struggling anyways and I think it's time to truly see what he has. My second thought is that no, there really isn't any sense behind doing that (even though I do still think they should). You don't have to score on that fourth line, but you have to show something as far as why you don't belong on it. He hasn't even once IMO.

I think there are a lot of questions to be asked about this player: Can he pass, or at least give and go? I haven't seen anything this year to indicate he's even a capable passer or has any kind of vision that's mentionable. Can he impose his will on NHL-caliber competition when he's not just winding it up himself and trying to skate 2/3 of the length of the rink? He has a really nice shot and seems to be a good skater, but it seems like perhaps they're trying to get him to play a more well-rounded game, which I don't think is a bad thing for a player of his age and current trajectory, but it seems like it's hurt him. I have a personal feeling that there's a struggle between letting him play his game and reigning in a young guy who wants the puck all the time, and to this point he's played ball for better or worse. I just don't think he's shown that he's anywhere good enough at this level to be given free reign out there, so obviously they are going to step in and groom him to the max to make him a more effective all around player.

That all said, you might as well give him a chance. It's only (very) temporary unless something ignites and if by some miracle it works, well we need forward depth honestly. Pushing someone down and/or back to WBS is something the team really could use.

 

[Gurglesons]

Roslovic has 2 more points in 50 more minutes TOI. With 64% OZ starts.

And Roslovic's a hell of a prospect himself.

A goalz he has has a goalz.

Roslovic is being treated just like Sprong on a contender and Jets fans understand it.

You LOSE Soggy I’ve finally found a comparable prospect being treated like Sprong!!!!

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

A goalz he has has a goalz.

Roslovic is being treated just like Sprong on a contender and Jets fans understand it.

You LOSE Soggy I’ve finally found a comparable prospect being treated like Sprong!!!!

Finding a prospect being treated like Sprong wasn't the issue. It was finding a scoring line prospect being used like Sprong and outperforming him. That ain't happening - even with a great prospect like Roslovic.

And Roslovic isn't being treated like trade bait to boot.

 

[Gurglesons]

Finding a prospect being treated like Sprong wasn't the issue. It was finding a scoring line prospect being used like Sprong and outperforming him. That ain't happening - even with a great prospect like Roslovic.

And Roslovic isn't being treated like trade bait to boot.

Nah dude. Found one. You lost.