Player Discussion Taylor Hall - Part 2

[Beerfish]

Hall is the best of those forwards, though. The argument is if you replace Hall with any other LW, is the team a playoff team? No. Are we better with Benn than Hall? Maybe a tiny bit?

Flip that around to other 'comparable' in their position players. If we replaced Yakupov with, oh, say, Lee Stempniak, how much better are we? Lots? Then, clearly, the middle six wingers are not good enough. If we swap Sekera out for Karlsson (1D for 1D), or Fayne for Hjalmarsson (3D for 3D), or Oesterle for Hamonic (2D for 2D right now, believe it or not), how much better are we? Lots? The defence is not good enough. If a healthy Kyle Turris swaps in for RNH, or a healthy RNH or, say, Frans Nielsen swaps in for Mark Letestu at 3C for most of the year, how much better are we? Lots? The centers still need work - and health.

This team has lots of real problems but Hall is not one of them, and the nanosecond you trade Hall you're scrambling around like a dog on a freshly waxed floor trying to replace him.

Sorry Hall is one of them, did you not watch the last half of the season for gods sakes? You guys keep making my points for me perfectly. Anyone else on the team plays poorly and they get raked over the coals. Hall plays poorly and the excuses just start flying, and not only that the same people that make these excuses for Hall refuse to use them the other players on the team.

As for the left wing bit, if we move Hall we wpuld be weaker at left wing, presumably we would be stronger in other positions. with Hall at his best so far we are DFL, with Hall at far from his best we are DFL.


If this team can make the radical changes it needs by dealing all the players this forum thinks that stink great, I don't see that happening.

 

[McDNicks17]

Sorry Hall is one of them, did you not watch the last half of the season for gods sakes? You guys keep making my points for me perfectly. Anyone else on the team plays poorly and they get raked over the coals. Hall plays poorly and the excuses just start flying, and not only that the same people that make these excuses for Hall refuse to use them the other players on the team.

As for the left wing bit, if we move Hall we wpuld be weaker at left wing, presumably we would be stronger in other positions. with Hall at his best so far we are DFL, with Hall at far from his best we are DFL.


If this team can make the radical changes it needs by dealing all the players this forum thinks that stink great, I don't see that happening.

Did you watch the first half of the season?

Why conveniently ignore the part of the season where Hall and Drai were the only guys on the team that could even put up a point?

I know it's human nature to focus on the negative, but come on. Do the Oilers even win a game without Hall after the McDavid injury?

 

[Young Lions*]

We don't know. But I promise you they would look way better with a better and smarter fwd group. Too much blame is conveniently laid on the dmens' feet. God forbid we blame the young FOA princes' for being difficult to work with. Though the d are not elite, great or likely even very good, I strongly believe they were made to look much worse by incompetent fwds. Incompetent, incomplete overall game.

Like I said, you put that cup winning defence of the 2006 canes on this oilers team and I will bet they would suck almost as hard as any of the d-lineup we've had in the past 5-6 years. Hockey melds defensive players and offensive players. It's not like football where the d and offence are separate. The fwds suck and the d suck together. Neither is helping each other. Both are holding each other back. I'm sick of the easy cop out of blaming the d for some of these spoiled brat fwds. And the way these brats are playing, they are acting like "it's not our fault, look at our f****** D". Bu******! Play better! How many times can the D roll THEIR eyes for Hall and Ebs and even Nuge etc making stupid defensive plays, not covering their man, coughing up the puck at the blueline, not supporting the play, not giving a good pass option, being weak along the boards, etc etc etc! It's a two-way street!

It's really not a two way street. D have a greater impact on the game than forwards. You reference 2006, well, the Oilers are an example of how one elite D man can elevate a team. Or look at Ottawa, which would likely be DFL without Karlsson. Top four D-men play more and in a greater variety of situations than top 6 forwards. To pretend there's an equal impact is just twisting reality to serve an agenda.

 

[Young Lions*]

Sorry Hall is one of them, did you not watch the last half of the season for gods sakes? You guys keep making my points for me perfectly. Anyone else on the team plays poorly and they get raked over the coals. Hall plays poorly and the excuses just start flying, and not only that the same people that make these excuses for Hall refuse to use them the other players on the team.

I cab't for the life of me figure out what point you're trying to make with all this. Why do you care so much that Hall gets called out when he plays poorly? What possible difference does it make to belabor the point that he hasn't been good for half of the season? How hard is it to comprehend why a player who actually does contribute and has been the Oilers' best player for the last five years would get more of a benefit of the doubt than others who haven't pulled their weight at all? I also don't understand how pointing out the obvious flaws in the way this team has been built is "making excuses" unless you genuinely believe that the poor performance of the team is completely Hall's fault.

 

[MessierII]

It's really not a two way street. D have a greater impact on the game than forwards. You reference 2006, well, the Oilers are an example of how one elite D man can elevate a team. Or look at Ottawa, which would likely be DFL without Karlsson. Top four D-men play more and in a greater variety of situations than top 6 forwards. To pretend there's an equal impact is just twisting reality to serve an agenda.

Calgary has 5 more points than us with multiple top 4 puck moving D. This fantasy that we're a couple of D away from the playoffs is so far fetched. There is so many deeper seeded issues than shoring up the blue line.

 

[MessierII]

I cab't for the life of me figure out what point you're trying to make with all this. Why do you care so much that Hall gets called out when he plays poorly? What possible difference does it make to belabor the point that he hasn't been good for half of the season? How hard is it to comprehend why a player who actually does contribute and has been the Oilers' best player for the last five years would get more of a benefit of the doubt than others who haven't pulled their weight at all? I also don't understand how pointing out the obvious flaws in the way this team has been built is "making excuses" unless you genuinely believe that the poor performance of the team is completely Hall's fault.

I'll say it. Hall is hands down the biggest reason we are looking at another dead last finish. We would be out of the bottom 5 if he didn't dissapear the last 30 games.

 

[Oilfan2]

Nevermind

 

[Oilfan2]

I'll say it. Hall is hands down the biggest reason we are looking at another dead last finish. We would be out of the bottom 5 if he didn't dissapear the last 30 games.

How is there any logic to that?

What you're saying is if we didn't have Hall all year we'd be lower than last?

 

[Young Lions*]

Calgary has 5 more points than us with multiple top 4 puck moving D.

Uh huh. And?

This fantasy that we're a couple of D away from the playoffs is so far fetched. There is so many deeper seeded issues than shoring up the blue line.

Oh yeah, running a blueline stocked with AHL call ups and waiver wire pick ups is NBD at all, all the cool teams do it. My Lord.

I'll say it. Hall is hands down the biggest reason we are looking at another dead last finish. We would be out of the bottom 5 if he didn't dissapear the last 30 games.

Thanks for saying so. Now we can ignore anything else you have to say.

 

[MessierII]

How is there any logic to that?

What you're saying is if we didn't have Hall all year we'd be lower than last?

No but Hall playing hudini for almost half the year is why we are going are to finish last again. We have personel to be out of the bottom 5 in spite of the blueline, injuries etc. The personnel simply have not performed. How is that even in question? Hall has been awful for close to half the year. That is a statistical fact not an opinion.

 

[McDNicks17]

I'll say it. Hall is hands down the biggest reason we are looking at another dead last finish. We would be out of the bottom 5 if he didn't dissapear the last 30 games.

There's just no logic to this.

Even with those poor 30 games, only three players in the league(Crosby, Kane, Kuznetsov) ended with more 5v5 points. What more could he do?

Maybe take a look at the players that were invisible for 80 games rather than just 30.

No but Hall playing hudini for almost half the year is why we are going are to finish last again. We have personel to be out of the bottom 5 in spite of the blueline, injuries etc. The personnel simply have not performed. How is that even in question? Hall has been awful for close to half the year. That is a statistical fact not an opinion.

And Hall nearly singlehandedly carrying the team is the only reason why they weren't eliminated from the playoffs by the middle of November again.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

This board sometimes reminds me of a bunch of Steve Tambellini's.

The problem with our team is the core is infected with suck. And we want to shuffle the bottom six and move around the defenceman a little bit.

Look at Calgary and their defence as a poster earlier mentioned: defence isn't going to magically solve Taylor Hall's lack of consistency over 82 games, or his inability to mesh well with mcdavid, or his lack of ability on the power play.

How can someone so elite be so **** on the power play?

It's because he skates in a straight line down the wing and doesn't think the game at a high level. He has noticeably looked slower the last year, once his wheels slow down were going to be left with a player who won't help us win.

Trying to build around a LW, lol give me a break. Trade him for some help and rid this team of suck that is infecting our organization.

Hall, Eberle, Yak: take a hike.

 

[McDNicks17]

1) Trade Hall
2) Make team worse
3) Lose games
4) ???
5) Winning culture created.

 

[NeverForget06]

defence isn't going to magically solve Taylor Hall's lack of consistency over 82 games,

See Johnny Gaudreau. Having a puck moving defenceman who won't feed passes into his skates would make a huge difference. Having a stronger d core that won't get pinned into our zone will allow Hall more time in the offensive zone, so more opportunities for scoring.

You are completely overlooking Hall's entire career for a span of thirty games where he has been inconsistent. There are very few players in this league that would be able to produce at the level Hall has on a team like the Oilers. Hall is not the problem here. The only way he will leave is for a home run deal that nets us a bonafide top pairing defencemen

 

[Originally Posted By*]

1) Trade Hall
2) Make team worse
3) Lose games
4) ???
5) Winning culture created.

Lol nowhere did I say give Hall away.

1) trade Hall
2) solve a gaping hole on defence
3) win games
4) winning culture is created
5) let mcdavid take reigns of the team

I don't think Hall and McDavid can exist on one team.

McDavid is taking Captaincy as he has been a complete proffessional through and through.

Hall will probably be a little sour and I can totally see why, he's never been a Captain on any team in his pro carreer.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

See Johnny Gaudreau. Having a puck moving defenceman who won't feed passes into his skates would make a huge difference. Having a stronger d core that won't get pinned into our zone will allow Hall more time in the offensive zone, so more opportunities for scoring.

You are completely overlooking Hall's entire career for a span of thirty games where he has been inconsistent. There are very few players in this league that would be able to produce at the level Hall has on a team like the Oilers. Hall is not the problem here. The only way he will leave is for a home run deal that nets us a bonafide top pairing defencemen

Defence will help forsure, just saying were not a playoff team even with a good dman.

The make up of our team still lacks a true identity.

And I'm sorry but I'm no longer sold on Taylor Hall. I was in his rookie season, but I don't think you can win with him. Find all the stats you want, the fact of the matter is he's led our team to DFL over the last 6 years.

 

[The Perfect Human*]

It's really not a two way street. D have a greater impact on the game than forwards. You reference 2006, well, the Oilers are an example of how one elite D man can elevate a team. Or look at Ottawa, which would likely be DFL without Karlsson. Top four D-men play more and in a greater variety of situations than top 6 forwards. To pretend there's an equal impact is just twisting reality to serve an agenda.

wow, I don't know what to say. it's so obvious it's you that has the agenda to serve and protect Hall etc at any cost. It most certainly IS a two-way street. Anyone who has played know this. How did the Canes win the cup with a bunch of 4-7 Dmen? They're fwds played well. It's a team game. Fwds here are NOT doing their part. End of story.




It's career suicide for any dman who has to come here. I don't care, put Karlsson here, he'd look way worse than he actually is because of our fwds. You can only do so much as a dman if your fwds don't know s*** about playing proper hockey. You start to play tentative and lose confidence in what your fwds will do because one game they might be in the right spots doing the right thing, the next they're all over the map. This is what I'm seeing from our D the last several years. Again they're not great but they definitely play very tentative and unsure and look bad and I attribute a lot of this to the fwds being so piss poor stupid bad irresponsible and unpredictable.



Any Dmen we bring in with this fwd group will look a notch or two or more worse than they actually are. Nothing will change unless a fair chunk of the fwds (esp old core) changes out. If we keep the fwds mostly same we'll be wondering why the eff (if we somehow acquire them) Pietranglo sucks, why shattinkirk sucks, why subban looks brutal lindholm, vaatenan etc etc.

 

[The Perfect Human*]

1) Trade Hall
2) Make team worse
3) Lose games
4) ???
5) Winning culture created.

You can't assume this. Even if Hall was "great" which he isn't... he's good, you can't equate losing him to being worse. It's way too simplified thinking. Chemistry and many many other intangibles play huge roles in success of hockey teams. I really think this team would take a step fwd without the likes of Hall etc.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

You can't assume this. Even if Hall was "great" which he isn't... he's good, you can't equate losing him to being worse. It's way too simplified thinking. Chemistry and many many other intangibles play huge roles in success of hockey teams. I really think this team would take a step fwd without the likes of Hall etc.

who replaces Hall's minutes and production?

 

[Young Lions*]

who replaces Hall's minutes and production?

Chemistry and intangibles, yo!

 

[Birdperson]

Taylor Hall single handedly hasn't carried this team out of the gutter with an AHL defense playing with him so he is a jerk and needs to be moved.

 

[Arpeggio]

Ridiculous arguments being thrown around in here. Not only is Hall not a great player, but he's actively making the team worse? By what, being the highest scorer on the team, being one of the best possession players on the team? He's a great hockey player. great hockey players don't make your team worse.

If the argument is that you deal him for a number one defenceman if you can, I can probably get on board with that. But some of you are saying the team will be better by virtue of him being off the team. That's ridiculous.

Saying he's "lead the Oilers to last place" is ridiculous. Bad players lead teams to last place. Have too many bad players and you end up in last place.

 

[scb23]

The only 'trade Hall' logic I can get behind is that he is a great player and would net us the greatest D return. Labeling him as part of the problem here is absolute insanity.

 

[Young Lions*]

wow, I don't know what to say. it's so obvious it's you that has the agenda to serve and protect Hall etc at any cost. It most certainly IS a two-way street. Anyone who has played know this. How did the Canes win the cup with a bunch of 4-7 Dmen? They're fwds played well. It's a team game. Fwds here are NOT doing their part. End of story.

Cam Ward played out of his mind and the Oilers lost their #1 goalie. That's it.

Really, the fact you have to back 10 years to find a team that did anything with a mediocre D group should tell you something. Not to mention the fact that group is still miles better than anything the Oilers have iced in the last 6 years.

It's career suicide for any dman who has to come here.

Yes, because they keep bringing guys in and playing them above their level of ability.

I don't care, put Karlsson here, he'd look way worse than he actually is because of our fwds.

Yeah because he's playing with a real amazing group in Ottawa.

You can only do so much as a dman if your fwds don't know s*** about playing proper hockey.

And the reverse is doubly so.

Again they're not great but they definitely play very tentative and unsure and look bad and I attribute a lot of this to the fwds being so piss poor stupid bad irresponsible and unpredictable.

I attribute it to the D not being very good in the first place.

Any Dmen we bring in with this fwd group will look a notch or two or more worse than they actually are. Nothing will change unless a fair chunk of the fwds (esp old core) changes out. If we keep the fwds mostly same we'll be wondering why the eff (if we somehow acquire them) Pietranglo sucks, why shattinkirk sucks, why subban looks brutal lindholm, vaatenan etc etc.

Well we can't know for sure until we actually get some decent d-men and not rely on cast-offs and call-ups.

 

[MessierII]

who replaces Hall's minutes and production?

The 40+ point 25+ min a night D man we get in the trade.