The All Purpose "Jack Johnson Sucks" Thread

[Sidney the Kidney]

He's no longer an effective PPQB, that's the biggest reason why his point totals fell. Look at the years he put up 30-40 points, he consistently had half of those points on the powerplay. Johnson over his entire career has been a really bad ES point producer, his best ES season was 23 points in 2009-2010. He has been below 20 ES points in all but 3 seasons in the NHL.

But that's still my point about how diminished his puck skills have become. At one time, he must have been above average with the puck on his stick to be effective even on the PP. I mean, even if you gave Rob Scuderi top PP unit minutes he'd still not get more than about 20 points because of how limited he is. That's the level of puck skills Johnson is displaying this season, and that's the part that took me by surprise.

 

[TNT87]

My hope was that a change in teams and coaching and he could be at least serviceable. He can't even be that. I thought a new start could help him but it clearly hasn't. He's worse than I could ever imagine. I will say he's pretty darn good at colliding players into the goalie though.

When does Seattle come into the league? Any chance they could send him there now?

 

[K Fleur]

In the same poll as "Jack Johnson will thrive as a top-4 defenseman once he gets settled in".

Johnson's cap hit isn't high enough for the Penguins to have to buy him out, because there will at least be a team willing to take him on to get an asset. The worst case scenario is that they'd have to keep him for 2 years and then move him. The Penguins traded Michalek in 2012 with taking no salary back after 2 bad years by him with 3 years left on his deal, I really don't think trading Johnson with 3 years left on his deal would be difficult. I'm really curious to see the justification from people who think the Penguins will have to add a significant asset on top of JJ for why they think that, because there aren't many trades of guys making similar money to Johnson that suggest that.

You spent all summer defending this signing when the writing has been on the wall with Johnson for years. You'll have to excuse me if I don't really give a f*** about your opinion on this

Dude's always been ass, and any competent GM is staying the f*** away.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dude you spent all summer defending this signing when the writing has been on the wall with Johnson for years.

Dude's always been ass, and any competent GM is staying the **** away. Also Michalek was traded during a time when team's still valued that type of defenseman. There is no value in a JJ type player and I think everybody (GM's included) realize this.

So Jim Rutherford isn't competent now? Interesting talk, I wonder if you can tell that to the 3 times he's been engraved into the Stanley Cup. And if that's the case, it's super interesting that guys like Girardi, Coburn, Gudbranson and McQuaid are still in the NHL.

Where's your evidence that the Penguins will need to buy out Johnson? I'll just make the question nice and easy. I have a boatload of evidence that GMs are stupid and love players like Johnson, seeing how guys like Girardi get $3 million deals after being bought out and guys like Coburn are returning 1st round picks as rentals.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't really give a **** about your opinion on this

Wow, how mature of you.

 

[MrBrightside]

One of the most disturbing facts is that there's zero evidence that Sullivan sees Johnson as a problem. The average time on ice for Pens' D season-to-date:

Letang - 26:15
Dumoulin - 21:02
Johnson - 18:56
Maatta - 18:47
Riikola - 16:55
Petterson - 16:53
Oleksiak - 15:52

So yeah, JJ is getting top-4 minutes. There's no effort being made to shelter him at all.

 

[MrBrightside]

So Jim Rutherford isn't competent now? Interesting talk, I wonder if you can tell that to the 3 times he's been engraved into the Stanley Cup. And if that's the case, it's super interesting that guys like Girardi, Coburn, Gudbranson and McQuaid are still in the NHL.

Chiarelli's name is on the Cup too...does that make him a good GM?

Rutherford did a lot of good stuff the first couple of years here. The last two years, not so much.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Chiarelli's name is on the Cup too...does that make him a good GM?

Rutherford did a lot of good stuff the first couple of years here. The last two years, not so much.

Peter Chiarelli's name was on a cup from 2011. JR's name was on a cup from 2016 and 2017, that's a big difference.

The point is that saying guys like Johnson "aren't valued in the NHL" anymore is just absolutely baseless and false. People either assume that GMs are way smarter than they are or that advanced stats have a higher prevalence than they actually do. GMs love guys like Gudbranson, Girardi and Coburn because they view them as "safe" players. It's the same reason scrubs like Wilson play often, coaches and GMs love safe players. They won't have to buy out Johnson because some idiot GM will think the same idiot thing JR thought when he was signing Johnson to that contract.

I believe I read a rumor from a little while ago that the Panthers were interested in bringing back Gudbranson. Gudbranson is somehow way worse than Johnson, like to the point where it's incomprehensible how he posts this bad of numbers. Yet despite that, he still signed a 3 year, $4 million deal a year ago and GMs want to acquire him right now. The point is that GMs are stupid, and there are only a handful of GMs that highly value analytics at this point. There are GMs in the NHL today that have been GMs since the 1990s, do you really think they're going to throw aside how they rate players for new analytics?

 

[brewski420]

In the same poll as "Jack Johnson will thrive as a top-4 defenseman once he gets settled in".

Johnson's cap hit isn't high enough for the Penguins to have to buy him out, because there will at least be a team willing to take him on to get an asset. The worst case scenario is that they'd have to keep him for 2 years and then move him. The Penguins traded Michalek in 2012 with taking no salary back after 2 bad years by him with 3 years left on his deal, I really don't think trading Johnson with 3 years left on his deal would be difficult. I'm really curious to see the justification from people who think the Penguins will have to add a significant asset on top of JJ for why they think that, because there aren't many trades of guys making similar money to Johnson that suggest that.

I voted that way mainly because I find it hard to imagine any team trade for him solely without such an incentive. You are much more informed on teams that may do it so I will defer. But because it hasn't happened could be for that very reason that JJ is not worth it for another team without that incentive and the team trading (the Pens) cannot afford or want do what it takes.

edit: I suppose my vote should be he is really not tradable??

 

[Peat]

Since we're going back and seeing what we said...

"As long as they keep his minutes low-ish until he earns them back it's all good."

They didn't. Kinda the opposite. If I'd realised they thought he was a guy who could take the 3rd most minutes I'd have been a lot more despondent. All my optimism was based on the idea they'd use him in a lesser role than he'd previously had and things would be okay in that lesser role.

Oops.


And I'm honestly not sure what its going to cost to move him.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

There are GMs in the NHL today that have been GMs since the 1990s, do you really think they're going to throw aside how they rate players for new analytics?

I like analytics but I get the need for balance. The eye test will always be more important. This ain’t analytics. I guess it’s a new “metric” but GF stats aren’t underlying and are pretty basic. Like a way better +/- stat.

JJ is an absolute anchor on the Penguins winning the most important battle— the one on the scoreboard.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I voted that way mainly because I find it hard to imagine any team trade for him solely without such an incentive. You are much more informed on teams that may do it so I will defer. But because it hasn't happened could be for that very reason that JJ is not worth it for another team without that incentive and the team trading (the Pens) cannot afford or want do what it takes.

edit: I suppose my vote should be he is really not tradable??

I think the problem is that I view GMs much lower than you seem to

Unless you have a relatively new GM (as in new to the NHL), I'm not sure how highly GMs will value analytics. I don't think GMs like Murray, JR, Holland, Bowman and Lou value analytics highly. I do think some GMs value analytics highly, but I think that is far fewer than the GMs who trust their eyes more. I think a majority of GMs are still old school, and you'll only see that changing GMs like Dubas and Chayka replace GMs like Holland and Murray. I think there will be a team that would trade for Johnson for that reason, GMs have not developed like advanced stats have developed.

It's why there are a bunch of GMs who still value grit, toughness and stuff like that. It's why you keep seeing guys like Girardi, Coburn, Alzner and Gudbranson getting big contracts. It's why GMs try to trade for guys like Gudbranson (who is a downright horrendous player) with a big contract.

I like analytics but I get the need for balance. The eye test will always be more important. This ain’t analytics. I guess it’s a new “metric” but GF stats aren’t underlying and are pretty basic. Like a way better +/- stat.

JJ is an absolute anchor on the Penguins winning the most important battle— the one on the scoreboard.

But it has always been that way because Johnson has always been a minus player, outside of 1 or 2 years. That hasn't stopped him from getting big contracts or from being used as a top pair defenseman.

 

[Pens x]

You spent all summer defending this signing when the writing has been on the wall with Johnson for years. You'll have to excuse me if I don't really give a **** about your opinion on this

Dude's always been ass, and any competent GM is staying the **** away.

This. It’s okay to admit the GM made a horrible mistake. You don’t need to try to blindly defend every decisio made by the Penguins.

 

[Pens x]

Chiarelli's name is on the Cup too...does that make him a good GM?

Rutherford did a lot of good stuff the first couple of years here. The last two years, not so much.

I don’t really care what JR did 2 years ago. He’s been absolutely awful over last 2 off seasons. He had a nice streak of making some very good trades, but he’s been making highly questionable decisions ever since. The fact that we won the cup 2 years ago should not give him immunity fro. criticism. You all gave Shero and Bylsma free passss for far too long.

This team has been crap for almost 2 years. The GM and coach have done a very poor job and our team has been suffering because of it. It’s too late in the season to make a change, but if we don’t make the playoffs or get eliminated in the first round, one of these buffoons will need to go bye bye.

 

[Turin]

I hope I never have to hear the “Penguins turn shit into gold” nonsense ever again after Oleksiak and Johnson this year.

 

[brewski420]

I think the problem is that I view GMs much lower than you seem to

Unless you have a relatively new GM (as in new to the NHL), I'm not sure how highly GMs will value analytics. I don't think GMs like Murray, JR, Holland, Bowman and Lou value analytics highly. I do think some GMs value analytics highly, but I think that is far fewer than the GMs who trust their eyes more. I think a majority of GMs are still old school, and you'll only see that changing GMs like Dubas and Chayka replace GMs like Holland and Murray. I think there will be a team that would trade for Johnson for that reason, GMs have not developed like advanced stats have developed.

It's why there are a bunch of GMs who still value grit, toughness and stuff like that. It's why you keep seeing guys like Girardi, Coburn, Alzner and Gudbranson getting big contracts. It's why GMs try to trade for guys like Gudbranson (who is a downright horrendous player) with a big contract.

I suppose this is true and if so than JR probably has no intention of trading him anytime soon even if he could in a manner in which I voted. I would not advocate for that either.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I suppose this is true and if so than JR probably has no intention of trading him anytime soon even if he could in a manner in which I voted. I would not advocate for that either.

I'm more concerned with this than Johnson not being movable. I am terrified that this team doesn't view Johnson as a problem or they think he only needs more time to adjust to the team, so they'll keep him.

 

[Shrimper]

The best hope you have of trading him is finding someone who has a similar player on a similar cap hit that they'd be happy to trade. How many of them are out there?

 

[billybudd]

I want some answers from Sully and the Pens organization why hes still playing.

Sunk cost.

I do find it pretty irritating that when Schultz comes back, the Pens are likely to leave JJ on the ice and scratch Rikola.

 

[Pens x]

I hope I never have to hear the “Penguins turn **** into gold” nonsense ever again after Oleksiak and Johnson this year.

But but but we just did it with Schultz only 3 years ago! We can fix any dman!

Challenge accepted

 

[Turin]

Sunk cost.

I do find it pretty irritating that when Schultz comes back, the Pens are likely to leave JJ on the ice and scratch Rikola.

I find it even more irritating that JR avoids sunk cost with everybody except the guy he ran his mouth about upon signing.

 

[Common Sense]

We have a lockout and an expansion draft coming up right? No reason to pay another team to take him right now.

 

[Shrimper]

 

[WayneSid9987]

I spent this week watching the same three games leading up to JJ's benching as Gonchar/Sullivan did. Extensive video breakdown on The Athletic if anyone is interested.

tl;dnr - Johnson didn't get benched because of poor play, he got benched because he was the 7th best defenseman on the team.

Can't change the past but all that matters now is the bolded.
Especially with JS back and a Riiko or MP can get a jersey insead of him.
And yea, they've should absolutely been more pro-active about things and got Ruh in there to try and bandage the bleeding.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I hope I never have to hear the “Penguins turn **** into gold” nonsense ever again after Oleksiak and Johnson this year.

I mean, the Penguins DID turn Johnson from someone worth nothing to someone worth over $15 million.

 

[Shady Machine]

One of the most disturbing facts is that there's zero evidence that Sullivan sees Johnson as a problem. The average time on ice for Pens' D season-to-date:

Letang - 26:15
Dumoulin - 21:02
Johnson - 18:56
Maatta - 18:47
Riikola - 16:55
Petterson - 16:53
Oleksiak - 15:52

So yeah, JJ is getting top-4 minutes. There's no effort being made to shelter him at all.

In fairness, our d blows without Schultz