Tampa: Swap Stamkos and Kucherov on/off the LTIR?

[DownIsTheNewUp]

This, OP should officially say something along the lines of “(skating w team/ non contact)” I think a ton of people are entering here contacting without having actually read any Bolts beat write up, like coaches comments, context etc

Yep, too many people these days read a headline and get outraged. To say he is practicing is a huge stretch when in reality he's occasionally just been on the ice while the team practices doing an occasional drill.

 

[Total Bender]

Kucherov won't be ready before the playoffs. No discussion there. All indications on Stamkos say they don't expect it to be long term.

All of the information you have access to would be coming from an organization whose first priority would be not disclosing information that would indicate cap circumvention. My bet is he plays in rd 1.

 

[Sky04]

Everyone complaining would be fine with it if it was their team.

Well their team would actually have to be good or they'd be crying all the same.

 

[Sky04]

It is not convenient to have one of the league's best players miss the entire season.

It was also mentioned he would be gone until playoffs and now the end of the season is a few weeks away and he is skating... an obvious transition an injured player makes to getting back on the ice.

Also, if Kucherov is fit to play then the Lightning are obligated to activate him.

Lightning just following the rules.

Probably the funniest take in here, you got a bunch couch potato's thinking an injured player is someone who sits in a hospital bed until he can pop on his skates and instantly go back to play

That's like thinking someone recovering from knee/ankle surgery has full mobility the instant they stand up again, absolutely clueless people.

 

[The National]

What if they’re both just legitimately hurt?

 

[Chips]

What if they’re both just legitimately hurt?

Then the league should fundamentally change the rules for every other team to stop this from occaisionally happening every 7 years and prevent them from replenishing rosters in cases of injury

 

[smoneil]

What if they’re both just legitimately hurt?

I don't doubt that they are. I question the timing on Kucherov. This was not an injury unknown to the team. Point, Gourde, and Callahan all had the same surgery done by the same surgeon in recent years. It's a wear and tear injury that players generally play through for years and almost ALWAYS get surgery in the off-season (so as to only miss a month or two of the actual season). I'm not questioning the fact that Kucherov had a labrum tear in his hip. I question the timing--that, after spending the whole offseason trying (and failing) to become cap compliant, they--in a span of hours, and all just a week before the start of training camp--"discover" the Kucherov injury, decide to do the surgery on the eve of the season, and have contracts sorted for Cirelli and Cernak.

Is it a violation of the Cap? No.

Is it a pretty blatant circumvention of the cap in order to avoid making tough decisions on players they didn't want to lose (after failing to jettison players they DID want to lose)? Yup.

If this little loophole isn't wrapped up, I wouldn't be shocked to see lots of teams choose to send their players under the knife at strategic moments rather than actually become cap compliant.

 

[The National]

I don't doubt that they are. I question the timing on Kucherov. This was not an injury unknown to the team. Point, Gourde, and Callahan all had the same surgery done by the same surgeon in recent years. It's a wear and tear injury that players generally play through for years and almost ALWAYS get surgery in the off-season (so as to only miss a month or two of the actual season). I'm not questioning the fact that Kucherov had a labrum tear in his hip. I question the timing--that, after spending the whole offseason trying (and failing) to become cap compliant, they--in a span of hours, and all just a week before the start of training camp--"discover" the Kucherov injury, decide to do the surgery on the eve of the season, and have contracts sorted for Cirelli and Cernak.

Is it a violation of the Cap? No.

Is it a pretty blatant circumvention of the cap in order to avoid making tough decisions on players they didn't want to lose (after failing to jettison players they DID want to lose)? Yup.

If this little loophole isn't wrapped up, I wouldn't be shocked to see lots of teams choose to send their players under the knife at strategic moments rather than actually become cap compliant.

If all that is the case, how is it proven, and how would the league create a ruling to wrap up the loophole without effecting legitimate LTIR situations?

 

[smoneil]

If all that is the case, how is it proven, and how would the league create a ruling to wrap up the loophole without effecting legitimate LTIR situations?

I don't think you can, without really--and probably illegally--telling a player that they HAVE to tough it out until the off-season (just because players have historically done a thing doesn't mean that you can require them to do so, especially in things connected to health). I think the only solution it to have a rule that states that every team on the ice must be cap compliant for each game, including the playoffs. In that case, if Kucherov holds off on his surgery, when he DOES come back, the team has to sit someone of equal salary. It doesn't fix the problem completely (as they can just sit Johnson or whomever), but it at least prevents teams from having a competitive advantage over the competition.

 

[Sky04]

I don't doubt that they are. I question the timing on Kucherov. This was not an injury unknown to the team. Point, Gourde, and Callahan all had the same surgery done by the same surgeon in recent years. It's a wear and tear injury that players generally play through for years and almost ALWAYS get surgery in the off-season (so as to only miss a month or two of the actual season). I'm not questioning the fact that Kucherov had a labrum tear in his hip. I question the timing--that, after spending the whole offseason trying (and failing) to become cap compliant, they--in a span of hours, and all just a week before the start of training camp--"discover" the Kucherov injury, decide to do the surgery on the eve of the season, and have contracts sorted for Cirelli and Cernak.

Is it a violation of the Cap? No.

Is it a pretty blatant circumvention of the cap in order to avoid making tough decisions on players they didn't want to lose (after failing to jettison players they DID want to lose)? Yup.

If this little loophole isn't wrapped up, I wouldn't be shocked to see lots of teams choose to send their players under the knife at strategic moments rather than actually become cap compliant.

You do know they still have to make those decisions the following year right? It's not like this erased the problem. You also do know that under a full season this wouldn't work right? If you want to send your player for a 4month surgery in an 8 month season then go ahead?

To knowingly make your player play through an injury for 4 months and force him to have surgery mid-season in order to use the LTIR cap for the deadline seems like a great plan, lets see how that flies with the players, trainers and coaches Any other great ideas?

 

[The National]

I don't think you can, without really--and probably illegally--telling a player that they HAVE to tough it out until the off-season (just because players have historically done a thing doesn't mean that you can require them to do so, especially in things connected to health). I think the only solution it to have a rule that states that every team on the ice must be cap compliant for each game, including the playoffs. In that case, if Kucherov holds off on his surgery, when he DOES come back, the team has to sit someone of equal salary. It doesn't fix the problem completely (as they can just sit Johnson or whomever), but it at least prevents teams from having a competitive advantage over the competition.

That seems a bit far-fetched.

 

[Mach2]

I thought the first post was so over-the-top that the entire basis for this thread was for sarcasm.

But, no, the OP seems to actually think the Lightning being without Kucherov and now Stamkos (yet again) is somehow the latest example of them cheating. And putting Stamkos on LTIR after the trade deadline, when doing so is pretty much of no use for them whatsoever...

There is absolutely nothing expressed in my original post that suggests or alludes to any form of cheating by the Lightning in fully exercising their available LTIR options.
BTW, the effective date of placing Stamkos on LTIR was 9 April, which was before the trade deadline.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

No proof, but there’s a lot of smoke here. Feels like they are going to this well a bit often. Maybe it’s all a big coincidence, but feels like cap circumvention to me.

It's fun to joke around about it but they're not breaking any rules, so meh.

If you're not doing everything you can to win then you're not trying hard enough.

Maybe the league comes up with a rule someday that a player has to play a game before the TDL to be eligible for the playoffs, or that the 20 man roster playing a game in the playoffs has to be cap compliant while all the scratched guys are exempt, but until any of these things happen, they're good.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Is it a violation of the Cap? No.

Is it a pretty blatant circumvention of the cap in order to avoid making tough decisions on players they didn't want to lose (after failing to jettison players they DID want to lose)? Yup.

If this little loophole isn't wrapped up, I wouldn't be shocked to see lots of teams choose to send their players under the knife at strategic moments rather than actually become cap compliant.

Yeah, I'm sure players will be all for going out for surgery at "opportunistic" times when it suits the team's cap position, even if it harms the team's on-ice performance and potentially their future earnings. It's all so simple; how could it possibly go wrong?

 

[Chips]

I don't doubt that they are. I question the timing on Kucherov. This was not an injury unknown to the team. Point, Gourde, and Callahan all had the same surgery done by the same surgeon in recent years. It's a wear and tear injury that players generally play through for years and almost ALWAYS get surgery in the off-season (so as to only miss a month or two of the actual season). I'm not questioning the fact that Kucherov had a labrum tear in his hip. I question the timing--that, after spending the whole offseason trying (and failing) to become cap compliant, they--in a span of hours, and all just a week before the start of training camp--"discover" the Kucherov injury, decide to do the surgery on the eve of the season, and have contracts sorted for Cirelli and Cernak.

Is it a violation of the Cap? No.

Is it a pretty blatant circumvention of the cap in order to avoid making tough decisions on players they didn't want to lose (after failing to jettison players they DID want to lose)? Yup.

If this little loophole isn't wrapped up, I wouldn't be shocked to see lots of teams choose to send their players under the knife at strategic moments rather than actually become cap compliant.

What if he, as you said most players do (and we know he did the postseason) initially decided he’d try to power through again, only to realize “yeah, f*** that, this hurts”. Why do players eventually get the surgery? Because it gets worse (Seguin), and there’s only a short offseason. Players generally want to play too, what if his team respects him to let him make his own decision?

I’m fairly certain I read he actually got another shot for the injury before opting for surgery. Just played a tight bubble schedule, already been injured, very short offseason, short season crammed with games that could end up just being derailed by covid anyway either for the league or his team having bad luck. I’d imagine that wouldn’t be a fun season to play through and potentially just end up missing the playoffs because you injure yourself worse or just aren’t 100%


There’s a bunch of ways you can look at this, but I don’t really care or think of it as “circumvention” (with the negative connotation of breaking rules, because a player can get surgery whenever he wants since it’s his body), just sorta “convenient” this season happened to be short (and potentially a waste). The league can’t dictate when players get to have surgery, and they can’t say “here’s the window in which you need to get surgery to be eligible” because what if it’s a last second injury? You’re just going to screw other players more frequently to stop this situation every 7 years?


Imo there’s nothing wrong with them (legally) avoiding the headache of trying to trade players due a big raise in conditions in which you pretty much have to take equal money back anyway, knowing full well you’re possibly just going to have to trade those assets to bring back in players lol.

They were “lucky” of the timing big picture w covid, they were “lucky” they’ve done so well with drafts and acquisitions that they didn’t have to trade for players, just kept the ones they had (when, again, they would have just added players with Kucherov out).

Idk if the rest of the league from managers perspective can fault the Bolts for not only trying to not get screwed by covid circumstances, but actually managing to benefit to some extent. In a normal year they would make those trades because it would be far easier to move money; this year they would have to massively overpay people to take money. I feel like we might have seen an offersheet on their guys if 1. Teams didn’t like/understand what they were doing and 2. Actually had cap space/financial situation to take money without moving money.

 

[smoneil]

Yeah, I'm sure players will be all for going out for surgery at "opportunistic" times when it suits the team's cap position, even if it harms the team's on-ice performance and potentially their future earnings. It's all so simple; how could it possibly go wrong?

Did I think players were likely to start ignoring play in order to face the goalie and use their stick blade to try and block their view of the play? No. Hell, I didn't think it was even likely that Avery was likely to do it again against anyone not named Brodeur. The league was still right to recognize that the rules technically didn't address the problem and to create a rule to cover such a scenario. They even implemented the new rule so that it was in effect by the next morning during the playoffs. Regardless of how likely you or anyone else thinks this will be repeated, it is clearly happening right now, and the league should adjust the rules to cover it--by requiring all teams to be cap compliant during the playoffs. Each round, a team should have to file an official, cap compliant roster, and those are the players allowed to play in that round. Frankly, it seems like an easy enough fix for a problem that has now happened three times as often as the "Avery rule." If you are so certain that your team is not at all trying to exceed the salary cap to cheat for an unfair advantage, why would you oppose such a rule ensuring that every team is on equal financial footing? After all, wasn't TB one of the teams burned when Chicago did this in 14/15?

Also, this isn't exactly the first time a team has abused the "no cap in the playoffs + expensive player on IR" loophole. Chicago did it in 2014-2015 and the Pens did it in 2012-2013.

 

[smoneil]

What if he, as you said most players do (and we know he did the postseason) initially decided he’d try to power through again, only to realize “yeah, f*** that, this hurts”. Why do players eventually get the surgery? Because it gets worse (Seguin), and there’s only a short offseason. Players generally want to play too, what if his team respects him to let him make his own decision?

I’m fairly certain I read he actually got another shot for the injury before opting for surgery. Just played a tight bubble schedule, already been injured, very short offseason, short season crammed with games that could end up just being derailed by covid anyway either for the league or his team having bad luck. I’d imagine that wouldn’t be a fun season to play through and potentially just end up missing the playoffs because you injure yourself worse or just aren’t 100%


There’s a bunch of ways you can look at this, but I don’t really care or think of it as “circumvention” (with the negative connotation of breaking rules, because a player can get surgery whenever he wants since it’s his body), just sorta “convenient” this season happened to be short (and potentially a waste). The league can’t dictate when players get to have surgery, and they can’t say “here’s the window in which you need to get surgery to be eligible” because what if it’s a last second injury? You’re just going to screw other players more frequently to stop this situation every 7 years?

As I said--it isn't against the rules as currently written. And my suggested fix to the rules would completely allow the players to choose surgery whenever they like.

And I also know that there is no way to prove whether there was actual shadiness going on or just unbelievably good timing for TB. That said, the chronology of those three months between the Stanley Cup and the beginning of training camp was highly suspicious. They tried for months to move contracts they preferred to jettison while also holding off on signing their last couple of RFAs, and then suddenly just a week before the start of the season, they find this hip issue? And then they have everything--contracts, surgery, etc, squared away in a day or two? Let's just say that the whole timeline trends towards the suspicious side of "convenient" and anyone who says it doesn't is kidding themselves.

Imo there’s nothing wrong with them (legally) avoiding the headache of trying to trade players due a big raise in conditions in which you pretty much have to take equal money back anyway, knowing full well you’re possibly just going to have to trade those assets to bring back in players lol.

They were “lucky” of the timing big picture w covid, they were “lucky” they’ve done so well with drafts and acquisitions that they didn’t have to trade for players, just kept the ones they had (when, again, they would have just added players with Kucherov out).

Did you see anything wrong with what Avery did to Brodeur?

Idk if the rest of the league from managers perspective can fault the Bolts for not only trying to not get screwed by covid circumstances, but actually managing to benefit to some extent. In a normal year they would make those trades because it would be far easier to move money; this year they would have to massively overpay people to take money.

They didn't have to move money at all. They just wouldn't have been able to sign Cirelli and Cernak.

 

[Chips]

As I said--it isn't against the rules as currently written. And my suggested fix to the rules would completely allow the players to choose surgery whenever they like.

And I also know that there is no way to prove whether there was actual shadiness going on or just unbelievably good timing for TB. That said, the chronology of those three months between the Stanley Cup and the beginning of training camp was highly suspicious. They tried for months to move contracts they preferred to jettison while also holding off on signing their last couple of RFAs, and then suddenly just a week before the start of the season, they find this hip issue? And then they have everything--contracts, surgery, etc, squared away in a day or two? Let's just say that the whole timeline trends towards the suspicious side of "convenient" and anyone who says it doesn't is kidding themselves.
They didn’t suddenly “discover” the hip issue, they’d known about it since before the playoffs *and he’d been seeing doctors over the course of the offseason, again he got a shot to see if it’d get better enough, and theyd been evaluating it. It had been written about over the course of the offseason.

and again there’s nothing wrong with him getting the surgery when he did. Both because it’s his decision and he himself likely didn’t want to sit out several months and barely do anything;


Did you see anything wrong with what Avery did to Brodeur?

You’d have to fill me in on this one because I don’t know what you’re referring to, or how two players interacting has anything to do with GM / team decisions on a players health in massively abnormally circumstance brought on by Covid in which much of the league is simultaneously dealing with cap crunches and or trying to save hemorrhaging money, and are requiring massive overpayments to take money.

This isn’t a normal situation, where Tampa’s option is to either trade for roughly fair value, or get some “bonus” to their roster. Washington massively overpaid the wings just to take an overpaid fourth liner, because the Wings didn’t have to make the trade and knew their cap situation.

Again I’d willingly bet most/all GMs understand this perfectly legal move, to not get completely thoroughly screwed, to have a perfectly justifiable (by nature of the injury being real) surgery for a player who quite possibly genuinely didn’t want surgery to begin with, hence the shot. Don’t conflate players thoughts and desires with executives, and honestly don’t automatically assume all executives are heartless robots. They like their players.

They didn't have to move money at all. They just wouldn't have been able to sign Cirelli and Cernak.

(*not sure if the quote automatically opens on PC, or if you’re on mobile but I bolded some answers into the quote itself, so read those first lol)

*RFAs generally ( especially who came of good/great years and a cup), If you trade him you’re essentially trading money, especially when the other teams are aware of your situation. I assumed sergachev would have been the more likely trade, or Cirelli since they’re both worth more, more money to save.

all the same, you absolutely can not make a player get surgery who doesn’t want surgery, and you absolutely cannot make a player not get surgery when he wants it. This is a rare occurrence brought on almost entirely by “luck”

the combination of Covid circumstance shortening the season, that the player injured happens to be their star, that the team happens to have an exceptionally deep roster (that they can keep players, rather than add players as they would have done anyway; mostly the same shit, you end up with a full roster and a guy returning) and that the Covid season is the year their players contracts were due.

you really have to specifically try, and ignore a bunch of factors, to frame this as primarily as a bunch of shady, meticulously planned details over years to game the system. It’s 90% convenience of Covid. And what’s left is simply legal, so what’s the issue? They have a genuinely injured guy, he wanted to play, but genuinely needed surgery.

There’s a reason this conversation is 99.99% paranoid fans scared of Tampa’s on-paper roster, rather than tons of NHL official complaints, Offersheets to screw tampa etc, since they announced day 1 when he’d be returning.

 

[Chips]

Did I think players were likely to start ignoring play in order to face the goalie and use their stick blade to try and block their view of the play? No. Hell, I didn't think it was even likely that Avery was likely to do it again against anyone not named Brodeur. The league was still right to recognize that the rules technically didn't address the problem and to create a rule to cover such a scenario. They even implemented the new rule so that it was in effect by the next morning during the playoffs. Regardless of how likely you or anyone else thinks this will be repeated, it is clearly happening right now,
actually this is sort of the repeat. Patrick Kane was placed LTIR right before the deadline, Hawks added three players, nothing was done about it.
(Also, just now saw you said it below... so why do you expect the league will see it as a problem now? Why will they change it now instead of “right away” or ever.)

and the league should adjust the rules to cover it--by requiring all teams to be cap compliant during the playoffs.

How? Like, actually understanding the financials and how basically everything else relates to contracts, how do you suppose the league enforces this without creating more common problems elsewhere, or how would you justify them?

do you remove the trade deadline, and it’s benefits? Or just the LTIR in itself, screwing teams, good or bad, that lose players to injury “sry hope you got some good AHLers” for the other 90-100% of their season?

or are you actually proposing allowing players to put in time/effort/heart to battle to the playoffs only to sit out because their team decided they were the expendable ones?

Or the injured players, not choosing to have been injured, “sry, you’re healthy now and did nothing wrong, but you’re not going to play the most important games of your career; sry players, sry teams, sry fans, sry marketing people and everyone else.”


Good luck convincing the owners, GMs or PA of that. Or what am I maybe missing?

Each round, a team should have to file an official, cap compliant roster, and those are the players allowed to play in that round. Frankly, it seems like an easy enough fix for a problem that has now happened three times as often as the "Avery rule." If you are so certain that your team is not at all trying to exceed the salary cap to cheat for an unfair advantage, why would you oppose such a rule ensuring that every team is on equal financial footing? After all, wasn't TB one of the teams burned when Chicago did this in 14/15?

Also, this isn't exactly the first time a team has abused the "no cap in the playoffs + expensive player on IR" loophole. Chicago did it in 2014-2015 and the Pens did it in 2012-2013.

 

[smoneil]

All of the things you mention are either straw men or are things that are done now anyway. You don't need to remove the trade deadline or the LTIR. You just need to know that if your LTIR player is due back before the end of the playoffs, that you'll have some difficult decisions to make.

Also, there are players on every team who put in the time and effort and then get benched during the playoffs. Being on a roster is not a guarantee that you will play. And if teams get a reputation for running like this, it might make players less likely to sign with them (which would be a good move).

All I'm saying is that every team should need to submit a cap-compliant roster before each series of the playoffs. That would ensure that no team has a roster that exceeds the cap by several million dollars like TB this year or Chicago/the Pens in their years. Chicago won the Cup the year they did it. The Pens went to the ECF (where they ran into a grudge match against the Bruins, who were pissed off over the Iginla signing). If TB wins this year? That may be the impetus to do something about the loophole, because it would establish a pretty obvious competitive advantage.

Also, I'm not "scared of Tampa's roster on paper." My team isn't playing TB this season and, barring a miracle, they aren't making the playoffs, either (and even if they did, TB wouldn't need Kucherov to beat them this year--the Rangers are still a group of kids who have yet to really cut their teeth in post-season play). I fully understand that there are some financial benefits and drawbacks in some markets that really can't be balanced via the rulebook (like sponsorship/business opportunities in NY, or the tax situation in TB and a few other states). But this seems like an issue that could be solved with a very simple adjustment to the rule book.

 

[Stephen]

Looks like the Lightning just announced Stamkos' injury is not related to the core muscle injury from last March. Which is nice of them to be semi transparent, potentially laying the ground work for a first round return.

In terms of the LTIR baton hand off with Kucherov, I don't mind it even if it's 'creative' but big picture I think the NHL just needs some softer cap mechanisms so teams aren't necessarily being dismantled in the name of 'fairness.'

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Did I think players were likely to start ignoring play in order to face the goalie and use their stick blade to try and block their view of the play? No. Hell, I didn't think it was even likely that Avery was likely to do it again against anyone not named Brodeur. The league was still right to recognize that the rules technically didn't address the problem and to create a rule to cover such a scenario. They even implemented the new rule so that it was in effect by the next morning during the playoffs.

Actually, I believe there was already a rule that applied. The league merely tweaked the language around it and specifically clarified that what Avery did was prohibited. Regardless, we're talking about an on-ice rule that does not require the NHLPA's approval to be changed vs. a collectively bargained item that does require the NHLPA's approval to be changed. Note the difference.

Regardless of how likely you or anyone else thinks this will be repeated, it is clearly happening right now, and the league should adjust the rules to cover it--by requiring all teams to be cap compliant during the playoffs. Each round, a team should have to file an official, cap compliant roster, and those are the players allowed to play in that round. Frankly, it seems like an easy enough fix for a problem that has now happened three times as often as the "Avery rule." If you are so certain that your team is not at all trying to exceed the salary cap to cheat for an unfair advantage, why would you oppose such a rule ensuring that every team is on equal financial footing? After all, wasn't TB one of the teams burned when Chicago did this in 14/15?

Also, this isn't exactly the first time a team has abused the "no cap in the playoffs + expensive player on IR" loophole. Chicago did it in 2014-2015 and the Pens did it in 2012-2013.

And? I didn't have a problem with it either time. Kane was legitimately injured, he missed about 6 weeks. Pretty standard for a broken collarbone, even with surgery. The fact that it timed right with when the playoffs started is not proof that Chicago screwed over everyone wrt the salary cap in and of itself. If it were really that big of a deal, GMs would have demanded a thorough investigation back in 2015-16 and closed the loophole when they discussed it. They would have gone after it in the 2020 CBA extension. They didn't touch it either time.

If you or anyone else has proof that Kucherov is healthy enough to play, by all means - let's see it. If he's healthy enough for the start of the playoffs, fine. I've got no problem with it. But if he's 100% and the Lightning know it and are merely parking him on the sidelines for cap convenience, ... well, that's a different story - but again, I'm not screaming foul until/unless there's proof he's fine and something improper is going on.

And before you ask: I noted years ago that the lack of a real cap mechanism in the playoffs was a potential problem. I identified possible solutions back then. Nothing changed. People told me no way will that ever happen. Sorry the rest of the world is finally catching up to stuff I noted some 15 years ago that could have been fixed pre-emptively. Maybe we should create another half-assed solution that creates more problems than it solves.

 

[smoneil]

Actually, I believe there was already a rule that applied. The league merely tweaked the language around it and specifically clarified that what Avery did was prohibited. Regardless, we're talking about an on-ice rule that does not require the NHLPA's approval to be changed vs. a collectively bargained item that does require the NHLPA's approval to be changed. Note the difference.


And? I didn't have a problem with it either time. Kane was legitimately injured, he missed about 6 weeks. Pretty standard for a broken collarbone, even with surgery. The fact that it timed right with when the playoffs started is not proof that Chicago screwed over everyone wrt the salary cap in and of itself. If it were really that big of a deal, GMs would have demanded a thorough investigation back in 2015-16 and closed the loophole when they discussed it. They would have gone after it in the 2020 CBA extension. They didn't touch it either time.

If you or anyone else has proof that Kucherov is healthy enough to play, by all means - let's see it. If he's healthy enough for the start of the playoffs, fine. I've got no problem with it. But if he's 100% and the Lightning know it and are merely parking him on the sidelines for cap convenience, ... well, that's a different story - but again, I'm not screaming foul until/unless there's proof he's fine and something improper is going on.

Straw man. At no point did I ever claim that Kucherov wasn't injured or that this isn't the usual recovery time for that surgery. The same applies to the situation with Kane and with the Pens when they did it at the trade deadline. I do think TB opted to go this route specifically to avoid dealing with their cap issues for another year, which is what makes the whole thing feel a bit shadier than the previous two.

My point is that--regardless of the injury--teams should be on equal financial footing in the post-season. Chicago effectively played the post-season that year with an extra 5 million dollars of cap space relative to every other team. TB's "bonus cap" will be even larger this season. The only solution is to keep the cap in place for the playoffs by having teams submit a cap-compliant active roster for each round. Under that fix, you could still replace players that get injured, but when those players come back, you don't get to keep them AND their replacements. Not one TB fan has given me a valid reason why that rule shouldn't happen.

 

[Chips]

Straw man. At no point did I ever claim that Kucherov wasn't injured or that this isn't the usual recovery time for that surgery. The same applies to the situation with Kane and with the Pens when they did it at the trade deadline. I do think TB opted to go this route specifically to avoid dealing with their cap issues for another year, which is what makes the whole thing feel a bit shadier than the previous two.

My point is that--regardless of the injury--teams should be on equal financial footing in the post-season. Chicago effectively played the post-season that year with an extra 5 million dollars of cap space relative to every other team. TB's "bonus cap" will be even larger this season. The only solution is to keep the cap in place for the playoffs by having teams submit a cap-compliant active roster for each round. Under that fix, you could still replace players that get injured, but when those players come back, you don't get to keep them AND their replacements. Not one TB fan has given me a valid reason why that rule shouldn't happen.

How is it shady? It’s literally what the rule is for? If you have a guy legitimately injured who will need surgery, yea, you might as well get it.

It’s convenient timing sure, sometimes things are just convenient. Like, when your opponent entering the first round happens to lose a star or two to injury after the deadline which often happens. Now you’re potentially icing tens of millions more dollars then they are.
There’s a huge degree of luck involved, good or bad, for every team every year involving injuries to themselves or the other team.


Unless you do think they’re lying about the injury, then what do you think about those situations? Because from a competition roster-vs-roster situation it’s essentially identical, the timing cross section of Kucherov, RFAs and Covid (and the fact this happened to a team that just happened to be deep; this would be irrelevant on a worse managed team) just worked out compared to the timing of your matchup and this teams loss; good for you building better depth. The degree of luck here being so big is why you hardly ever see this, there’s no way this could have been even a medium term plan without some ability to force covid. They’ve gotten the chance to kick the can a year.


LTIR is about 90-100% of most of the leagues regular season. Icing as competitive a roster as possible with the same allowance as long as possible (the entire regular season it has to fit) to even make the playoffs, compete for home ice (and just generally be more entertaining, more player movement not to mention the benefit to players themselves who often get traded off crap teams to compete in the playoffs from these situations.) That is equal financial footing, at least in most eyes around the league.

theres no clean solution to this “problem” that doesn’t just create other, more likely/frequent issues for more teams.
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Also, I think my prior posts made noteworthy points you’re conveniently bypassing claiming “straw man” when they’ve directly responded to things you’ve said. You say this isn’t about legality, okay fine, so what is it?

you mention general fairness, abuse of rules, blah blah, I give multiple factors explaining how this situation is perfectly reasonable, if imperfect, and why you’re almost certainly in the minority opinion, why the league more than likely doesn’t find this some abuse.

The injury was real, the choices both the team AND player had respective to what one could reasonably assume they’d desire;

you’ve anticipated and or argued that the league should or will change this;
I’ve countered with reasons the league wouldn’t want to, problems your solution would create,

and as best I can how all teams understand the exceptional conditions and possibly figure, okay, they’ve got some cap problems with their backs against the wall.. and their players genuinely injured, short season; lucky them catching a break instead of getting completely f***ed asset-wise in trades.

 

[AndreRoy]

All you conspiracy nuts, in order for your thesis to make sense, must believe that Kucherov - one of the most competitive players in the league; a man who when asked why he never smiled replied that he would smile when he was the best player in the world - would agree to unnecessarily sit out an entire season just to temporarily give his team cap relief.

You lot may want to loosen your tinfoil hats a little.