Ted Lindsay: Connor McDavid, Auston Matthews, and Sidney Crosby

[daver]

You don't need to go so far back. Gretzky won an Art at the same age as Sid.

He is more in line with Howe in terms of being at a Top 5 player level season after season. Crosby's Top 10 Art Ross finishes are similar to Howe's Top 5 finishes when you take into consideration league size.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Gretzky likely wasent Even a top 5 player in 94

 

[Beau Knows]

Don't they do this after they actually give out the awards?

Not this one.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Crosby legacy award.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Not this one.

I'm pretty sure they started doing it recently. Pretty sure I seen voting results recently

 

[Empoleon8771]

I still find it hilarious that Crosby haters are getting mad that Crosby finished 3rd in voting for the Lindsay.

He didn't get a reputation win like Lidstrom got with his Norris in 2011. He (likely) finished in clearly 3rd place, while being closer to 10th than he was to 1st. Yet people are still mad about it.

When Crosby wins the Selke this year, then you can whine about "legacy awards".

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby legacy award.

Top 10 in scoring. Winning the east division while the penguins suffered key injuries. While also bringing selke caliber play into the mix. Not really. Sure mcdavid and Leon smoked the rest of the league in scoring. But third place was 69 points and Crosby had 62. So it's not crazy. Unfortunately for leon he is playing Robin in Edmonton and Crosby led his team to the div title in a much stronger one at that. I can see why

 

[Beukeboom]

Gretzky likely wasent Even a top 5 player in 94

Off topic, but yes he was. Scoring title at Croby's current age, and playing in the fifth worst team in the NHL. The second best player on his team Robitaille, was a whopping 44 points behind Wayne with more games played, and number three was Kurri, trailing by a surreal 53 points.

And using your own metric, how on earth would Crosby be top three this year?

 

[danincanada]

I still find it hilarious that Crosby haters are getting mad that Crosby finished 3rd in voting for the Lindsay.

He didn't get a reputation win like Lidstrom got with his Norris in 2011. He (likely) finished in clearly 3rd place, while being closer to 10th than he was to 1st. Yet people are still mad about it.

When Crosby wins the Selke this year, then you can whine about "legacy awards".

It sure does feel like a reputation nomination though. 10th in scoring, +8, doesn't kill penalties? I see a number of forwards who had better seasons before even looking at goalies or defenseman. It's easy for the haters to hate on Crosby because he seems to be the default for stuff like this even when he doesn't deserve it. The league has always tried to shove him down everyone's throat and pretend he's clearly the best player in the world but he's never separated himself like that in reality. It is annoying and then this board has Daver. As pointed out by someone before, he's going to run with this as proof Crosby is top 3 in the world right now even though no other player would be considered that after the season and playoffs Crosby just had.

It's not like his playoff proved it either. Look at what MacKinnon and Marchand did in the season and realize it carried over to the playoffs. How was Draisaitl's season not better than Crosby's? 22 more points, +29. It's only because McDavid took all the spotlight in Edmonton this year, not because he didn't have a better season than Sid.

I think Lidstrom actually had a better case for the Norris in '11 than Crosby has for being the 3rd best player in the league this past season. Who was better than Lidstrom in '11? Weber? I'd like to see an argument confirming he wasn't the best defenseman that season because it seems to be hot takes more than anything. It simply wasn't a strong year for defenders and he was probably the best choice despite being old and taking a step back from his usual self. He did get a lot of fanfare from having a good season at that age and scoring his first hat-trick. He still had a better argument for the Norris than Crosby did for this in my opinion.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It sure does feel like a reputation nomination though. 10th in scoring, +8, doesn't kill penalties? I see a number of forwards who had better seasons before even looking at goalies or defenseman. It's easy for the haters to hate on Crosby because he seems to be the default for stuff like this even when he doesn't deserve it. The league has always tried to shove him down everyone's throat and pretend he's clearly the best player in the world but he's never separated himself like that in reality. It is annoying and then this board has Daver. As pointed out by someone before, he's going to run with this as proof Crosby is top 3 in the world right now even though no other player would be considered that after the season and playoffs Crosby just had.

Okay, name them. There was Draisaitl, who was overshadowed in Edmonton by McDavid, and then a large group of players like Crosby, Marchand, Kane, Barkov and such that weren't clearly better than anyone else in the group. And again, Crosby's not even going to be close to 1st in this.

And boo hoo on Crosby fans using this to prop up Crosby. NHL players who voted on the award don't give a damn what some fans on some niche sports website have to say about who's better than who. It's pure arrogance to think your opinion is more valid than the actual hockey players who vote on these awards, and Crosby finishing 3rd in votes among his peers is just "the league shoving Crosby down everyone's throats".

It's absolutely comical that fans on this site think their opinions count for more than players who actually play with/against these other players when it comes to award voting.

It's not like his playoff proved it either. Look at what MacKinnon and Marchand did in the season and realize it carried over to the playoffs. How was Draisaitl's season not better than Crosby's? 22 more points, +29. It's only because McDavid took all the spotlight in Edmonton this year, not because he didn't have a better season than Sid.

Playoffs don't mean shit for regular season awards.

I think Lidstrom actually had a better case for the Norris in '11 than Crosby has for being the 3rd best player in the league this past season. Who was better than Lidstrom in '11? Weber? I'd like to see an argument confirming he wasn't the best defenseman that season because it seems to be hot takes more than anything. It simply wasn't a strong year for defenders and he was probably the best choice despite being old and taking a step back from his usual self. He did get a lot of fanfare from having a good season at that age and scoring his first hat-trick. He still had a better argument for the Norris than Crosby did for this in my opinion.

This is downright absurd to say. There is a MONSTROUS difference between winning an award and finishing 3rd place miles away from 1st place. Crosby finishing 3rd while (likely) being barely above 4th-8th place is miles different than Lidstrom winning the Norris based purely on reputation. Lidstrom was worse than all of Chara, Weber and Visnovsky (who IMO should have won the Norris that year), and I'd probably even throw in Letang in that group too.

When Crosby wins the Selke this year, then you can complain about reputation awards. Crosby winning the Selke this year would be akin to Lidstrom winning the Norris in 2011. Crosby finishing a distant 3rd in Lindsay voting isn't that.

 

[filinski77]

Okay, name them. There was Draisaitl, who was overshadowed in Edmonton by McDavid, and then a large group of players like Crosby, Marchand, Kane, Barkov and such that weren't clearly better than anyone else in the group. And again, Crosby's not even going to be close to 1st in this.

And boo hoo on Crosby fans using this to prop up Crosby. NHL players who voted on the award don't give a damn what some fans on some niche sports website have to say about who's better than who. It's pure arrogance to think your opinion is more valid than the actual hockey players who vote on these awards, and Crosby finishing 3rd in votes among his peers is just "the league shoving Crosby down everyone's throats".

It's absolutely comical that fans on this site think their opinions count for more than players who actually play with/against these other players when it comes to award voting.



Playoffs don't mean shit for regular season awards.



This is downright absurd to say. There is a MONSTROUS difference between winning an award and finishing 3rd place miles away from 1st place. Crosby finishing 3rd while (likely) being barely above 4th-8th place is miles different than Lidstrom winning the Norris based purely on reputation. Lidstrom was worse than all of Chara, Weber and Visnovsky (who IMO should have won the Norris that year), and I'd probably even throw in Letang in that group too.

When Crosby wins the Selke this year, then you can complain about reputation awards. Crosby winning the Selke this year would be akin to Lidstrom winning the Norris in 2011. Crosby finishing a distant 3rd in Lindsay voting isn't that.

Some fair points for sure, and nobody is saying Crosby isn't one of the best players in the league, just that he wasn't top-3 in the league this year.

Here are how these 4 guys produced compared to Crosby: All 4 were much better offensively than Crosby. I see absolutely no argument for Crosby>Marchand when Marchand is much better at both ends of the rink. The only difference here is players don't respect Marchand. Draisaitl's gap in offence makes up for whatever arguments people want to make against him.

	Points	Points/gp	Goals	Goals/gp		Points	Points/gp	Goals	Goals/gp
Draisaitl	84	1.50	31	0.55		35%	33%	29%	25%
Marchand	69	1.30	29	0.55		11%	15%	21%	25%
Rantanen	66	1.27	30	0.58		6%	12%	25%	32%
Mackinnon	65	1.35	20	0.42		5%	19%	-17%	-5%
Crosby	62	1.13	24	0.44

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Then at the end of the day you also have Stone and Barkov who both were just as good offensively, and both better defensively imo.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Some fair points for sure, and nobody is saying Crosby isn't one of the best players in the league, just that he wasn't top-3 in the league this year.

Here are how these 4 guys produced compared to Crosby: All 4 were much better offensively than Crosby. I see absolutely no argument for Crosby>Marchand when Marchand is much better at both ends of the rink. The only difference here is players don't respect Marchand. Draisaitl's gap in offence makes up for whatever arguments people want to make against him.

	Points	Points/gp	Goals	Goals/gp		Points	Points/gp	Goals	Goals/gp
Draisaitl	84	1.50	31	0.55		35%	33%	29%	25%
Marchand	69	1.30	29	0.55		11%	15%	21%	25%
Rantanen	66	1.27	30	0.58		6%	12%	25%	32%
Mackinnon	65	1.35	20	0.42		5%	19%	-17%	-5%
Crosby	62	1.13	24	0.44

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Then at the end of the day you also have Stone and Barkov who both were just as good offensively, and both better defensively imo.

I think the general issue I have with the complaints is that it's incredibly likely that all of Crosby plus the guys you mentioned will be tightly packed together in terms of votes, followed by a sizable difference to Matthews and then a massive difference to McDavid. It's basically splitting hairs because the guy who you thought was say 7th best was voted as being 3rd best, while being barely any more votes than the guys in 4th-7th place. It doesn't actually make a difference because Crosby isn't going to be anywhere even remotely close to winning the award.

Saying "I don't think Crosby should have been a finalist for the Lindsay" is fair, and something I'd agree with. In terms of awards, I think the argument for Crosby being a finalist for the Hart is substantially stronger than the argument for Crosby being a finalist for the Lindsay. I'd probably say Draisaitl was better, and that he's just overshadowed in Edmonton by McDavid. However, whining about "league shoving Crosby down our throats" or "legacy awards" for him getting a 3rd place finish, while very likely being marginally above 4th-7th, is just laughable.

If Crosby is winning an award, those complaints are merited. I already have my "Crosby's case for the Selke was substantially stronger in 2019-2020 than this year, so he had no business winning the Selke this year" post ready for when Crosby wins the Selke this year. But this? This isn't that.

 

[danincanada]

Okay, name them. There was Draisaitl, who was overshadowed in Edmonton by McDavid, and then a large group of players like Crosby, Marchand, Kane, Barkov and such that weren't clearly better than anyone else in the group. And again, Crosby's not even going to be close to 1st in this.

And boo hoo on Crosby fans using this to prop up Crosby. NHL players who voted on the award don't give a damn what some fans on some niche sports website have to say about who's better than who. It's pure arrogance to think your opinion is more valid than the actual hockey players who vote on these awards, and Crosby finishing 3rd in votes among his peers is just "the league shoving Crosby down everyone's throats".

It's absolutely comical that fans on this site think their opinions count for more than players who actually play with/against these other players when it comes to award voting.

He finished 10th in scoring, was only +8 on a very strong team, and doesn't even kill penalties. You tell me what made him better than guys who outproduced him and had superior +/-'s. MacKinnnon absolutely had a better season. Missed a bunch of games and still outscored Sid.

Playoffs don't mean shit for regular season awards.

I know, that wasn't my point. My point was that Crosby fan boys are going to claim he was the 3rd best player in the world this year but when you include playoffs how does someone like MacKinnon not pass Crosby easily? Someone like Daver is already taking this and running with it, comparing it with Gordie Howe.

This is downright absurd to say. There is a MONSTROUS difference between winning an award and finishing 3rd place miles away from 1st place. Crosby finishing 3rd while (likely) being barely above 4th-8th place is miles different than Lidstrom winning the Norris based purely on reputation. Lidstrom was worse than all of Chara, Weber and Visnovsky (who IMO should have won the Norris that year), and I'd probably even throw in Letang in that group too.

When Crosby wins the Selke this year, then you can complain about reputation awards. Crosby winning the Selke this year would be akin to Lidstrom winning the Norris in 2011. Crosby finishing a distant 3rd in Lindsay voting isn't that.

How exactly was Lidstrom "worse" than all those guys in '11?

 

[Empoleon8771]

He finished 10th in scoring, was only +8 on a very strong team, and doesn't even kill penalties. You tell me what made him better than guys who outproduced him and had superior +/-'s. MacKinnnon absolutely had a better season. Missed a bunch of games and still outscored Sid.

1. Crosby's peers know more about who's playing good hockey than a random fan stat watching. To suggest the players are wrong and you're right because you can look on NHL.com for stat lines is nothing short of deluded arrogance.
2. Crosby's peers realize that the Penguins had massive injury issues this season, which made Crosby's performance more impressive than it would seem on paper. I think this is more of an argument for the Hart than the Lindsay, but it's an absolutely true argument.
3. Crosby's peers may also think higher of Crosby's defensive skills than you do. Maybe they don't agree with you that guys like Marchand and Stone are better defensively.

Would I have put Draisaitl above Crosby? Yeah, I would have. Marchand? Maybe, but I totally get why his reputation influenced the way the players voted on it. Anyone else? It's splitting hairs. And even beyond that, literally who gives a crap? It's 3rd place and miles away from 1st place.

I know, that wasn't my point. My point was that Crosby fan boys are going to claim he was the 3rd best player in the world this year but when you include playoffs how does someone like MacKinnon not pass Crosby easily? Someone like Daver is already taking this and running with it, comparing it with Gordie Howe.

And guess what relevance that has to how the NHL actually votes on awards? Literally nothing. Boo hoo at "fanboys are going to use this in a way I don't want them to".

You being mad about how fans are going to use this is totally irrelevant to how they actually vote on it. Your entire argument seems to be "I'm mad that fans of a player I don't like can use this to prop him up".

How exactly was Lidstrom "worse" than all those guys in '11?

1. He was a negative relative analytical player, while all of those other guys (especially Visnovsky) were all positive relative analytical players.
2. He produced less than Visnovsky overall and produced less than all of them at ES. Lidstrom literally just farmed powerplay points that year.
3. He was a negative player overall while all of the other guys were positive players overall.

The basic stats and fancy stats all suggested Lidstrom winning the Norris in 2011 was an absolute crime.

 

[daver]

We all know it's the players, not the media, the fans, and certainly not the NHL brass, who vote on the Lindsay right?

 

[Flying Dego]

'I wish the players voting on this could properly assess talent like the fans.' You guys are a treat.

What's it matter, the final voting is:

McDavid
Matthews
Crosby

Get over it. Other players think Sid is still pretty good. SHOCKING.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

It's absolutely comical that fans on this site think their opinions count for more than players who actually play with/against these other players when it comes to award voting.

You really gonna make this argument this year?

 

[nowhereman]

I didn't even have to open this thread to know it would be full of people (mostly Caps fans) bitching about Crosby.

This season was basically McDavid and, after that, Matthews and another handful of players who had similar quality seasons. Matthews is there based on his incredible goals scoring and Crosby's tremendous all-around play lead his injury-ravaged team to a division title.

You could have picked any one of the players at the top but something tells me that, if Sid didn't have the name "Crosby" on the back of his jersey, people wouldn't be so triggered by this pick.

 

[zar]

Unexpected, yet not shocked to see Crosby on the list.
It goes to show you how valued he is by the best group to judge him... his peers.

 

[danincanada]

1. Crosby's peers know more about who's playing good hockey than a random fan stat watching. To suggest the players are wrong and you're right because you can look on NHL.com for stat lines is nothing short of deluded arrogance.
2. Crosby's peers realize that the Penguins had massive injury issues this season, which made Crosby's performance more impressive than it would seem on paper. I think this is more of an argument for the Hart than the Lindsay, but it's an absolutely true argument.
3. Crosby's peers may also think higher of Crosby's defensive skills than you do. Maybe they don't agree with you that guys like Marchand and Stone are better defensively.

Would I have put Draisaitl above Crosby? Yeah, I would have. Marchand? Maybe, but I totally get why his reputation influenced the way the players voted on it. Anyone else? It's splitting hairs. And even beyond that, literally who gives a crap? It's 3rd place and miles away from 1st place.

Massive Injury issues? You mean Malkin being out?

This past season was probably not great to get the players opinions anyways because they didn't play each team and were in bubbles. Who said I'm just going to NHL.com anyways? You don't think MacKinnon is a better hockey player right now just from watching?

Yup, Draisaitl, Marchand, and MacKinnon. So how does Crosby get the nod here again? You say who cares only because you're happy with it.

And guess what relevance that has to how the NHL actually votes on awards? Literally nothing. Boo hoo at "fanboys are going to use this in a way I don't want them to".

You being mad about how fans are going to use this is totally irrelevant to how they actually vote on it. Your entire argument seems to be "I'm mad that fans of a player I don't like can use this to prop him up".

I think they got it wrong and Crosby was already the default guy enough for stuff like this.

1. He was a negative relative analytical player, while all of those other guys (especially Visnovsky) were all positive relative analytical players.
2. He produced less than Visnovsky overall and produced less than all of them at ES. Lidstrom literally just farmed powerplay points that year.
3. He was a negative player overall while all of the other guys were positive players overall.

The basic stats and fancy stats all suggested Lidstrom winning the Norris in 2011 was an absolute crime.

From what I remember Lidstrom had the highest Qualcomp in the league that season so maybe you should go deeper than "basic stats". Vishnovsky wasn't even a regular penalty killer on his team whille Lidstrom was. What's worse, being a -2 and being tasked as a shutdown guy at 5 on 5 or being a big point producer like Sid, not kill any penalties, and only being a +8?

 

[Cursed Lemon]

If we're going by "the players' opinions" then apparently Datsyuk was better than peak Crosby.

Which I am going to now push because it's a result I like.

 

[daver]

If we're going by "the players' opinions" then apparently Datsyuk was better than peak Crosby.

Which I am going to now push because it's a result I like.

You mean regular season peak Datsyuk vs. one of Crosby's average prime regular seasons. Good thing the players voted before the 2009 playoffs.

 

[Albatros]

1. He was a negative relative analytical player, while all of those other guys (especially Visnovsky) were all positive relative analytical players.
2. He produced less than Visnovsky overall and produced less than all of them at ES. Lidstrom literally just farmed powerplay points that year.
3. He was a negative player overall while all of the other guys were positive players overall.

The basic stats and fancy stats all suggested Lidstrom winning the Norris in 2011 was an absolute crime.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

You mean regular season peak Datsyuk vs. one of Crosby's average prime regular seasons. Good thing the players voted before the 2009 playoffs.

Don't you wish

 

[danincanada]

You mean regular season peak Datsyuk vs. one of Crosby's average prime regular seasons. Good thing the players voted before the 2009 playoffs.

Not sure how great Crosby looked after the '09 finals either. Maybe they both wouldn't have been nominated. Sid finally comes up against a team from the West that can actually play great defense and he's reduced to 3 points in 6.5 games. Big difference from playing the Flyers, Caps and Canes, eh? Compare those defense corps with who Datsyuk faced. Some guys names Pronger and Niedermayer, then Keith/Seabrook before he got hurt. I know you'll probably never admit it but the West being stronger than the East was a thing back then. Maybe that's why Bettman felt so compelled to mess with the Finals schedule. Just sayin'.