Player Discussion Taylor Hall - Part 2

[Weitz]

He could have been played meaningful games this year if he wanted to go to war. Instead he went home.

 

[Young Lions*]

There is a reason he isn't highly regarded around the league and its because he really isn't that crazy good. I mean the way some of the posters on this board hype him up is nearing Toronto Maple Leaf fan-boyism levels. He's a top 3 Lw in the world yet didn't get an invite to team Canada for olympics and for world cup (initial roster)?

No one cares.

He's an elite winger yet he can't produce for more than 40 games?

He's produced for 338.

The fact of the matter is once mcdavid came back Hall sat back and picked his nose for the last 3 months while our team fell deeper and deeper in the standings.

Hall started slumping before McDavid came back, so there's no correlation there.

That is not a player i want to go to war with. Mcdavid never took his foot off the pedal, yet Hall feels our season ended officially in Jan?

That's a loser mentality that will not be cured by adding a defenceman.

How do you know how Hall feels?

This is the kind of post I was talking about above: there are rational critiques of Hall to be made. This ain't one of them.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

He could have been played meaningful games this year if he wanted to go to war. Instead he went home.

No, he didn't.

Here's a thought experiment for you.

How would ANY OTHER LW IN THE GAME, with this group, with a defence group consisting of Sekera, Fayne, Gryba and four rookies for most of the year, fare? Does Jamie Benn get this team into the playoffs? Does Alexander Ovechkin drag that defence corps kicking and screaming to the post season?

If the answer is no - and the answer is DEFINITELY no - then WHY are you trading Hall for anything less than an elite defenceman?

I feel like #OFDTO needs to make a comeback. The 'Get rid of Hall, trade him for whatever, he's part of the problem' crew absolutely deserves it.

 

[Up the Irons]

I don't know if haters is the word, but there's a lot of yammering around Hall that is just not rational. It's one thing to talk about defensive issues or what have you, but if you're one of those people who references body language or leadership or other crap like that, well, you just aren't being serious.

Agreed. U aren't moving Hall because he's bad, you're moving him because you hit a home run. Petra, Subban, Barrie, Burns. That's about it. So, likely, not at all, as you've stated many times.

You're probably looking at moving, in this order:

1. Ebs
2. 1st round pick
3. RNH
4. Hall.

I'm sure PC will look at all options, but this is how, in the back of his mind, he is looking at the situation ( I think). There's a good chance 2 of the 4 will go, tho. Maybe 3, but not all 4.

 

[Hopelesslucicfan]

No, he didn't.

Here's a thought experiment for you.

How would ANY OTHER LW IN THE GAME fared better this year, with this group, with a defence group consisting of Sekera, Fayne, Gryba and four rookies for most of the year, fared? Does Jamie Benn get this team into the playoffs? Does Alexander Ovechkin drag that defence corps kicking and screaming to the post season?

If the answer is no - and the answer is DEFINITELY no - then WHY are you trading Hall for anything less than an elite defenceman?

I feel like #OFDTO needs to make a comeback. The 'Get rid of Hall, trade him for whatever, he's part of the problem' crew absolutely deserves it.

Exactly... and most of halls points came when Mcdavid was down, and the team was fighting for a playoff spot. It's not like he decided to call it quits when the team was 3 points out... he and Drai dragged this team to a playoff position in december, which is hasn't seen in years. I'd be much more worried if he was going cold then, rather than cooling off now, when the season is in the ****ter again.

 

[Beerfish]

No, he didn't.

Here's a thought experiment for you.

How would ANY OTHER LW IN THE GAME, with this group, with a defence group consisting of Sekera, Fayne, Gryba and four rookies for most of the year, fare? Does Jamie Benn get this team into the playoffs? Does Alexander Ovechkin drag that defence corps kicking and screaming to the post season?

If the answer is no - and the answer is DEFINITELY no - then WHY are you trading Hall for anything less than an elite defenceman?

I feel like #OFDTO needs to make a comeback. The 'Get rid of Hall, trade him for whatever, he's part of the problem' crew absolutely deserves it.

Here is my continued big beef with comments like this. Why are arguments like this only applied to Taylor Hall? When people are berating Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, etc etc etc why is this type of thing never brought up?

Also of what I've seen there is about 1 maybe 2 people on this whole site that have the attitude of getting rid of him for anything. The majority of people seen as Hall critics simply state that he sucked badly the last half of the season, the team is the same as always (DFL) and since he is our most valuable trading chip his name should be thrust out there.

Like any other player on this team he deserves heaps of praise when he plays well (1st half of the season) but should not be free from criticism when he plays lousy (last half of the season). Above all use the same arguments you use to defend Hall on every other forward on the team.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

No, he didn't.

Here's a thought experiment for you.

How would ANY OTHER LW IN THE GAME, with this group, with a defence group consisting of Sekera, Fayne, Gryba and four rookies for most of the year, fare? Does Jamie Benn get this team into the playoffs? Does Alexander Ovechkin drag that defence corps kicking and screaming to the post season?

If the answer is no - and the answer is DEFINITELY no - then WHY are you trading Hall for anything less than an elite defenceman?

I feel like #OFDTO needs to make a comeback. The 'Get rid of Hall, trade him for whatever, he's part of the problem' crew absolutely deserves it.

I'm crying because this post is so beautiful.

We're putting orange juice into our engine and trying to replace the wheels because the car isn't working.

 

[McOilers97]

Here is my continued big beef with comments like this. Why are arguments like this only applied to Taylor Hall? When people are berating Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, etc etc etc why is this type of thing never brought up?

Also of what I've seen there is about 1 maybe 2 people on this whole site that have the attitude of getting rid of him for anything. The majority of people seen as Hall critics simply state that he sucked badly the last half of the season, the team is the same as always (DFL) and since he is our most valuable trading chip his name should be thrust out there.

Like any other player on this team he deserves heaps of praise when he plays well (1st half of the season) but should not be free from criticism when he plays lousy (last half of the season). Above all use the same arguments you use to defend Hall on every other forward on the team.

Those 3 become literally invisible when they are struggling. Hall still generally makes a big enough impact on the game with puck possession and scoring chances when he is struggling to produce.

 

[Young Lions*]

Here is my continued big beef with comments like this. Why are arguments like this only applied to Taylor Hall? When people are berating Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, etc etc etc why is this type of thing never brought up?

Speaking for myself, I think the same arguments apply to some extent but those players listed also haven't brought the high level production as Hall. the "core" everyone wants to nuke have been done no favours by this org. That's pretty much a truism at this point.

Also of what I've seen there is about 1 maybe 2 people on this whole site that have the attitude of getting rid of him for anything. The majority of people seen as Hall critics simply state that he sucked badly the last half of the season, the team is the same as always (DFL) and since he is our most valuable trading chip his name should be thrust out there.

That's not a logical progression as it implies some level of culpability on Hall's part for the team's performance as a whole.

Like any other player on this team he deserves heaps of praise when he plays well (1st half of the season) but should not be free from criticism when he plays lousy (last half of the season). Above all use the same arguments you use to defend Hall on every other forward on the team.

No one has said Hall should be free from criticism. But if you're using a 41 game sample as the basis for the idea of trading a guy who has been the team's best player, well, I just don't think that's a good argument.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Here is my continued big beef with comments like this. Why are arguments like this only applied to Taylor Hall? When people are berating Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, etc etc etc why is this type of thing never brought up?

Also of what I've seen there is about 1 maybe 2 people on this whole site that have the attitude of getting rid of him for anything. The majority of people seen as Hall critics simply state that he sucked badly the last half of the season, the team is the same as always (DFL) and since he is our most valuable trading chip his name should be thrust out there.

Like any other player on this team he deserves heaps of praise when he plays well (1st half of the season) but should not be free from criticism when he plays lousy (last half of the season). Above all use the same arguments you use to defend Hall on every other forward on the team.

Hall is the best of those forwards, though. The argument is if you replace Hall with any other LW, is the team a playoff team? No. Are we better with Benn than Hall? Maybe a tiny bit?

Flip that around to other 'comparable' in their position players. If we replaced Yakupov with, oh, say, Lee Stempniak, how much better are we? Lots? Then, clearly, the middle six wingers are not good enough. If we swap Sekera out for Karlsson (1D for 1D), or Fayne for Hjalmarsson (3D for 3D), or Oesterle for Hamonic (2D for 2D right now, believe it or not), how much better are we? Lots? The defence is not good enough. If a healthy Kyle Turris swaps in for RNH, or a healthy RNH or, say, Frans Nielsen swaps in for Mark Letestu at 3C for most of the year, how much better are we? Lots? The centers still need work - and health.

This team has lots of real problems but Hall is not one of them, and the nanosecond you trade Hall you're scrambling around like a dog on a freshly waxed floor trying to replace him.

 

[McDynasty]

I would never trade Hall, We have so many other assets we can move that won't leave a huge gaping hole. Hall is a franchise player, you keep players like that for as long as you can.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

I would never trade Hall, We have so many other assets we can move that won't leave a huge gaping hole. Hall is a franchise player, you keep players like that for as long as you can.

I would trade Hall if the right deal presented itself. Good defenceman are alot harder to find than scoring wingers, that's a fact. I think GM's laugh if we offer RNH/Eberle for a defenceman that will make a difference on our team.

Expect Sekera - ish defenceman if we offer Eberle and a Jones like defenceman if we offer RNH.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

No one cares.



He's produced for 338.



Hall started slumping before McDavid came back, so there's no correlation there.



How do you know how Hall feels?

This is the kind of post I was talking about above: there are rational critiques of Hall to be made. This ain't one of them.

What do you mean nobody cares? If he was as good as you claim he'd be a shoe-in. Maybe it's his lack of hockey sense that keeps him off the team?

I don't care what he did in the past when coaches spoon fed him prime match ups and didn't instill 200 ft game for Taylor. He was allowed to go all out on offence. Since TM forced him to play responsible, his offence dried up. Coincidence?

Hall started slumping really bad, and when McDavid came Hall continued to play bad. That's really alarming, he hasn't had a multi point game (save for the empty netter vs San Jose) in a while.

How do I know how Hall feels? I don't lol doesn't take a genius or fancy stats to observe tendencies though.

Remember Cheechoo scored 50 at one point, not all progression is linear.

If you think Hall's past production means he will be a ppg player for the rest of his career, you are confused.

 

[McDNicks17]

This is a team that relies solely on 5v5 because of their constantly putrid PP.

Imagine how that team looks without their second best 5v5 player(obviously behind McDavid) who isn't just an elite 5v5 point producing LW, but elite among all forwards.

I think we, as Oilers fans, should be well aware that things can get worse even when you think you're at rock bottom.

 

[Young Lions*]

I don't care what he did in the past when coaches spoon fed him prime match ups and didn't instill 200 ft game for Taylor. He was allowed to go all out on offence. Since TM forced him to play responsible, his offence dried up. Coincidence?

Yeah you're gonna have to prove this. Because if TMac is a guy who would choke the life out of a PPG outscorer, he should be canned.

Remember Cheechoo scored 50 at one point, not all progression is linear.

Hall has been a consistent producer his whole career not a guy who rode good percentages to one nice campaign. perhaps you're thinking of Eberle?

If you think Hall's past production means he will be a ppg player for the rest of his career, you are confused.

I guess it's possible that, after more than 300 games of consistent near-PPG production, Hall is washed up at 24, an age when players' scoring typically starts to peak. But it seems implausible. Care to put money on it?

 

[NeverForget06]

This is a team that relies solely on 5v5 because of their constantly putrid PP.

Imagine how that team looks without their second best 5v5 player(obviously behind McDavid) who isn't just an elite 5v5 point producing LW, but elite among all forwards.

I think we, as Oilers fans, should be well aware that things can get worse even when you think you're at rock bottom.

I agree. I also still see a passion in his game that I have never seen even a glimpse of from ebs and RNH.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Only three players have more 5v5 points over the past four seasons, but let's trade him because he had a bad 30 game stretch.

Makes sense.

And 5v5 is the most important game setting in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles and it's endless OT. Fewer PPs and no 3v3 where guys like Gaudreau accumulate a ton of their points.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

This is a team that relies solely on 5v5 because of their constantly putrid PP.

Imagine how that team looks without their second best 5v5 player(obviously behind McDavid) who isn't just an elite 5v5 point producing LW, but elite among all forwards.

I think we, as Oilers fans, should be well aware that things can get worse even when you think you're at rock bottom.

Do you think that he'd be down for a reduction in PP time? IMO that is an area of weakness for him this season and likely last season as well.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

And 5v5 is the most important game setting in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles and it's endless OT. Fewer PPs and no 3v3 where guys like Gaudreau accumulate a ton of their points.

You mean like much of this season when we areon the receiving end of BS officiating?

Hall definitely has his uses, I think that with less PP time he might be more effective.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

You mean like much of this season when we areon the receiving end of BS officiating?

Hall definitely has his uses, I think that with less PP time he might be more effective.

I agree, since he's not as effective on the PP it may help keep him fresh.

 

[McDNicks17]

Do you think that he'd be down for a reduction in PP time? IMO that is an area of weakness for him this season and likely last season as well.

They need to build the PP around McDavid, first and foremost.

Get him the tools for a successful PP and if there's still a spot for Hall, give him a shot. If not, they shouldn't stress about it.

 

[The Perfect Human*]

Would you still do that if some guy was paying you six million to score some goals? And millions of people were expecting you to score goals?
Now this I agree with. You said earlier Eberle doesn't present well for passes when breaking out of the zone. I strongly disagree. I see him always in position, stick on the ice, head turned, looking, skating, desperately hoping that one of these ****ing schlubs is going to get a pass through. Pouliot the same. I have observed visible frustration on the part of these guys as the dmen just flub the breakout and another shift is wasted chasing the puck back into their own zone.

I believe the bold is true beyond a doubt. But unlike you I don't blame them a bit. After one season here they would have sussed that Katz and Co were playing for the charity picks. They would have also soon realized that the team had no intention of competing and no leadership capable of accomplishing anything even if there had been the inclination. And most importantly they would have seen that the horses on the ice were incapable of playing the game "the right way" even if everyone followed the directives of the coach du jour. I guess I just don"t believe that, under those circumstances, Hall and Eberle were wrong to decide to keep playing the game that got them to the show. Its certainly not reason enough to call them gutless floaters imo.

Whitney (35)
Gilbert
Foster
Vandermeer
Peckham
Smid
Petry (35)
Chorney (12)
Petiot (2)
Strudwick
Pante (3)
Belle (5)

That was the defense during Hall and Eberle's rookie year. Brackets is GP for guys who didn't play the whole season. Its probably the best d-corps Hall ever had to work with. Please don't make me go back through all the other seasons and write down all the other sad names. And is the defense any better today? If you were Hall and Eberle what would you think of that? Would you think, 'if I just listen to coach and backcheck a little harder, maybe throw my body around a bit, we could turn this thing around. I think Struddy and Duby are going to lead us right into the playoffs if I just sacrifice some offense to play their positions for them'? Or would you look around and say to Eberle and Nuge, "right, its on us guys. Coach doesn't have a ****ing clue, we all know he's gone at the end of the year anyway. We have to just try and score more than the other guys every night, cause you can see what we're dealing with here'?

This has been a three person team for years now. Take Hall, Eberle and RNH off the team and these guys don't score any goals at all. Or win any games. Now I get that we're all under new management and we have the celebrated coach we've always wanted etc etc, and I have never been opposed to trading any of the players for the right deal that improves the team, but I just do not see what it profits us to trash the three guys who have been the only reason to even turn the TV on the last six seasons. We want assets for these players. Why are we going to keep making them out to be rubbish players when as Oiler fans we should know better than any how utterly dysfunctional this team is, how ludicrously constructed and mentally weak.

As an aside, I find it interesting that so many people want to on the one hand write off guys like Hall and Eberle (who have at least put up the points) because these six years etc etc shows that they are rotten players with whom 'you just can't win", but with the same breath they use the last four seasons and all the same team dysfunction to excuse other guys (who have produced sweet **** all).
When you've evaluated that the team isn't even legitimately trying to have success for the first several years of your career, what would you expect them to do? I don't disagree that on a properly constructed team the individuals have to defer to the system. But on a team playing no system I ever saw, and one that doesn't have the personnel to execute a winning system even if the coach gave them one ... well, its not the same thing.
You don't know that they pouted and it detracts from your point to throw that in. I think there is an element of 'look what we have to work with' and no offense, but I think if you play hockey as cocky as you post, you would do the same thing they did. When you are a FOA and your career is on the line, do you have time to deal with goofs like Tamby and Eakins? These guys get one shot at a career and the Oilers are sewering that.

Again, you won't be able to get me to agree that Hall and Eberle and RNH should have carried this team on their backs 'a little bit better'. There is no degree to which any three guys could possibly 'suck it up' enough to make a difference on this team.

I appreciate that you took the time to reply and I wish to reiterate that I am not against trading any player for the right pieces. I do not think Hall and Eberle and RNH are special or untouchable, and I'm not 'stuck on Rebuild v1'. I think you are over stating their failings because its easy to isolate them on a team this bad, and not giving them enough credit for the stuff they do well because they obviously aren't doing it well enough on a team this bad. In other words, they can't win for losing.

Have another look at the defence lineup from Hall's rookie year. Funny stuff, right?

I think as you think Hall is getting an overly bad rap, Eakins to some degree may be as well. I think this group is just extremely difficult to teach and are very slow learners. This is one reason I feel there just needs to be a massive exodus and change of culture.

Look at the 2005-05 Carolina defence. Pretty mediocre at best yet they were a very high scoring team/winning the cup. I bet the current Oilers team would make that defence look awful as well. It's a two way street. d can make fwds better, fwds can make d better. and our fwds do not help the d play to their potential.

 

[Young Lions*]

I think as you think Hall is getting an overly bad rap, Eakins to some degree may be as well. I think this group is just extremely difficult to teach and are very slow learners. This is one reason I feel there just needs to be a massive exodus and change of culture.

Look at the 2005-05 Carolina defence. Pretty mediocre at best yet they were a very high scoring team/winning the cup. I bet the current Oilers team would make that defence look awful as well. It's a two way street. d can make fwds better, fwds can make d better. and our fwds do not help the d play to their potential.

What potential?

 

[Beerfish]

Those 3 become literally invisible when they are struggling. Hall still generally makes a big enough impact on the game with puck possession and scoring chances when he is struggling to produce.

You just made my point for me 100% thanks.

 

[The Perfect Human*]

What potential?

We don't know. But I promise you they would look way better with a better and smarter fwd group. Too much blame is conveniently laid on the dmens' feet. God forbid we blame the young FOA princes' for being difficult to work with. Though the d are not elite, great or likely even very good, I strongly believe they were made to look much worse by incompetent fwds. Incompetent, incomplete overall game.



Like I said, you put that cup winning defence of the 2006 canes on this oilers team and I will bet they would suck almost as hard as any of the d-lineup we've had in the past 5-6 years. Hockey melds defensive players and offensive players. It's not like football where the d and offence are separate. The fwds suck and the d suck together. Neither is helping each other. Both are holding each other back. I'm sick of the easy cop out of blaming the d for some of these spoiled brat fwds. And the way these brats are playing, they are acting like "it's not our fault, look at our f****** D". Bu******! Play better! How many times can the D roll THEIR eyes for Hall and Ebs and even Nuge etc making stupid defensive plays, not covering their man, coughing up the puck at the blueline, not supporting the play, not giving a good pass option, being weak along the boards, etc etc etc! It's a two-way street!