Ted Lindsay: Connor McDavid, Auston Matthews, and Sidney Crosby

[DickSmehlik]

Danggggggggggggggggg Crosby's grace period is getting ridiculous.

 

[Spoilers]

With McDavid and Matthews the most outstanding player between them was the guy who made the North Division their competition.

Crosby should win this.

Except he shouldn’t. He gets reputation votes every year because he is Crosby.

McDavid just put up a historic year. No player in their right mind would think Crosby was better this year. Defensively? Sure. But the gap in offense is a canyon.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Except he shouldn’t. He gets reputation votes every year because he is Crosby.

McDavid just put up a historic year. No player in their right mind would think Crosby was better this year. Defensively? Sure. But the gap in offense is a canyon.

Look at the 12-13 hart and tell me he gets reputation votes or the 09-10

 

[KidLine93]

Interesting that they were all massive disappointments in the playoffs this year. Almost makes you wonder if they should factor that into decision for the finalists/winner. After all, what good is a great regular season if you are totally shut down in the playoffs?

thats what the conn smyth is for....

 

[wetcoast]

I didn't realize Crosby's production was that close to Kane's, in that case I can get him being ranked ahead.

Draisaitl didn't play the entire season with McDavid, he spend a lot of time in between Kahun/Yamamoto/Nuge, and he finished on pace for ~30 extra points over the whole season. Combined with his much-improved defensive play, I would have him pretty comfortably ranked ahead of Crosby.

I'm drunk so I will not count but McDavid shows up a ton on Draisaitls scoring logs this season.

Leon Draisaitl 2020-21 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[KidLine93]

Draisaitl spent all summer working on his +/- and he still gets snubbed

 

[KidLine93]

Given that it's highly likely than an Oiler wins this award for the fourth time in five years, if we don't make some real strides forward in being a successful playoff team (herein meaning winning 2 rounds next year)... some heads have gotta roll, man.

being normal bad wasn't enough. We got numb to it. The hockey gods thought giving us a generational talent and still sucking would be more fun. Then that got old so we now have great seasons and then get upset early each year. Im waiting for the inevitable reverse sweep in the cup finals to push us oiler fans over the edge.

 

[Dominance]

More crying. More.

 

[who_me?]

no player from the garbage Canadian division should win any regular season awards.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, I'm not seeing the Cros as a top-3 player anymore. That's a rather odd final three. (Probably, MacKinnon is in there if not for missing some games.)

Not sure I see Matthews as top-3, either, but he's very close at least.

Anyway, we all know McDavid's going to win it -- as he should -- so there's nothing else to really say about it. Except...

Let's all take a minute to respect the pride of Kirkland Lake, Ontario, and St. Mike's in Toronto -- the man Rocket Richard wanted to murder with his bare hands, if possible -- "Terrible" Ted!:

Lindsay was an EIGHT TIME 1st team All Star!

 

[daver]

Except he shouldn’t. He gets reputation votes every year because he is Crosby.

Let's see some proof of this. Two of the last three times he was nominated for the Hart he was not nominated for the Lindsay.

 

[Son Goku]

Crosby haters are having strokes

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

MacKinnon didn't have the best regular season which is probably why he isn't there. It's weird there is no clear cut best player this season due to lackluster playoffs.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

I remember a notorious poster here once said that a 10 point difference > than superior Selke winning defensive play.

Crosby pro-rated 82 games: 92 pts
Draisaitl pro-rated 82 games: 123 pts
Difference: 31 pts

Somehow though, now I'm sure he's swung his opinion 180 degrees and claims that superior defensive play (not close to Selke level) > a 31 pt gap. Beyond comical actually.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I remember a notorious poster here once said that a 10 point difference > than superior Selke winning defensive play.

Crosby pro-rated 82 games: 92 pts
Draisaitl pro-rated 82 games: 123 pts
Difference: 31 pts

Somehow though, now I'm sure he's swung his opinion 180 degrees and claims that superior defensive play (not close to Selke level) > a 31 pt gap. Beyond comical actually.

Imagine being mad that a player you didn't like came in 3rd place in Lindsay voting instead of being somewhere between 4th and 7th place.

Should Draisaitl have come above Crosby? Yeah, I'd say so, although it's tough to evaluate Draisaitl in a vacuum just because he plays with McDavid. Does it matter? Literally neither of those guys are going to be even in the same stratosphere in voting as McDavid.

I'll just quote the post from the last page that never got an answer:

Why are you so bothered that Crosby's going to finish a distant 3rd in Lindsay voting? McDavid's running away with this thing, so a player getting a handful more votes to finish 3rd than the guys who finish 4th, 5th and 6th seems like you're getting worked up over literally nothing.

 

[CycloneSweep]

People have to remember too with the season McDavid had 2/3 are going to be guys who got the most 2/3 votes not guys who came 2/3 in first place voting

 

[daver]

Should Draisaitl have come above Crosby? Yeah, I'd say so, although it's tough to evaluate Draisaitl in a vacuum just because he plays with McDavid. Does it matter? Literally neither of those guys are going to be even in the same stratosphere in voting as McDavid.

It's pretty well established that the #2 scorer in the McDrai tandem is not going to be looked at in a vacuum.

McDavid did not get a top 3 placing last year despite being #2 in scoring and the clear #2 PPG.

Hard not to think that Drai's point totals this year especially are inflated with the production of McDavid.

You are right though, lots of bitterness over something pretty insignificant in the larger picture of Crosby's of career accomplishments.

 

[filinski77]

1. Crosby's peers know more about who's playing good hockey than a random fan stat watching. To suggest the players are wrong and you're right because you can look on NHL.com for stat lines is nothing short of deluded arrogance.
2. Crosby's peers realize that the Penguins had massive injury issues this season, which made Crosby's performance more impressive than it would seem on paper. I think this is more of an argument for the Hart than the Lindsay, but it's an absolutely true argument.
3. Crosby's peers may also think higher of Crosby's defensive skills than you do. Maybe they don't agree with you that guys like Marchand and Stone are better defensively.

Would I have put Draisaitl above Crosby? Yeah, I would have. Marchand? Maybe, but I totally get why his reputation influenced the way the players voted on it. Anyone else? It's splitting hairs. And even beyond that, literally who gives a crap? It's 3rd place and miles away from 1st place.

Point #1 confuses me a bit. You are acknowledging that Crosby's peers know more about who's playing good hockey (admitting they are more knowledgeable, and wouldn't be biased) - but then you say that Marchand's reputation maybe influenced how the players voted (which makes them biased - and that they didn't actually vote on who was the best).

Point #2: Every team had injuries, Crosby wasn't really any better offensively compared to his own team than any of the guys who I believe were better players this year (other than Mackinnon since the Avs are stacked - but most pens fans wouldn't acknowledge that argument when Crosby got to play PP and some ES time with Malkin in their careers - but that's aside from my point)

	Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above			Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above
Crosby	62	24				Marchand	69	29
#1						#1
#2	57	23	9%	4%		#2	48	23	44%	26%
#3	45	22	38%	9%		#3	48	20	44%	45%
#4	42	14	48%	71%		#4	44	15	57%	93%
#5	32	11	94%	118%		#5	32	13	116%	123%
	Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above			Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above
Stone	61	21				Draisaitl	84	31
#1		24		-13%		#1	105	33	-20%	-6%
#2	51	21	20%	0%		#2	84	31	0%	0%
#3	44	18	39%	17%		#3	48	16	75%	94%
#4	42	18	45%	17%		#4	36	16	133%	94%
#5	39	14	56%	50%		#5	35	15	140%	107%
	Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above
Barkov	58	26
#1	61	26	-5%	0%
#2	58	20	0%	30%
#3	36	18	61%	44%
#4	36	18	61%	44%
#5	32	17	81%	53%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Drai and Marchand actually come out way ahead compared to Crosby, and Stone/Barkov are pretty close (even despite Barkov missing like 6 games too).

When you look at offence compared to total team, Crosby is nothing special in this comparison either.

% of team goals that player had point on:
Crosby	32%
Marchand	42%
Stone	32%
Draisaitl	46%
Barkov	31%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

At the end of the day, even if 3-7 was close, I think it's fair to say he's much closer to 7th than he is to 3. I would say for sure that Draisaitl and Marchand are actually on a separate tier than the rest of those guys (Mackinnon too, but his regular season wasn't as dominant)

 

[TeeTee]

Point #1 confuses me a bit. You are acknowledging that Crosby's peers know more about who's playing good hockey (admitting they are more knowledgeable, and wouldn't be biased) - but then you say that Marchand's reputation maybe influenced how the players voted (which makes them biased - and that they didn't actually vote on who was the best).

Point #2: Every team had injuries, Crosby wasn't really any better offensively compared to his own team than any of the guys who I believe were better players this year (other than Mackinnon since the Avs are stacked - but most pens fans wouldn't acknowledge that argument when Crosby got to play PP and some ES time with Malkin in their careers - but that's aside from my point)

	Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above			Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above
Crosby	62	24				Marchand	69	29
#1						#1
#2	57	23	9%	4%		#2	48	23	44%	26%
#3	45	22	38%	9%		#3	48	20	44%	45%
#4	42	14	48%	71%		#4	44	15	57%	93%
#5	32	11	94%	118%		#5	32	13	116%	123%
	Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above			Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above
Stone	61	21				Draisaitl	84	31
#1		24		-13%		#1	105	33	-20%	-6%
#2	51	21	20%	0%		#2	84	31	0%	0%
#3	44	18	39%	17%		#3	48	16	75%	94%
#4	42	18	45%	17%		#4	36	16	133%	94%
#5	39	14	56%	50%		#5	35	15	140%	107%
	Points	Goals	Points above	Goals above
Barkov	58	26
#1	61	26	-5%	0%
#2	58	20	0%	30%
#3	36	18	61%	44%
#4	36	18	61%	44%
#5	32	17	81%	53%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Drai and Marchand actually come out way ahead compared to Crosby, and Stone/Barkov are pretty close (even despite Barkov missing like 6 games too).

When you look at offence compared to total team, Crosby is nothing special in this comparison either.

% of team goals that player had point on:
Crosby	32%
Marchand	42%
Stone	32%
Draisaitl	46%
Barkov	31%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

At the end of the day, even if 3-7 was close, I think it's fair to say he's much closer to 7th than he is to 3. I would say for sure that Draisaitl and Marchand are actually on a separate tier than the rest of those guys (Mackinnon too, but his regular season wasn't as dominant)

I am guessing all of the players created Excel spreadsheets just like this when they were doing their voting. Maybe they had a bad sumif formula?

 

[Beau Knows]

Oof this had made a lot of people angry.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Oof this had made a lot of people angry.

Just wait until the hart finalists come. 33 year old crosby still top 3 player in the world.....

 

[filinski77]

I am guessing all of the players created Excel spreadsheets just like this when they were doing their voting. Maybe they had a bad sumif formula?

Never did I once say that's how I believe the award should have been voted on. I was simply proving someone else's argument to be incorrect.

Thanks for trying though.

 

[MessierII]

Gretzky likely wasent Even a top 5 player in 94

Gretzky led the nhl in points in 1994

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Gretzky led the nhl in points in 1994

And didn't get a single hart vote. Not comparable

 

[MessierII]

And didn't get a single hart vote. Not comparable

Non play off team