Player Discussion Taylor Hall - Part 2

[Originally Posted By*]

Your tiers are either ridiculously close to one another, or you aren't rating players correctly. If people call Hall not elite, due to having a slumping second half, how the hell can you include Getzlaf in a tier two above where you MIGHT put Hall after the atrocious start to this season?

Kopitar and Tarasenko are at least in the tier with Benn and Seguin. And I would put Hall there as well. Do you see the overwhelming evidence of these players being "above" Hall in your estimations? They are on teams who are/have been on successful teams. How can you not see that if Hall were on a successful team that he would improve dramatically?

Every team is more successful, lol. How are you ever supposed to evaluate players if their supporting cast is actually a discredit?

 

[Pressure]

They are fairly close. Top 5 to Top is not a very big difference. Is Kane better? Yes. Is he worth the difference in contract $? Not in my opinion. On the Oilers, with the same teammates, Kane would not be putting up the kind of numbers he is this season. But I can definitely agree that Kane would have more points.

There's really no point if you think Kane = Hall. Really??

 

[cbzblaze]

It seems as though posters are getting blasted because they have an unfavorable opinion on Hall. To me, as I said before and very few others, I think Hall is the best trading chip we have to get what we need. And again, wingers are replaceable, top 2 way players like RNH are not. Will we get a return on Hall that we want? probably not. But CHIA is going to change the make up of the team, and his best move is Eberle and/or Hall. Eberle does not have the value of Hall in the open market that we know of.

Said it before, I think there's a real chance Hall is moved this off season. Will we like the return? likely not.

Either way, Hall has warts and puts up numbers on a last place team. This has been done before. Doesn't mean he's elite, doesn't mean he isn't. We won't know until we get better or he is moved.

This is exactly what I've been saying. Couldn't agree more.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Every team is more successful, lol. How are you ever supposed to evaluate players if their supporting cast is actually a discredit?

You can help compare.

If player A plays with scrubs and puts up 60 point

And player b plays with all stars and puts up 80...

The skill gap between the players isnt 20 points worth.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

But that's all hypothetical. What he has done so far is put up points in a bunch of meaningless games yet to elevate his team out of the bottom 3 of the league with lots of skilled forwards surrounding him including one of the premier talents to ever grace the league. Far from his fault but these are the facts.

What you're saying is IF Hall was on a winning team, he would be as good as those guys but that's not the case so all we can do is base it on the players we see today and Hall is less accomplished than those other players.

The bottom line is until the Oilers start winning, Hall won't get much respect. Unfair as it may be, that's the way it is right now.

Perfectly said.

Top pairing? Might as well say unicorn. I say top 4 on other teams in hope that they will be top pairing and difference makers here.

Bogosion as an example would not be ideal but I would also be keying on a middle six forward in the trade who can continue to help us be harder to play against, not just picks and prospects.

And that's only if other trade avenues have been explored and have not worked. Not saying you don't have the right to be against these "fleecing" deals but if it truly did improve the defense enough to also help facilitate the offense we still had and made us a competitive team next year, would you still be sulking in the corner because Hall wears a different jersey?

And also great point, if we trade Hall and improve in the standings, that is automatically a win - even though the value wasn't perfect . i think once again it's the attachment to the player himself, and nightmares of him wearing another jersey. If it improves our club both now and longterm, what the hell are we waiting for?

 

[Young Lions*]

There's really no point if you think Kane = Hall. Really??

I have no idea how you can quote the guy's post and still arrive at this interpretation. Baffling.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

You can help compare.

If player A plays with scrubs and puts up 60 point

And player b plays with all stars and puts up 80...

The skill gap between the players isnt 20 points worth.

The player playing with scrubs is the focal point of the team being fed the puck on a platter, and playing meaningless games means there's nothing to worry about. Powerplay, offensive zone starts all mean he plays with our best players in any offensive opportunity.

80 point player with all star team means player B is playing with scrubs wingers (panarin, anisimov, teurovainnen) and player B doesn't get as many touches of the puck because there's a whole "allstar" team to resort to.

 

[Musashi]

And also great point, if we trade Hall and improve in the standings, that is automatically a win - even though the value wasn't perfect . i think once again it's the attachment to the player himself, and nightmares of him wearing another jersey. If it improves our club both now and longterm, what the hell are we waiting for?

Easy man. I'm not trying to get lumped into your sentiment that Hall is overrated and needs to go and everyone who thinks differently needs to be attacked.

With the type of dmen that look to be available this summer, there is good reason to think it won't take moving Hall to get them.

That said, I would be hesitant to move RNH and LD before Hall but I'm not locked into that idea either.

 

[McDraekke]

But that's all hypothetical. What he has done so far is put up points in a bunch of meaningless games yet to elevate his team out of the bottom 3 of the league with lots of skilled forwards surrounding him including one of the premier talents to ever grace the league. Far from his fault but these are the facts.

What you're saying is IF Hall was on a winning team, he would be as good as those guys but that's not the case so all we can do is base it on the players we see today and Hall is less accomplished than those other players.

The bottom line is until the Oilers start winning, Hall won't get much respect. Unfair as it may be, that's the way it is right now.
Also, he has more flaws than those other top players do. Namely puck management and 2 way play.

All the bolded does is help my argument. I agree with you, btw. But if Hall can put the points up that he does even with all of the perceived or actual (I can admit that he has some, but so do the others... there are no perfect players) flaws, then you have to at least agree that it is possible for him to achieve those levels. The only difference is that I think the chances of him achieving the same heights as those that you mentioned is much higher than some others do if he were int he right situation. And that means having a team that includes a half-way decent d corps.

 

[Young Lions*]

But that's all hypothetical. What he has done so far is put up points in a bunch of meaningless games yet to elevate his team out of the bottom 3 of the league with lots of skilled forwards surrounding him including one of the premier talents to ever grace the league. Far from his fault but these are the facts.

So Hall is a dud because he couldn't even will the team into the playoffs with Connor McDavid for 36 games and a D corps consisting of one NHL D for the other 340 or so?

What you're saying is IF Hall was on a winning team, he would be as good as those guys but that's not the case so all we can do is base it on the players we see today and Hall is less accomplished than those other players.

The bottom line is until the Oilers start winning, Hall won't get much respect. Unfair as it may be, that's the way it is right now.
Also, he has more flaws than those other top players do. Namely puck management and 2 way play.

So: you can't even imply Kane is a mite overrated because he plays for a excellent team, but you can definitely say Taylor Hall is meh because he plays for a crappy one. That's some logical gymnastics there.

 

[Pressure]

This is exactly what I've been saying. Couldn't agree more.

Thanks.

And I added in another thread, but let's take a look at history.

TM- Over-utilizes and stocks up on centerman. He has used 4-5 centers on his top 3 lines since he was a coach. He is not afraid of using established stars from Center to the Wing.

CHIA- Wants to get bigger. Wants size in the top 9. His Boston teams have had grinders and skilled 2 way forwards. Players like Seguin were moved because they didn't fit the "Bruins" style.

Does Hall fits CHIA's style? - No.
Does Eberle fit? - No.
Does Yakupov? - No trade value

CHIA hinted at changes to the core. Who's the core before? McJesus-Hall- RNH- Eberle Jultz

Who is the core now? McJesus-Klef-Talbot-Nurse-(Hall/RNH/Eberle)


We need a top defenceman. How do fans think we're going to get it? seriously.

Eberle and/or Hall are gone. Get used to it.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

The player playing with scrubs is the focal point of the team being fed the puck on a platter, and playing meaningless games means there's nothing to worry about. Powerplay, offensive zone starts all mean he plays with our best players in any offensive opportunity.

80 point player with all star team means player B is playing with scrubs wingers (panarin, anisimov, teurovainnen) and player B doesn't get as many touches of the puck because there's a whole "allstar" team to resort to.

I'm sorry but you clearly have never played hockey if you don't understand how important defense men are to scoring.

Player A has 2 dmen that have a combined point total lower then player bs best.

Player bs top 2 d have more points then As entire d combined by 9 points.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Top pairing? Might as well say unicorn. I say top 4 on other teams in hope that they will be top pairing and difference makers here.

Bogosion as an example would not be ideal but I would also be keying on a middle six forward in the trade who can continue to help us be harder to play against, not just picks and prospects.

And that's only if other trade avenues have been explored and have not worked. Not saying you don't have the right to be against these "fleecing" deals but if it truly did improve the defense enough to also help facilitate the offense we still had and made us a competitive team next year, would you still be sulking in the corner because Hall wears a different jersey?

And I'm the one searching for a unicorn?

Losing Hall but adding a 'top 4 defenceman and a middle six forward' doesn't make us better, no. Adding those things is do-able by other means. Every other team in the league manages to add those things without destroying themselves by doing it.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Thanks.

And I added in another thread, but let's take a look at history.

TM- Over-utilizes and stocks up on centerman. He has used 4-5 centers on his top 3 lines since he was a coach. He is not afraid of using established stars from Center to the Wing.

CHIA- Wants to get bigger. Wants size in the top 9. His Boston teams have had grinders and skilled 2 way forwards. Players like Seguin were moved because they didn't fit the "Bruins" style.

Does Hall fits CHIA's style? - No.
Does Eberle fit? - No.
Does Yakupov? - No trade value

CHIA hinted at changes to the core. Who's the core before? McJesus-Hall- RNH- Eberle Jultz

Who is the core now? McJesus-Klef-Talbot-Nurse-(Hall/RNH/Eberle)


We need a top defenceman. How do fans think we're going to get it? seriously.

Eberle and/or Hall are gone. Get used to it.

Trade Eberle all you want. Add things to Eberle. If you - or others - truly think there's no top pairing defenceman available for trade, WHY ARE YOU TRADING HALL?

If the goal is simply to get a top 4 defenceman and maybe sign another in free agency, Eberle gets that trade done. No question in my mind.

 

[CupofOil]

All the bolded does is help my argument. I agree with you, btw. But if Hall can put the points up that he does even with all of the perceived or actual (I can admit that he has some, but so do the others... there are no perfect players) flaws, then you have to at least agree that it is possible for him to achieve those levels. The only difference is that I think the chances of him achieving the same heights as those that you mentioned is much higher than some others do if he were int he right situation. And that means having a team that includes a half-way decent d corps.

Having some competent Dmen will help so if and when that happens and Hall becomes a part of a winning team then I think it would be more fair to make comparisons to some of the elite players in the league. Lets hope this happens soon.

 

[McDraekke]

Every team is more successful, lol. How are you ever supposed to evaluate players if their supporting cast is actually a discredit?

By using logic. See McDeathbyCheerios post quoted below.

There's really no point if you think Kane = Hall. Really??

I do not, and have never said that. Have I said that I think the gap between them is close? Yes. And when you include contracts, then yes I would choose Hall. My opinion. I know it may not be popular, but I hope we never have to have an albatross contract for someone not named McDavid.

You can help compare.

If player A plays with scrubs and puts up 60 point

And player b plays with all stars and puts up 80...

The skill gap between the players isnt 20 points worth.

Thank you.

The player playing with scrubs is the focal point of the team being fed the puck on a platter, and playing meaningless games means there's nothing to worry about. Powerplay, offensive zone starts all mean he plays with our best players in any offensive opportunity.

80 point player with all star team means player B is playing with scrubs wingers (panarin, anisimov, teurovainnen) and player B doesn't get as many touches of the puck because there's a whole "allstar" team to resort to.

It's funny that you use the emotes that I feel like doing in real life when arguing with you.

80 point player has the defense on the team that can support the forwards. Have you not been apart of the same reality that we have been in where nearly 100% of opinion states that for the Oilers to start improving, their D needs to improve? Chicago's D is leagues ahead of the Oilers' right now. If Hall had the same level of team that Kane played on, he would have more points than he does on the Oilers.

I just took a look at TOI stats between Kane and Hall... the argument that having a better supporting cast means that they have less time with the puck is laughable.

Kane 5th in league at 20:34
Hall 32nd in league at 19:21

So Hall has 1 less minute per game on the ice than Kane does.

 

[McDraekke]

Having some competent Dmen will help so if and when that happens and Hall becomes a part of a winning team then I think it would be more fair to make comparisons to some of the elite players in the league. Lets hope this happens soon.

I will agree with you all day every day on this. And because I think Hall has this potential, I have a hard time wanting to trade him for the talent that would up his game.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

Easy man. I'm not trying to get lumped into your sentiment that Hall is overrated and needs to go and everyone who thinks differently needs to be attacked.

With the type of dmen that look to be available this summer, there is good reason to think it won't take moving Hall to get them.

That said, I would be hesitant to move RNH and LD before Hall but I'm not locked into that idea either.

Sorry dude, didn't mean to; I was adding onto my own opinion.

 

[Pressure]

Trade Eberle all you want. Add things to Eberle. If you - or others - truly think there's no top pairing defenceman available for trade, WHY ARE YOU TRADING HALL?

If the goal is simply to get a top 4 defenceman and maybe sign another in free agency, Eberle gets that trade done. No question in my mind.

I really don't care who or both needs to be moved for a top defenceman. We need at least 2 this offseason. If one is signed, sure. If not then we will trade one or both of them.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I really don't care who or both needs to be moved for a top defenceman. We need at least 2 this offseason. If one is signed, sure. If not then we will trade one or both of them.

So If we're New Jersey West + McDavid after it's all said and done, you're totally okay with that?

 

[CupofOil]

So Hall is a dud because he couldn't even will the team into the playoffs with Connor McDavid for 36 games and a D corps consisting of one NHL D for the other 340 or so?

This is the kind of stuff that derails debates into flamefests. I didn't say anywhere that Hall is a dud, don't put those words into my mouth. We're talking about comparing him to the elite forwards of the league. I'm saying that it's tough to make those comparisons because those other guys have accomplished more team and individually so you can't place him into that group until his team starts winning or at least finishes better than freaking 28th place in the league.

Again, Hall is a VERY GOOD player (not a DUD) but I have a hard time classifying him as elite until he starts producing at a high level in some important games and doesn't go cold for extended periods of time which he has done the last few seasons. He needs to start making better decisions with the puck as well, not consistent enough in that regard.

Lets hope that Chia gets some help for him and the rest of the team this offseason. I think Hall will rise to the challenge and be a part of a winner with better Dmen surrounding him but that remains to be seen until it actually happens. As of right now, he's a good point producer on one of the worst teams in the history of sports over a 6 year period.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

By using logic. See McDeathbyCheerios post quoted below.



I do not, and have never said that. Have I said that I think the gap between them is close? Yes. And when you include contracts, then yes I would choose Hall. My opinion. I know it may not be popular, but I hope we never have to have an albatross contract for someone not named McDavid.



Thank you.



It's funny that you use the emotes that I feel like doing in real life when arguing with you.

80 point player has the defense on the team that can support the forwards. Have you not been apart of the same reality that we have been in where nearly 100% of opinion states that for the Oilers to start improving, their D needs to improve? Chicago's D is leagues ahead of the Oilers' right now. If Hall had the same level of team that Kane played on, he would have more points than he does on the Oilers.

I just took a look at TOI stats between Kane and Hall... the argument that having a better supporting cast means that they have less time with the puck is laughable.

Kane 5th in league at 20:34
Hall 32nd in league at 19:21

So Hall has 1 less minute per game on the ice than Kane does.

I'm not denying defence helps breakouts and powerplays. But to suggest that makes up for 20 points? That's an absolute joke. Posters are ******** on Kane because he is playing with a good team, but they conveniently leave out the fact he elevates whoever plays on his line.

You don't just magically get 20 extra points playing on Chicago like that poster said. Nonsense.

 

[MessierII]

This is the kind of stuff that derails debates into flamefests. I didn't say anywhere that Hall is a dud, don't put those words into my mouth. We're talking about comparing him to the elite forwards of the league. I'm saying that it's tough to make those comparisons because those other guys have accomplished more team and individually so you can't place him into that group until his team starts winning or at least finishes better than freaking 28th place in the league.

Again, Hall is a VERY GOOD player (not a DUD) but I have a hard time classifying him as elite until he starts producing at a high level in some important games and doesn't go cold for extended periods of time which he has done the last few seasons. He needs to start making better decisions with the puck as well, not consistent enough in that regard.

Yep. It's like if he's not relied on to be the guy he thinks he can take nights off. The day Mcdavid came back his production fell off a cliff. Part of that is understandable because Mcdavid and his linemates will get prime pp time but hall needs to be better.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

You can help compare.

If player A plays with scrubs and puts up 60 point

And player b plays with all stars and puts up 80...

The skill gap between the players isnt 20 points worth.

The skill gap between Hall and Kane is not up for debate, not fair for Hall. And that's not because of Keith or Seabrook. Put Kane anywhere in the league and he will put up #'s

 

[ChaoticOrange]

This is the kind of stuff that derails debates into flamefests. I didn't say anywhere that Hall is a dud, don't put those words into my mouth. We're talking about comparing him to the elite forwards of the league. I'm saying that it's tough to make those comparisons because those other guys have accomplished more team and individually so you can't place him into that group until his team starts winning or at least finishes better than freaking 28th place in the league.

Again, Hall is a VERY GOOD player (not a DUD) but I have a hard time classifying him as elite until he starts producing at a high level in some important games and doesn't go cold for extended periods of time which he has done the last few seasons. He needs to start making better decisions with the puck as well, not consistent enough in that regard.

Lets hope that Chia gets some help for him and the rest of the team this offseason. I think Hall will rise to the challenge and be a part of a winner with better Dmen surrounding him but that remains to be seen until it actually happens. As of right now, he's a good point producer on one of the worst teams in the history of sports over a 6 year period.

You mean like Crosby, who started the year with something like 8 points in his first 20 games?

Once more, with feeling: All scorers are streaky. Some moreso than others, but they all go through cold streaks.