Tavares/Marner/Hyman - Series Role

[Nithoniniel]

We're talking about two of our three best players here. We need them to do more than just try to stay alive.

 

[Beyonder91]

We're talking about two of our three best players here. We need them to do more than just try to stay alive.

What do you expect to be happening? The Bergeron line has only scored in 1 game 5on5 head to head vs them. How does that fit your narrative?

 

[Sweet Leaf]

I really liked JTs game yesterday. He was creating chances for himself and his teammates.

Marner is not creating chances per his usual self.

These lines are Godzilla vs King Kong. Its a tough go out there.

Watch how dominant their big line looks when they catch anybody but our top 2 lines out there and you get a renewed appreciation for how good they are.

 

[Nithoniniel]

What do you expect to be happening? The Bergeron line has only scored in 1 game 5on5 head to head vs them. How does that fit your narrative?

They have been on the ice for four goals against at 5-on-5, worst off any line, with absolutely dreadful underlying metrics. They don't really score at all. It's not just about the Bergeron line. That's not all of their minutes, and that's not all of what they are doing.

 

[Beyonder91]

People need to come back to reality and realize who they are up against. Bergeron is arguably the greatest defensive player of all time and one of the very best faceoff guys ever as well. He has won 4 selke, every gold medal imaginable and been to the Cup finals twice winning it once. Marchand is right there with him for all around ability. These guys have been playing together dominating lines for years whereas this is the first year of Tavares/Marner together.

Tavares/Marner have kept them off the scoresheet 5on5 head to head in 5/6 games and our fans are still whining.

You guys are honestly delusional with your expectations.

Now with that said our power play has been a massive disappointment. We need our guys to step up there if we are going to win game 7.

 

[Beyonder91]

They have been on the ice for four goals against at 5-on-5, worst off any line, with absolutely dreadful underlying metrics. They don't really score at all. It's not just about the Bergeron line. That's not all of their minutes, and that's not all of what they are doing.

Oh no!! 4 goals 5 on 5 over 6 games. Insane!!! 3 of them matched up against the best line in the league. The Tavares line has scored 2 against them. You honestly can't be this ignorant.
You are delusional in your expectations. They are doing their job. Bergeron line has only scored in one game head to head vs them 5 on 5. You still haven't addressed this point. Pathetic.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Oh no!! 4 goals 5 on 5 over 6 games. Insane!!! 3 of them matched up against the best line in the league. The Tavares line has scored 2 against them. You honestly can't be this ignorant.
You are delusional in your expectations. They are doing their job. Bergeron line has only scored in one game head to head vs them 5 on 5. You still haven't addressed this point. Pathetic.

Thse are just scorned fans holding on to old school narratives because Babcock is dumb or Matthews/Nylander are better or all of the above.

 

[Beyonder91]

Thse are just scorned fans holding on to old school narratives because Babcock is dumb or Matthews/Nylander are better or all of the above.

Yeah I'm done responding to these guys. They make their cookie cutter "They need to score" comments over and over that just shows they have no clue what is going on out there.
Power play they definitely do need to find a way to get it done though! Not even close to good enough there.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Oh no!! 4 goals 5 on 5 over 6 games. Insane!!! 3 of them matched up against the best line in the league. The Tavares line has scored 2 against them. You honestly can't be this ignorant.
You are delusional in your expectations. They are doing their job. Bergeron line has only scored in one game head to head vs them 5 on 5. You still haven't addressed this point. Pathetic.

I did address that point, by saying that they are responsible for all their minutes and not just those played against Bergeron.

Counter-point, how is it delusional to expect more than 3 combined points, dreadful underlying metrics, and four goals against from arguably our two best players? Mitch Marner has been on for 11(!) goals against in total, second worst in the playoffs. I don't think I've ever heard of someone setting the bar so low for star players.

You go ahead and call people ignorant, insane, and pathetic though. Kind of speaks to the desperation in your position.

 

[Beyonder91]

I did address that point, by saying that they are responsible for all their minutes and not just those played against Bergeron.

Counter-point, how is it delusional to expect more than 3 combined points, dreadful underlying metrics, and four goals against from arguably our two best players? Mitch Marner has been on for 11(!) goals against in total, second worst in the playoffs. I don't think I've ever heard of someone setting the bar so low for star players.

You go ahead and call people ignorant, insane, and pathetic though. Kind of speaks to the desperation in your position.

I've already explained probably a dozen times that they are in a SHUTDOWN role against the best line in the league and they have done that. That is why they are playing with Muzzin and Zaitsev and not Rielly.
The poor underlying metrics are once again that they are against the best line in hockey.
This isn't complicated stuff...

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Tavares was second(Reilly) in shot attempts yesterday with 7 . He had 3 shots on goal. He hit a post on a deflection. He looked dangerous to me all night. He will definitely start to cash in with more eforts like that.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I've already explained probably a dozen times that they are in a SHUTDOWN role against the best line in the league and they have done that. That is why they are playing with Muzzin and Zaitsev and not Rielly.

If you want to set your expectation for our two best players as just not getting scored on by the line they face the most then that is up to you. I don't think anyone will agree with you that it's the only expectation to have on one of the best lines of the regular season.

 

[Leafling]

Incorrect. The fact they have Muzzin/Zaitsev with them proves they are in a shutdown role. If it were otherwise Rielly (their clear best defenceman) would be out there as well.
Not to mention Babcock is also making changes on the fly on the road to get the matchup as well.

So u think we upgraded from kadri and komarov to JT and Marner this year, only to acheived the same goal.
Muzzin and Zaitsev have been solid so far. As I said people need to stop making excuses, if we had Rielly there everyone would be saying it's Hainsey's or Hyman's fault.

Simple fact, they havent been good enough and need to be better. JT and Marner are the type of players that can carry the players around them and thats why I expect them to tear it up next game. Frankly, thats our only chance of winning atm.

 

[Kiwi]

I did address that point, by saying that they are responsible for all their minutes and not just those played against Bergeron.

Counter-point, how is it delusional to expect more than 3 combined points, dreadful underlying metrics, and four goals against from arguably our two best players? Mitch Marner has been on for 11(!) goals against in total, second worst in the playoffs. I don't think I've ever heard of someone setting the bar so low for star players.

You go ahead and call people ignorant, insane, and pathetic though. Kind of speaks to the desperation in your position.

Better watch out, people don't like facts that don't look good for the "golden boys" on this board, no matter how badly there playing

It's much, much more fun complaining about non "good Toronto boys" than having to take a good hard long look at the current "fan favorites"

I'm not particularly impressed with Tavares or Nylander lines right now but I get the feeling that's going to be controversial

 

[Beyonder91]

So u think we upgraded from kadri and komarov to JT and Marner this year, only to acheived the same goal.
Muzzin and Zaitsev have been solid so far. As I said people need to stop making excuses, if we had Rielly there everyone would be saying it's Hainsey's or Hyman's fault.

Simple fact, they havent been good enough and need to be better. JT and Marner are the type of players that can carry the players around them and thats why I expect them to tear it up next game. Frankly, thats our only chance of winning atm.

I think this could be a far different series if we had Kadri/Nylander on the 3rd line. Instead we have Nylander and 2 wingers who can't generate any offense.
The difference in this series has been special teams. We aren't losing on the backs of Tavares/Marner 5on5. That's for sure... Bergeron line has only scored against them in 1 game so far.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Better watch out, people don't like facts that don't look good for the "golden boys" on this board, no matter how badly there playing

It's much, much more fun complaining about non "good Toronto boys" than having to take a good hard long look at the current "fan favorites"

I'm not particularly impressed with Tavares or Nylander lines right now but I get the feeling that's going to be controversial

The only line I'm impressed by is the fourth line, to be honest. The Nylander line can honestly not do much more than occasionally win the possession battle. The Tavares line is on their heels. The Matthews line makes things happen, but I kind of still feel that it happens in isolation.

I think this could be a far different series if we had Kadri/Nylander on the 3rd line. Instead we have Nylander and 2 wingers who can't generate any offense.
The difference in this series has been special teams. We aren't losing on the backs of Tavares/Marner 5on5. That's for sure... Bergeron line has only scored against them in 1 game so far.

Hey, there's something we can agree on.

 

[Beyonder91]

If you want to set your expectation for our two best players as just not getting scored on by the line they face the most then that is up to you. I don't think anyone will agree with you that it's the only expectation to have on one of the best lines of the regular season.

Do you think Babcock (or any top hockey mind for that matter) came into this series with your idea that Tavares/Marner should be outplaying Bergeron/Marchand?
You seem unable to use any sort of reasoning beyond "they should be scoring more". Any reasonable person is taking into account all the factors of the situation and realizing what type of a role they are in and judging them relative to the line they are up against.
You are using an extremely limited absolute approach to judging them rather than a broader relative approach. That is your flaw and why you don't have a clear picture of what is happening.

 

[Leafling]

I think this could be a far different series if we had Kadri/Nylander on the 3rd line. Instead we have Nylander and 2 wingers who can't generate any offense.
The difference in this series has been special teams. We aren't losing on the backs of Tavares/Marner 5on5. That's for sure... Bergeron line has only scored against them in 1 game so far.

At this point I have honestly given up on Nylander. He only got a few points on the back of Kadri having solid game up until that idiotic suspension.

To me the series is even now with JT against Berg and Matthews against Krejci. It depends on how anyone wants to look at it but I hope and expect JT and Matthews to win their individual matchups cause if they can't then why even watch these games.

And to the special teams... I love Babs, but that's on him. When u have this many scoring players available u can't go 0 for 3 in a game 6 man. He hasn't changed anything since December I think when the pp started to stink. It only ranked high overall because of the start we had.

 

[Kiwi]

The only line I'm impressed by is the fourth line, to be honest. The Nylander line can honestly not do much more than occasionally win the possession battle. The Tavares line is on their heels. The Matthews line makes things happen, but I kind of still feel that it happens in isolation.


Hey, there's something we can agree on.

I think you being generous with that one

The Tavares line is getting overrun as the series progresses, the Nylander line is just there, the 4th line tries but not much happens and Matthews scores on the Matthews line while the other two have had their moments but have been quiet overall

Then take special teams into account, it's not the prettiest of pictures

 

[Beyonder91]

I think you being generous with that one

The Tavares line is getting overrun as the series progresses, the Nylander line is just there, the 4th line tries but not much happens and Matthews scores on the Matthews line while the other two have had their moments but have been quiet overall

Then take special teams into account, it's not the prettiest of pictures

No question that Tavares is getting worn down... that is a major cause for concern going into game 7. Hyman is definitely banged up and Marner could be as well. It will be interesting to see if Babcock still tries to get the matchup with on the fly line changes...

 

[hotpaws]

Can someone post the link where Shanny/Dubas or Babs said the JT lines role in this series was to try to play D and they didn't want/expect them to score ?

I can't seem to find any quotes .

 

[Nithoniniel]

Do you think Babcock (or any top hockey mind for that matter) came into this series with your idea that Tavares/Marner should be outplaying Bergeron/Marchand?

The Tampa Bay did exactly that last year.

If you put two of the best players in the world on a line, your expectation can't be that they are just not to be killed by the opposing top line. But let's accept your premise and say that it's fine that they are on their heels against the Bergeron line given what they are. That just accentuates the issue that they are losing in the other half of their minutes against lesser opposition while not giving us any production. Struggling against Bergeron is fine, but two guys like that shouldn't struggle against Boston's mid six.

You seem unable to use any sort of reasoning beyond "they should be scoring more". Any reasonable person is taking into account all the factors of the situation and realizing what type of a roll they are in and judging them relative to the line they are up against.
You are using an extremely limited absolute approach to judging them rather than a broader relative approach. That is your flaw and why you don't have a clear picture of what is happening.

I think you should spend less time talking about me and more time talking about the subject.

 

[Beyonder91]

The Tampa Bay did exactly that last year.

If you put two of the best players in the world on a line, your expectation can't be that they are just not to be killed by the opposing top line. But let's accept your premise and say that it's fine that they are on their heels against the Bergeron line given what they are. That just accentuates the issue that they are losing in the other half of their minutes against lesser opposition while not giving us any production. Struggling against Bergeron is fine, but two guys like that shouldn't struggle against Boston's mid six.


I think you should spend less time talking about me and more time talking about the subject.

I didn't see the Tampa series but I'll take your word on that. I also imagine that Hedman was on the Tampa side though? That alone makes all the difference. Muzzin/Zaitsev can't be compared to a Norris winner.
I am the only one talking about this subject with any depth. All you are saying is they need to score more... I am trying to explain you can't just look at this in an absolute sense to see how they are doing. Your comments are almost all absolute in nature which is no way to judge performance in their role.

 

[Beyonder91]

Can someone post the link where Shanny/Dubas or Babs said the JT lines role in this series was to try to play D and they didn't want/expect them to score ?

I can't seem to find any quotes .

Their role is to neutralize the Bergeron line 5on5 which they have largely done. Bergeron line has only scored against them 5on5 in one game.

Sarcasm isn't helping your case... haha

 

[ZEBROA]

They dont have to score but if they dont go beyond a shutdown role, we will probably loose. If the ones with most points in regular season dont produce points then whats the point? The answer is not to go to the Nylander line, that would be stupid. And Matthews line cant do it all.

And special teams need to be better.