Pre-Game Talk: The All Purpose Off Day Thread - It's Here!

[Sidney the Kidney]

yeah, the thing is Rust is also better than him on the scoring line.

Eh, I don't think we've seen Sprong get enough of an opportunity beside Crosby or Malkin to say that definitively. Rust's best point total so far is 38 points (albeit he missed over 10 games). I have a feeling if Sullivan committed to Sprong next to Geno or Sid for a full 82 games, he'd surpass 38 points.

 

[Tom Hanks]

yeah, the thing is Rust is also better than him on the scoring line.

He’s improving his production each year. Was on pace for 45 points last season. 5th in total ES scoring and 4th in ES PPG only behind Phil, Sid, Geno.

Not sure I’d want to give him less minutes.

 

[Gurglesons]

Eh, I don't think we've seen Sprong get enough of an opportunity beside Crosby or Malkin to say that definitively. Rust's best point total so far is 38 points (albeit he missed over 10 games). I have a feeling if Sullivan committed to Sprong next to Geno or Sid for a full 82 games, he'd surpass 38 points.

Hm. I don’t know. That’s a lot of ES scoring.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Eh, I don't think we've seen Sprong get enough of an opportunity beside Crosby or Malkin to say that definitively. Rust's best point total so far is 38 points (albeit he missed over 10 games). I have a feeling if Sullivan committed to Sprong next to Geno or Sid for a full 82 games, he'd surpass 38 points.

at even strength? I doubt it. Just as an idea of how good Rust has been, he's 2nd in the league just behind Guentzel for ES playoff goals over the last three years; ahead of Sid, Geno, and Phil. The guy is really freaking good.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Eh, I don't think we've seen Sprong get enough of an opportunity beside Crosby or Malkin to say that definitively. Rust's best point total so far is 38 points (albeit he missed over 10 games). I have a feeling if Sullivan committed to Sprong next to Geno or Sid for a full 82 games, he'd surpass 38 points.

So would Rust.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So would Rust.

Also this. Good point

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think Rust's ceiling as an offensive player is significantly less than Sprong's. Obviously the unknown is whether Sprong will actually hit that ceiling or not, so right now Rust clearly has the higher floor. But if each hit their max ceilings, I think Sprong out-produces Rust by quite a bit.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think Rust's ceiling as an offensive player is significantly less than Sprong's. Obviously the unknown is whether Sprong will actually hit that ceiling or not, so right now Rust clearly has the higher floor. But if each hit their max ceilings, I think Sprong out-produces Rust by quite a bit.

Counting powerplay time, I'd agree. At even strength I'm far less confident in that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Counting powerplay time, I'd agree. At even strength I'm far less confident in that.

Well we'll never know for certain what Sprong can do at even strength if he's getting 10 minutes a night next to Cullen and Sheahan. So unless Sullivan actually plays him consistently with Sid or Geno, this will be useless speculation on our part.

 

[Tom Hanks]

If Cullen and Sheahan are going to make up the C and LW on that line, then Rust. It can be used as a proper defensive line since all three guys are capable defensively, but also all three aren't devoid of offensive talent.

Sprong just seems like a fish out of water on a line that includes two guys who will likely see 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone. That's literally the last line I'd think he'd fit on.

Sheahan and Cullen never have had 70% DZS here ever. In real terms that line probably has 10 faceoffs per game. The DZS are probably closer to 60% and that doesn’t take into account any neutral zone starts so it’s probably 5 at most. I’d imagine if it’s late in a game Rust replaces Sprong so it might be even less.

Let’s say it’s 4 starts in the defensive zone for Sprong per game. He’ll probably get close to that in the offensive zone. I don’t see it as a huge issue.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well we'll never know for certain what Sprong can do at even strength if he's getting 10 minutes a night next to Cullen and Sheahan. So unless Sullivan actually plays him consistently with Sid or Geno, this will be useless speculation on our part.

Then he needs to show he deserves more chances when he gets them now. That's how this works. We aren't going to gift wrap him a guaranteed spot over Kessel, horny, or rust. People will get hurt or be in the box or whatever. Take advantage of those chances. Score some on the second powerplay. Create some chances on the fourth line, it's not like he's with bums.

He's not in an ideal development scenario, but that's what happens when you aren't in a development league anymore. Especially trying to make it on a contender. Rust is still developing too, so it's not like we are looking to demote him.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sheahan and Cullen never have had 70% DZS here ever. In real terms that line probably has 10 faceoffs per game. The DZS are probably closer to 60% and that doesn’t take into account any neutral zone starts so it’s probably 5 at most. I’d imagine if it’s late in a game Rust replaces Sprong so it might be even less.

Let’s say it’s 4 starts in the defensive zone for Sprong per game. He’ll probably get close to that in the offensive zone. I don’t see it as a huge issue.

It was an exaggeration. But both guys (Cullen and Sheahan) were around 36% OZone/64% DZone in usage for the Pens. If that continues and Sprong is on their line, that means he's either getting a ridiculous amount of DZone minutes, or he's on the bench and getting like half their total minutes. Neither are exactly conducive to producing offensively.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It was an exaggeration. But both guys (Cullen and Sheahan) were around 36% OZone/64% DZone in usage for the Pens. If that continues and Sprong is on their line, that means he's either getting a ridiculous amount of DZone minutes, or he's on the bench and getting like half their total minutes. Neither are exactly conducive to producing offensively.

Or if rust takes those extra d shifts, sprong may be taking rusts shifts with brassard.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Or if rust takes those extra d shifts, sprong may be taking rusts shifts with brassard.

Then why not just play Rust with Cullen and Sheahan if he's going to be used in those defensive situations? Why upset the lines by switching just for defensive starts, instead of just putting Sprong with Brassard and Rust with Cullen?

Rust's already proven he can produce when he's the main offensive player on his line. He's not a guy that needs to play with star offensive players to produce. Why not put him with Cullen and Sheahan, and put Sprong with an offensive center who can best utilize his skillset?

 

[Tom Hanks]

It was an exaggeration. But both guys (Cullen and Sheahan) were around 36% OZone/64% DZone in usage for the Pens. If that continues and Sprong is on their line, that means he's either getting a ridiculous amount of DZone minutes, or he's on the bench and getting like half their total minutes. Neither are exactly conducive to producing offensively.

If he’s averaging 4 starts in the defensive zone a game it doesn’t mean it’ll stay there. He’ll be against easier opponents and he has good players on his line and both are great at faceoffs.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Then why not just play Rust with Cullen and Sheahan if he's going to be used in those defensive situations? Why upset the lines by switching just for defensive starts, instead of just putting Sprong with Brassard and Rust with Cullen?

Rust's already proven he can produce when he's the main offensive player on his line. He's not a guy that needs to play with star offensive players to produce. Why not put him with Cullen and Sheahan, and put Sprong with an offensive center who can best utilize his skillset?

Because rust is currently a better player who should probably be getting more ice time. And we want his offensive game to keep improving too.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Because rust is currently a better player who should probably be getting more ice time.

Same applies to Simon and how quite a few veterans are currently better players than him. Doesn't stop Sully from putting him next to Sid, does it?

That's the whole point about spreading talent around. You don't need to put all your best players on your top two lines and all your worst players on your 4th line. You should be looking to maximize each player's skillset, and IMO, Rust's skillset works better with Cullen/Sheahan than Sprong's does (not to mention Rust showed no chemistry last year with Brassard anyway).

 

[Ogrezilla]

Same applies to Simon and how quite a few veterans are currently better players than him. Doesn't stop Sully from putting him next to Sid, does it?

That's the whole point about spreading talent around. You don't need to put all your best players on your top two lines and all your worst players on your 4th line. You should be looking to maximize each player's skillset, and IMO, Rust's skillset works better with Cullen/Sheahan than Sprong's does (not to mention Rust showed no chemistry last year with Brassard anyway).

Sure. But based on what we've seen so far, rusts skillset also works better with everyone else. He's just better at NHL hockey at this point in time outside of probably the powerplay.

And trying to base anything about brassards chemistry on last year is beyond silly. The sample of healthy hockey for brass is just way too small.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sure. But based on what we've seen so far, rusts skillset also works better with everyone else. He's just better at NHL hockey at this point in time outside of probably the powerplay.

You can't say that, though, because they haven't had the same sort of opportunity. It's not like Sprong got Rust's minutes and linemates, but failed to produce.

This would be like arguing that Carl Hagelin was a better player than Jake Guentzel when Guentzel only had about 10 games under his belt because Hagelin had proven more at that point.

When both were given equal opportunity, Guentzel showed his ability. Sprong hasn't been given that opportunity yet for you to determine whether or not he'd be a better player this year than Rust.

And trying to base anything about brassards chemistry on last year is beyond silly. The sample of healthy hockey for brass is just way too small.

The point just was that Rust didn't exactly look like he clicked with Brassard. For instance, Sheary and Brassard actually seemed to click and created some chances. Rust didn't seem to fit on that line with those two.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Rust last season seemed pretty good with Brassard to me. Also looked really good together in the pre season.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Ogrezilla]

You can't say that, though, because they haven't had the same sort of opportunity. It's not like Sprong got Rust's minutes and linemates, but failed to produce.

This would be like arguing that Carl Hagelin was a better player than Jake Guentzel when Guentzel only had about 10 games under his belt because Hagelin had proven more at that point.

When both were given equal opportunity, Guentzel showed his ability. Sprong hasn't been given that opportunity yet for you to determine whether or not he'd be a better player this year than Rust.



The point just was that Rust didn't exactly look like he clicked with Brassard. For instance, Sheary and Brassard actually seemed to click and created some chances. Rust didn't seem to fit on that line with those two.

Great, he should play well enough to earn more time with them then. Also it's not like guentzel, because it didnt take 10 games for guentzel to show far more than sprong did in his 8 with Sid.

And I know it's just preseason but rust and brassard have looked great together.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Great, he should play well enough to earn more time with them then. Also it's not like guentzel, because it didnt take 10 games for guentzel to show far more than sprong did in his 8 with Sid.

I mean, Guentzel had a 2 goal debut (like Sprong), then proceeded to produce only 2 goals and 3 assists in his next 12 games. It's not like he tore it up, either. In fact, Guentzel's first 20 games only saw him produce 11 points. Minus that 2-goal debut, and that's 4 goals and 9 points in his first 19 games.

So I'm not sure why you think Guentzel had proven so much more than Sprong when each was first called up. Both had a hot start, followed by a cold stretch over the next 10 or so games.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I mean, Guentzel had a 2 goal debut (like Sprong), then proceeded to produce only 2 goals and 3 assists in his next 12 games. It's not like he tore it up, either. In fact, Guentzel's first 20 games only saw him produce 11 points. Minus that 2-goal debut, and that's 4 goals and 9 points in his first 19 games.

So I'm not sure why you think Guentzel had proven so much more than Sprong when each was first called up. Both had a hot start, followed by a cold stretch over the next 10 or so games.

11 in his first 21 is quite good. And I'm not saying sprong was bad. But it wasn't as good as Jake. And he's got tougher competition than Jake did at lw. By a lot.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

11 in his first 21 is quite good. And I'm not saying sprong was bad. But it wasn't as good as Jake. And he's got tougher competition than Jake did at lw.

But that's not the point I am making. The Pens had just won the Cup with LW depth of Sheary, Kunitz, Hagelin (the latter two being veterans). Yet they put Guentzel in a position to succeed. They didn't bury him on the 4th line behind the vets until he "proved" he should play on a scoring line. They allowed him to play with either Sid, Geno, or Bonino and he ultimately found his groove. I doubt he would have done so getting 10 minutes a night next to Cullen on the 4th line.

 

[Ogrezilla]

But that's not the point I am making. The Pens had just won the Cup with LW depth of Sheary, Kunitz, Hagelin (the latter two being veterans). Yet they put Guentzel in a position to succeed. They didn't bury him on the 4th line behind the vets until he "proved" he should play on a scoring line. They allowed him to play with either Sid, Geno, or Bonino and he ultimately found his groove. I doubt he would have done so getting 10 minutes a night next to Cullen on the 4th line.

Actually they sent him to wbs because we didn't have a spot for him. He came back because of injuries and played well enough to keep his spot. It's just not the same situation. Seriously just read those names again compared to who sprong is trying to displace. Kessel, horny and rust vs hagelin kunitz and sheary. It's not even in the same realm.