Player Discussion Taylor Hall - Part 2

[Pressure]

I was "attacking" you for misrepresenting another poster in a pretty hilarious and obvious way.

The poster said that he would take Hall OVER Kane because of the contracts. Then goes on to say that Hall would put up close to the same points as Kane. They're not even close to the same level. He stated he thinks they are "close". What exactly did I misconstrue???

 

[ChaoticOrange]

The poster said that he would take Hall OVER Kane because of the contracts. Then goes on to say that Hall would put up close to the same points as Kane. They're not even close to the same level. He stated he thinks they are "close". What exactly did I misconstrue???

Sample sizes matter. Kane's having a career season, but career to date he's exactly a point per game player. Still impressive but people are going a little crazy with the 'best player in the game' stuff.

If you disagree, who do you take on your team today, Leon Draisaitl or Jonathan Toews? Pretty much a dead heat points wise. Is Toews done? Can we simply dismiss him as a 55 point centre as people are dismissing Hall as a 65 point winger?

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Here is a look at the top 5 forward scorers, their most common line mate and their best defender.

Kane (90), Panarin (62), Keith (42)
Benn (80), Seguin (73), Klingberg (53)
Crosby (72), Hornqvist (44), Letang (53)
Gaudreau (70), Monahan (52), Giordano (47)
Kuznetzsov (70), Ovechkin (63), Carlson (31)

Now let's look at Hall at 19th..

Hall (58), Draisaitl (48), Sekera (26)

 

[Pressure]

Sample sizes matter. Kane's having a career season, but career to date he's exactly a point per game player. Still impressive but people are going a little crazy with the 'best player in the game' stuff.

If you disagree, who do you take on your team today, Leon Draisaitl or Jonathan Toews? Pretty much a dead heat points wise. Is Toews done? Can we simply dismiss him as a 55 point centre as people are dismissing Hall as a 65 point winger?

You're talking extremes here. JT is the captain, champion and winner on every team he's ever played for.

I'm not proclaiming Kane is the best player, nor should I think it's fair to compare the two, that's my whole point. I'm saying he's a top tier player. Hall has yet to prove anything. He's a decent point producing player on the worst franchise in the past decade.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

You mean like Crosby, who started the year with something like 8 points in his first 20 games?

Once more, with feeling: All scorers are streaky. Some moreso than others, but they all go through cold streaks.

Well that's kind of understandable, starting a season takes time to kick off the rust. Plus it was only a 5 game slump, after that his next 15 games he produced 12 points so not as bad as it seemed.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

The skill gap between Hall and Kane is not up for debate, not fair for Hall. And that's not because of Keith or Seabrook. Put Kane anywhere in the league and he will put up #'s

I'm not saying Hall and Kane are equal. Kane is better than Hall. Is he 32 points better? No. Put him on the Oilers instead of Hall and he would be at most 70-75.

My point wasn't even Hall and Kane in those posts in saying you have to look at the players they play with as well when comparing players points.

Kane > Hall
Would Kane have 90 points if we replaced Hall with him?
No.
Would he put up more points then Hall does now? Absolutely.

 

[Young Lions*]

This is the kind of stuff that derails debates into flamefests. I didn't say anywhere that Hall is a dud, don't put those words into my mouth. We're talking about comparing him to the elite forwards of the league. I'm saying that it's tough to make those comparisons because those other guys have accomplished more team and individually so you can't place him into that group until his team starts winning or at least finishes better than freaking 28th place in the league.

We're saying the same thing, basically, except you seem to think it's acceptable for a player to be judged by his team's results while I think it's categorically unfair.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

Here is a look at the top 5 forward scorers, their most common line mate and their best defender.

Kane (90), Panarin (62), Keith (42)
Benn (80), Seguin (73), Klingberg (53)
Crosby (72), Hornqvist (44), Letang (53)
Gaudreau (70), Monahan (52), Giordano (47)
Kuznetzsov (70), Ovechkin (63), Carlson (31)

Now let's look at Hall at 19th..

Hall (58), Draisaitl (48), Sekera (26)

Nice post. I think that brings home the value of a good puck moving defender, and if we do acquire it's going to be because Hall was the trade chip that acquires us that player.

Were going to improve but unfortunately Hall can't be the beneficiary of the defenceman.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Nice post. I think that brings home the value of a good puck moving defender, and if we do acquire it's going to be because Hall was the trade chip that acquires us that player.

Were going to improve but unfortunately Hall can't be the beneficiary of the defenceman.

It also brings home the point that one of the reasons Hall only has 58 points is due to the lack of a puck moving defensemen

 

[ChaoticOrange]

You're talking extremes here. JT is the captain, champion and winner on every team he's ever played for.

I'm not proclaiming Kane is the best player, nor should I think it's fair to compare the two, that's my whole point. I'm saying he's a top tier player. Hall has yet to prove anything. He's a decent point producing player on the worst franchise in the past decade.

Toews has played for good teams everywhere he's gone. Hall had the same luxury until he was unlucky enough to land in Edmonton.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

But that doesn't mean defenders make good players.

The best defenders are Weber, Karlson, Pietrangelo.

Top point getters on those clubs?

Weber (44) Forsberg (52)
Pietro (29) Tarasenko (62)
Karlsson (73) Stone (58)

Forsberg Tarasenko and Stone aren't being fed points even though their defenceman are world class and produce points.

 

[cbzblaze]

For the people who think we shouldn't trade hall, the question becomes, who would you trade to get the D help we need? And please don't say eberle. That would a dream come true for everyone arguing in this thread. But in reality, he's not getting us hamonic or vatanen type players.

 

[Jumptheshark]

here is a question

if we redo the draft

do we take either Seguin or Vladimir Tarasenko over Hall?

Seguin has topped 30 goals 3 times and the last three years has topped 70pts
Vladimir Tarasenko has topped 30 twice

Hall has never topped 30 and has topped 70 pts once

Hall han been reportedly 100 percent healthy this year

if he gets a point a game for the rest of the year he hits 70 pts--is Hall a 25g 70pts player?

At 24 we need to look at what we actually have and not want we think we have

 

[Beerfish]

You mean like Crosby, who started the year with something like 8 points in his first 20 games?

Once more, with feeling: All scorers are streaky. Some moreso than others, but they all go through cold streaks.

Hall was cold as ice the 1st part of the year and has been cold as ice for like the last 40 games. He's been at about a .5 point per game clip in that span.

Your best players on your team make you a good team or bad team and the whole lot of our core other than a 19 year old rookie have not been consistent and have done nothing to raise this team out of damn near dead last.

Hall should be lumped in with a very other player on this team not named mcdavid. Available in a deal or package to change the dynamic to a winning one. Since he is our best player other than mcdavid he holds the most value alone or in a package.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

For the people who think we shouldn't trade hall, the question becomes, who would you trade to get the D help we need? And please don't say eberle. That would a dream come true for everyone arguing in this thread. But in reality, he's not getting us harmonic or vatanen type players.

Vatanen is a pp qb who plays on a third pairing...

 

[Originally Posted By*]

Toews has played for good teams everywhere he's gone. Hall had the same luxury until he was unlucky enough to land in Edmonton.

Toews landed in Chicago when they were the laughing stock of the league, let's not pretend he was handed everything on a damn silver platter. He has respect of hockey personnel around the world because he does the little things it takes to win, and he's a leader.

Stop pulling the sympathy card out for Hall, nobody gives a crap lol literally.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

But that doesn't mean defenders make good players.

The best defenders are Weber, Karlson, Pietrangelo.

Top point getters on those clubs?

Weber (44) Forsberg (52)
Pietro (29) Tarasenko (62)
Karlsson (73) Stone (58)

Forsberg Tarasenko and Stone aren't being fed points even though their defenceman are world class and produce points.

Pietro has 3 more points than Sekera and Tarsenko has 3 more than Hall.

Forsberg and Stone are also not as good as Hall

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Hall was cold as ice the 1st part of the year and has been cold as ice for like the last 40 games. He's been at about a .5 point per game clip in that span.

Your best players on your team make you a good team or bad team and the whole lot of our core other than a 19 year old rookie have not been consistent and have done nothing to raise this team out of damn near dead last.

Hall should be lumped in with a very other player on this team not named mcdavid. Available in a deal or package to change the dynamic to a winning one. Since he is our best player other than mcdavid he holds the most value alone or in a package.

Generalizations drive me crazy and I'm seeing so many of them in this thread it's making my head spin.

Don't hide behind general statements. Name some names/packages.

 

[Young Lions*]

The poster said that he would take Hall OVER Kane because of the contracts. Then goes on to say that Hall would put up close to the same points as Kane. They're not even close to the same level. He stated he thinks they are "close". What exactly did I misconstrue???

He said, in black and white in the post you quoted "(Kane and Hall) are fairly close."

Your response was:

There's really no point if you think Kane = Hall. Really??

See where I'm going here?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Toews landed in Chicago when they were the laughing stock of the league, let's not pretend he was handed everything on a damn silver platter. He has respect of hockey personnel around the world because he does the little things it takes to win, and he's a leader.

Stop pulling the sympathy card out for Hall, nobody gives a crap lol literally.

Replace Keith and Seabrook with Sekera and whoever the **** is healthy this week on our team and I wonder how good Chicago would look. The reason Chicago isn't a laughing stock is because, unlike us, they have defence too.

I'll pull out whatever cards I like. I've got a whole deck, unlike some, it seems.

 

[Musashi]

And I'm the one searching for a unicorn?

Didn't mean to infer that. Just meant guys who have cemented themselves over the years as top pairing guys are not available. By saying a guy like Hall is only available for the very rare cases is limiting ourselves from finding a guy who can be a top pairing and difference maker here.

Losing Hall but adding a 'top 4 defenceman and a middle six forward' doesn't make us better, no. Adding those things is do-able by other means. Every other team in the league manages to add those things without destroying themselves by doing it.

Very fair sentiment but that's just your speculation. Also reading comprehension man, I said in scenarios where trading less valuable pieces have been explored and have failed.

Bogosion was your example so here's mine. Vatanen is a guy who our scouts have done the homework on and have targeted. They've identified he brings the shot and puck moving abilities we can't find anywhere else on the market. We've struck out on other deals and Anaheim has a better offer than a deal around Eberle.

Personally, I use Hall before LD and RNH in this scenario but no idea how can pretend to know the future by saying a return around something like Vatanen + other guys who have been targeted as players that can have success here like Rakell and Ritchie for example, has a ZERO chance at making us better.

 

[suddeninterest]

I mean lets say Kane is having a career year. Hes on pace for on average around 20 points more than hes put up so far in his career during the regular season based on ppg. If he can continue this ~100 point production for the next 3-4 years then yes he is definitely worth more than Hall. Kane's playoff contributions are also undeniable, ppg in playoffs. Obviously we have yet to see Halls performance in a playoff setting. However I would also say its probably fair to assume that a player like Hall could put up ppg on a consistent basis on a defending cup champion Blackhawks team for the regular season. He has proven he can do it on the Oilers once over a full season, and in the lockout shortened season. Now lets say this truly is a career year for Kane, and he drops down to his usual ~ppg play for the remainder of his contract. Assuming Hall's playoff production is reasonable on a team like the Hawks, say .75 ppg compared to ppg, I would strongly believe that the 3 years younger and 4.5 mil cheaper that Hall gives you over Kane would definitely make the value debatable between the two. 4.5 mil is the cost of a #3-4 d man or 2 decent third line forwards. If their production is similar on a team like the Hawks, lets even say Kane scores 10 points more over a season and .15 ppg more in playoffs, I would take Hall plus the #3-4 dman or 2 25-30 point forwards over Kane.

 

[CupofOil]

We're saying the same thing, basically, except you seem to think it's acceptable for a player to be judged by his team's results while I think it's categorically unfair.

It might be unfair but team results matter when judging the best player of that team especially when the team results are the poorest 6 year stretch in sports history. Not all his fault obviously but he's a part of it. Hall has been the leader of the worst team in the league for 6 years now. If you don't think that matters when judging the value of the player, you're sorely mistaken. 60-80 points on a last place team is different than 60-80 points on a winning team.

 

[Young Lions*]

For the people who think we shouldn't trade hall, the question becomes, who would you trade to get the D help we need? And please don't say eberle. That would a dream come true for everyone arguing in this thread. But in reality, he's not getting us hamonic or vatanen type players.

The only way Eberle doesn't get you those players is if those teams decide they don't need a $6M scoring winger. Why would Hall change that?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Didn't mean to infer that. Just meant guys who have cemented themselves over the years as top pairing guys are not available. By saying a guy like Hall is only available for the very rare cases is limiting ourselves from finding a guy who can be a top pairing and difference maker here.



Very fair sentiment but that's just your speculation. Also reading comprehension man, I said in scenarios where trading less valuable pieces have been explored and have failed.

Bogosion was your example so here's mine. Vatanen is a guy who our scouts have done the homework on and have targeted. They've identified he brings the shot and puck moving abilities we can't find anywhere else on the market. We've struck out on other deals and Anaheim has a better offer than a deal around Eberle.

Personally, I use Hall before LD and RNH in this scenario but no idea how can pretend to know the future by saying a return around something like Vatanen + other guys who have been targeted as players that can have success here like Rakell and Ritchie for example, has a ZERO chance at making us better.

Nick Ritchie, with the 2 points in 26 career games, is your example of a player that would make this team better?

Come on man. I'm also extremely hesitant to trust our pro scouts. We gutted some, but not enough, IMO. This is mostly the same group that felt that Nikita Nikitin and Mark Fayne would be top 4 defencemen here.

A guy like Vatanen doesn't command a return like Taylor Hall, not without +'s at least as valuable as he is.