Player Discussion Taylor Hall - Part 2

[Originally Posted By*]

When you state "Hall hasn't won ****," you definitely do mean championships. Because Hall has certainly won us games by himself before. And you have literally said the words he hasn't made it to playoffs or won championships in previous iterations of this thread, so please don't act like I'm making anything up.

Could literally give two ***** about what one analyst says about Hall's body language. It's clear to everyone he hates losing. Not a surprise. I play in a rec dodgeball league and I hate losing too.

One player does not lead a team anywhere, be that out of the basement of the league or into the playoffs. Stop using that in your arguments. The only person I could see this argument being used for in current times is Carey Price - arguably the best goalie in the world. But you can't take one example of this and say it proves you right.

Rick Nash led his team to playoffs with Columbus. I can't name one player on that roster.
Nash is a winger, he's first overall, columbus was in the west - why can he do it?

If Nash had mcdavid, rnh, ebs, talbot, etc he'd be even more successful. He was lugging around no namers.

So don't say it's not possible, it is.

 

[cbzblaze]

I'd like to add something to my thoughts on Hall.

If a defenseman who has the same or higher value of Hall becomes available for Hall, I would probably pull the trigger. The difference in our opinions, is what constitutes a dman that has the value of Hall. It would have to be a #1 defenseman, top 10 in the league, for me to trade Hall. I wouldn't trade Hall for a defenseman of lesser value, or perceived equal value due to "defensemen being harder to find than wingers." I'm not disputing that fact, but I would still not trade down to get a player that fills a positional hole.

It's this type of thinking that leads to teams having ' positional holes '. Every team in the world knows we desperately need help on D. Unless one of these 29 GM's forget to take their meds, expect the oilers to lose the trade 'value wise' . There's no frickin way Taylor Hall gets us a top 10 Dman back without a very significant add.

I just prefer chia getting a D without having to move Nuge or our 1st this year.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

And CBJ made the playoffs! If Hall got us to a bubble finish in the standings I would rejoice, but he doesn't have it in him.

 

[McFlyingV]

Lol anyone who says they'd take Hall over Kane is honestly just trying to be funny. A difference in 4 million will net you the best player in the world, and a top performing, clutch player in the playoffs. Make a poll I bet it's lopsided lol Hall > Kane maybe Evander Kane, not Patrick though.

Kane is the best player in the world... Alright I see you're short sighted like most HF posters on the mainboard and can only look at the current season.

 

[Young Lions*]

The Kane contract does throw a wrench into his value but he has always been a level above Hall. Kane's skill is sublime. He has turned Panarin into a star seemingly overnight.

Prior to this season, Hall's been the better ES producer and he's done it on a garbage team. Kane's dangles are pretty and all, but he's had a lot of things going for him in his career that Hall hasn't.

 

[McDraekke]

Rick Nash led his team to playoffs with Columbus. I can't name one player on that roster.
Nash is a winger, he's first overall, columbus was in the west - why can he do it?

If Nash had mcdavid, rnh, ebs, talbot, etc he'd be even more successful. He was lugging around no namers.

So don't say it's not possible, it is.

In 8 seasons with Columbus, they made the playoffs all of once, and lost in the first round in four games. Rick Nash did not lead the team to the playoffs. You are wrong.

 

[Young Lions*]

Kane is the best player in the world... Alright I see you're short sighted like most HF posters on the mainboard and can only look at the current season.

Well the real thing that sets Kane apart from Hall is character. Kane never slumps his shoulders when he's in court.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Well the real thing that sets Kane apart from Hall is character. Kane never slumps his shoulders when he's in court.

Thanks, I needed that. Rest of the office now thinks I'm nuts.

 

[CupofOil]

Prior to this season, Hall's been the better ES producer and he's done it on a garbage team. Kane's dangles are pretty and all, but he's had a lot of things going for him in his career that Hall hasn't.

Kane also hasn't had to carry the mail offensively as Chicago has always had multiple lines that can score so if you put him in the Oilers situation where he has to be the go to guy, he probably puts up more points. Kane knows when to turn it on, it's not always "on" during the regular season. If he did, I bet that his point totals would be a lot higher. Lets not compare these two, it's not fair to Hall.

But again, you can't just look merely at point totals and determine the worth of a player. Kane is far FAR more skilled player and gets the most out of that skill. He's quite simply a better player. Factor in contracts, then it gets a lot more murky. If you had Kane at $6M or Hall at $6M, I bet that every GM takes Kane.

 

[cbzblaze]

Prior to this season, Hall's been the better ES producer and he's done it on a garbage team. Kane's dangles are pretty and all, but he's had a lot of things going for him in his career that Hall hasn't.

Being on a garbage team makes no difference. One could argue that a good player on a garbage team will put up more points than on a good team. Better offensive opportunities. Playing top line minutes. No pressure to win. There's good and bad in both situations.

Kane is a better hockey player than Hall. That's not even a close comparison.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It's this type of thinking that leads to teams having ' positional holes '. Every team in the world knows we desperately need help on D. Unless one of these 29 GM's forget to take their meds, expect the oilers to lose the trade 'value wise' . There's no frickin way Taylor Hall gets us a top 10 Dman back without a very significant add.

If just prefer chia getting a D without having to move Nuge or our 1st this year.

Same here. In a perfect world we deal Eberle + for Hamonic or Eberle for Vatanen and it solidifies our D and we can have Hall drive his own line and have 3 dynamic lines and return to 80's hockey and turn this league upside down. That said IMO we need one high end D and that may need to come from dealing Hall or RNH, in that case I'd deal Hall.

 

[Musashi]

there are many legitimate defencemen.

If you're trading Hall, and the guy coming back isn't at least of Pietrangelo caliber, you've failed and gotten fleeced.

If it takes a piece like Hall to get 1 out of the 2 top four dmen many of us think we need, I don't care if we've "failed" and gotten "fleeced" if it helps improve this team.

Many posters have presented a very valid argument with underlying stats included on why losing Hall, regardless if it helps the D, overall does not improve this team. But lets not pass that off as fact when it is merely just speculation. Same goes with the notion of doing whatever it takes to get defenseman we need.

It's not an easy task to fix the D but there seems to be priority with TMac and Chia to get it done. Whatever moves result this summer, I trust Chia played his hand the best he could and I won't be judgemental against it until the wins do not come with it.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Being on a garbage team makes no difference. One could argue that a good player on a garbage team will put up more points than on a good team. Better offensive opportunities. Playing top line minutes. No pressure to win. There's good and bad in both situations.

Kane is a better hockey player than Hall. That's not even a close comparison.

Exactly. Hall is a damn good player but comparing him to Kane is doing a disservice to Hall. Even if they are comparable at ES, Kane is a killer on the PP as well.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Rick Nash led his team to playoffs with Columbus. I can't name one player on that roster.
Nash is a winger, he's first overall, columbus was in the west - why can he do it?

If Nash had mcdavid, rnh, ebs, talbot, etc he'd be even more successful. He was lugging around no namers.

So don't say it's not possible, it is.

You can't name a single other player on that roster?

So you don't know who Umberger, Voracek, Tyutin (in his prime), brassard, Chimera, Peca, Russel, Torres, Methot, Vermette,Commodore, Hejda and Steve Mason are?

They made the playoffs because of a high scoring Nash which Hall has done and what's that? Good defense.

 

[Young Lions*]

Kane also hasn't had to carry the mail offensively as Chicago has always had multiple lines that can score so if you put him in the Oilers situation where he has to be the go to guy, he probably puts up more points.

With the supporting cast here? Yeah: nope. You'd be hearing the same stuff about how he's always trying to do it himself and his defensive lapses and so on.

Kane knows when to turn it on, it's not always "on" during the regular season. If he did, I bet that his point totals would be a lot higher. Lets not compare these two, it's not fair to Hall.

So when Hall has stretches where he's not productive, he's sulking and when Kane does, he's just keeping his powder dry? Narratives, man.

But again, you can't just look merely at point totals and determine the worth of a player. Kane is far FAR more skilled player and gets the most out of that skill. He's quite simply a better player. Factor in contracts, then it gets a lot more murky. If you had Kane at $6M or Hall at $6M, I bet that every GM takes Kane

My point is the comparison gets muddled because Kane has always played with a superior supporting cast. It's a simple fact that Hall has, until this season, been the more productive player at ES. Things get a little murkier beyond that, but it's not heresy to suggest they are closer in overall quality than people pretend. Kane isn't in the Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, Stamkos tier.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Rick Nash that year scored 79 points that season. That was a season where there was 4 players above 90 points and 3 above 100.

Rick Nash was tied for 18th in points that year. Hall is sitting at 20th.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

It was also the year that Mason was a rookie and had the 2nd best GAA average in the league and led the league with 10 shutouts, Nash didn't carry that team.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

If it takes a piece like Hall to get 1 out of the 2 top four dmen many of us think we need, I don't care if we've "failed" and gotten "fleeced" if it helps improve this team.

Many posters have presented a very valid argument with underlying stats included on why losing Hall, regardless if it helps the D, overall does not improve this team. But lets not pass that off as fact when it is merely just speculation. Same goes with the notion of doing whatever it takes to get defenseman we need.

It's not an easy task to fix the D but there seems to be priority with TMac and Chia to get it done. Whatever moves result this summer, I trust Chia played his hand the best he could and I won't be judgemental against it until the wins do not come with it.

You should care. If we trade Hall and get, say, Zach Bogosian and a couple picks and a prospect, that is a colossal net loss. Our defence would be better, sure, but there are smarter ways to go about it.

Say it with me. Top Pairing. NOT Top 4 for Hall.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

You can't name a single other player on that roster?

So you don't know who Umberger, Voracek, Tyutin (in his prime), brassard, Chimera, Peca, Russel, Torres, Methot, Vermette,Commodore, Hejda and Steve Mason are?

They made the playoffs because of a high scoring Nash which Hall has done and what's that? Good defense.

I am familiar with those players, what I'm saying is they're not world beaters.

Voracek is not the same Voracek you see today - his whopping 38 points should make that clear.

What exactly are you trying to prove? Is that top 6 headlined by Umberger, 38 point Voracek, and Chimera supposed to be impressive?

Nash had a 23 point lead on the next highest player on his team, you bet your bottom dollar he carried thay team to the playoffs. 40 goal season to boot.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

I am familiar with those players, what I'm saying is they're not world beaters.

Voracek is not the same Voracek you see today - his whopping 38 points should make that clear.

What exactly are you trying to prove? Is that top 6 headlined by Umberger, 38 point Voracek, and Chimera supposed to be impressive?

Nash had a 23 point lead on the next highest player on his team, you bet your bottom dollar he carried thay team to the playoffs. 40 goal season to boot.

Rookie Steve Mason carried the team to the playoffs.

 

[CupofOil]

My point is the comparison gets muddled because Kane has always played with a superior supporting cast. It's a simple fact that Hall has, until this season, been the more productive player at ES. Things get a little murkier beyond that, but it's not heresy to suggest they are closer in overall quality than people pretend. Kane isn't in the Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, Stamkos tier.

Speak about overrated players.

Crosby and Ovi are in their own tier. Then you have a tier of Malkin, Stamkos and Kane then you have a slight drop off to Benn, Seguin, Giroux, Getzlaf and Tavares then it gets cluttered after that with Hall not even being in that next tier which would be Kopitar, Perry, Tarasenko etc.

You can't just say that since Kane is in a better situation that his value as a player is devalued. If that's the case, you can say that about every player in the league compared to Hall since they are all in better situations.

If you feel that Hall and Kane are close as players, I can't do much to change your opinion but you can see just by watching them play the difference in skill level. It's night and day really.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

With the supporting cast here? Yeah: nope. You'd be hearing the same stuff about how he's always trying to do it himself and his defensive lapses and so on.



So when Hall has stretches where he's not productive, he's sulking and when Kane does, he's just keeping his powder dry? Narratives, man.



My point is the comparison gets muddled because Kane has always played with a superior supporting cast. It's a simple fact that Hall has, until this season, been the more productive player at ES. Things get a little murkier beyond that, but it's not heresy to suggest they are closer in overall quality than people pretend. Kane isn't in the Crosby, Malkin, Ovi, Stamkos tier.

Lol Panarin and Anisimov, he sure is playing with world beaters! Oh but that's right, he has keith on back end. I'm so silly, Keith is the one responsible for helping kane score his goals how silly of me

 

[Young Lions*]

I'm really enjoying seeing the poster who derides Hall for not being a regular 80 point player saying a guy who hit 80 points once in 8 seasons (and then only at a time when scoring league wide was juiced) is the greatest player in the world. The hits keep coming.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

Rookie Steve Mason carried the team to the playoffs.

Thank you, you just proved my point. One player can carry a team to the playoffs, and it doesn't need to be Carey Price, the greatest goalie in the world.

 

[Pressure]

It seems as though posters are getting blasted because they have an unfavorable opinion on Hall. To me, as I said before and very few others, I think Hall is the best trading chip we have to get what we need. And again, wingers are replaceable, top 2 way players like RNH are not. Will we get a return on Hall that we want? probably not. But CHIA is going to change the make up of the team, and his best move is Eberle and/or Hall. Eberle does not have the value of Hall in the open market that we know of.

Said it before, I think there's a real chance Hall is moved this off season. Will we like the return? likely not.

Either way, Hall has warts and puts up numbers on a last place team. This has been done before. Doesn't mean he's elite, doesn't mean he isn't. We won't know until we get better or he is moved.