Tampa: Swap Stamkos and Kucherov on/off the LTIR?

[BigDaddyLurch]

They got lucky. Let’s just make sure to characterize the situation accurately.

No, you're just being bitter...Stammer got hurt, not "lucky" for them...no one is "lucky" when one of their stars get hurt...same with Kucherov; there's nothing "lucky" about losing one of the top players in the League...BriseBois is making the best of the situation...being bitter about it is just sour grapes...

 

[M88K]

All these excuses for Tampa Bay so how about this, if LTIR required the player to be out all season including the playoffs then I wonder how injured Kucherov really would’ve been?

They needed Kucherov to be on LTIR for multiple reasons; yes maybe he is injured but the timing is all too convenient. They couldn’t or wouldn’t trade Johnson, Killorn or Palat so that they could sign Cirelli, Sergachev and Cernak. Most teams up against the cap have to trade guys they cannot sign or make space other ways like trading existing contracts. No one offered to help TB plus they didn’t wanna lose their RFA’s so they hatched this legal, but shady AF, deal where Kucherov sat out the whole regular season.

Bottom line is this, LTIR itself is fine, teams have used it in the past to help out other small market teams by taking on contracts for players that’ll never play again (David Clarkson, Marc Savard, Marian, Gaborik). But those players do not suddenly become available when the playoffs role around. The league needs to make LTIR players ineligible for the playoffs or they need to make the teams cap compliant in the playoffs.

Tampa literally could’ve traded for $50 Million in expiring contracts at the deadline, stashed them on LTIR for the rest of the regular season, then activated all of them for Game 1 of the playoffs.

No they literally couldn't have

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

No, you're just being bitter...Stammer got hurt, not "lucky" for them...no one is "lucky" when one of their stars get hurt...same with Kucherov; there's nothing "lucky" about losing one of the top players in the League...BriseBois is making the best of the situation...being bitter about it is just sour grapes...

The Kucherov situation was absolutely lucky, when you consider he’ll be good to go for the playoffs. Credit to the Lightning for pushing the limits of the cap and taking advantage.

The league will correct the LTIR navigation in the offseason. This won’t happen again.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

No, you're just being bitter...Stammer got hurt, not "lucky" for them...no one is "lucky" when one of their stars get hurt...same with Kucherov; there's nothing "lucky" about losing one of the top players in the League...BriseBois is making the best of the situation...being bitter about it is just sour grapes...

The luck is that Tampa can keep the elite core together. They didn't need to make desperation trades last offseason.

 

[Sky04]

Not exactly the same situation Seguin was never on ltir
Bishop and Johns are.
But same surgery and seguins still not back with the team despite being at practices now

The second part was a joke, the point was they had the same injury. Seguin had his surgery a month earlier than Kucherov and still isn't back but Kucherov is somehow healthy and just sitting out till the playoffs.

Seguin's team is fighting for a playoff spot, they'd want him back as soon as possible. He's over 5 months since he had surgery, which is common for this type of injury, unless you're trying to make up conspiracy theories.

 

[drktmplr12]

Are you a doctor?

appeal to authority. anyways these "team doctors" regularly send concussed guys back out early and let them play with broken bones and partially torn ligaments. let be real, my opinion is not any more valid than anyone else here.

He's been practicing for weeks. He traveled with the team.

He's still not a full participant. It's part of his rehab.

part of his rehab? he had hip surgery like 14 weeks ago. takes 8-10 weeks of quality PT to get back to normal and he's got the best PT money can buy. some act like he had open-heart surgery.

sorry TBL is 100% milking this cow.

 

[Sky04]

appeal to authority. anyways these "team doctors" regularly send concussed guys back out early and let them play with broken bones and partially torn ligaments. let be real, my opinion is not any more valid than anyone else here.



part of his rehab? he had hip surgery like 14 weeks ago. takes 8-10 weeks of quality PT to get back to normal and he's got the best PT money can buy. some act like he had open-heart surgery.

sorry TBL is 100% milking this cow.

So that's a no on the doctor?

 

[Wretched Oil]

Stamkos has been disappointing for years, I consider him a joke.

 

[DMXATF23]

I love how all these conspiracy theorists just completely refuse to acknowledge Seguin, denial isn’t just a river in Africa, folks.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

These threads are just false and ignorant speculation. Nothing has changed for Kucherov.

 

[North Cole]

Yes I'm sure it's a massive benefit to have Kucherov come into the playoffs having not played any hockey in a year... Whatever he gets from being physically fresh, I feel like he loses in lost playing time and rust. Don't think we can assume he's just going to walk back into being a 30p playoff performer day 1. Lets wait and see what happens before calling the Ghost busters.

As an Oiler fan I'm just happy we are pretty much locked into a spot and get to see some playoff hockey. This really isn't worth losing sleep over.

 

[M88K]

I love how all these conspiracy theorists just completely refuse to acknowledge Seguin, denial isn’t just a river in Africa, folks.

It doesn't fit the narrative, welcome to the world since 2005.
If it doesn't fit the narrative it doesn't really exist.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Still seems high risk to me. I’ll take players who have played the entire season 5 times out of 5 over cold players who haven’t played in almost a year or half a year


But again I think you must acknowledge to employ this strategy/cap circumvention you must be an effective team without your top players.

so I think it potentially creates a conundrum, you’re theoretically scratching two players/altering lines that helped you get into the playoffs to secure the roles of cold and maybe not totally 100% players.


Could easily see this blowing up in their face

 

[Mickey Marner]

For those criticizing Tampa, do you genuinely believe Kucherov is healthy enough to play and that Tampa is just holding him off until the playoffs to circumvent the cap?

I genuinely believe that their initial wait and see if it heals approach was intentionally used to postpone an inevitable surgery to a more convenient date.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I genuinely believe that their initial wait and see if it heals approach was intentionally used to postpone an inevitable surgery to a more convenient date.

Surgery is typically something you do as a last resort, the wait as see approach is used all the time. Besides, I highly doubt Kucherov would have agreed to put off a needed surgery.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I genuinely believe that their initial wait and see if it heals approach was intentionally used to postpone an inevitable surgery to a more convenient date.

Pretty much any team would do that during a playoff run.

Seguin probably could have gotten surgery way earlier.

Anywho, if kucherov is indeed healthy enough to play and not taken off il and if stamkos is not injured enough to be put there, we should see consequences. It's hard to prove it but if it is the case, we can't accept it either.

I laughed when Kovalchuk got Devils the punishment and I'm loving every bit about the recapture penalties.

 

[HarryLime]

classic Glasskos

 

[Ray Mercer]

Stamkos is a great player but man is he a bandaid. The guy is about durable as tissue paper.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Imagine adding an Art Ross winning top five forward just before the playoffs. Tampa looks primed for another Cup run.

 

[ShaneinTpa]

Surgery is typically something you do as a last resort, the wait as see approach is used all the time. Besides, I highly doubt Kucherov would have agreed to put off a needed surgery.

Agreed and beyond that, lost in all of this nobody even knew there was going to be a season during the time Kucherov was deliberating over having surgery or not.

 

[Chips]

How convenient. Why have a salary cap if teams like Tampa Bay can use LTIR to clearly circumvent the cap? What happens next season when the Lightning cannot make trades to get under the cap? This season it was Kucherov that was conveniently injured for just the regular season; next year will it be Stamkos or Vasilevskii?

Why can’t they make trades to get under the cap? Somebody will work it out even if it means a team has to get screwed.


Btw thanks for making yet another thread on this instead of posting in one of the others.

it is convenient. That’s literally why they have the rule, so when teams inevitably have injuries, they can move guys around without constantly doing little mini waiver moves and whatnot, and or proceeding without using light rosters, through the season.

In any case, Kucherov isn’t automatically returning now that Stammer is on IR, he’s slowly building back conditioning, strength, flexibility etc as one typically does after a major surgery and much time off.
He was already practicing and would have been anyway. Whether they rush him back or not likely will depend on whether the team is struggling to secure home ice or not

and or, someone with deeper knowledge of their roster could answer this, maybe both guys are staying out, but the team has other depth guys they may want to bring on to the roster, instead of bringing back Kucherov early and having a roster with fewer players right under the salary limit. Teams don’t like carrying fewer players

 

[drktmplr12]

So that's a no on the doctor?

That's a no on the Dr smartass. Maybe you do know this maybe you don't, but most are walking the same or next day after hip surgery. 3-6 weeks of taking it easy then you can really start rehabilitation and PT.

Understand that I don't care if I convince your smug ass or anyone else here of my opinion. The reality is that he has been able to fully exercise for several weeks and you are only kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

As others have also said, conincdence

 

[Chips]

I mean I get what you're saying - but teams simply shouldn't be that good. You'll almost never see this again.

Can you imagine if Edmonton tried to do this with McDavid or Drai? No - because without McDavid or Drai they're bottom feeders and no playoffs.
Even a team as solid as Toronto - you remove Marner or Matthews - probably even Tavares who plays that critical 2C role - and they probably miss the playoffs.

The most ridiculous part here is that Tampa is able to still win the President's Trophy (which they will) without the player who swept all the awards a year ago.

What do you mean “tried to do this”? Genuinely asking I may misread, but it seems like suggesting an injury/recovery here is bs for one player or another.

if Edmonton or Toronto was right under the cap, that they actually had to carry light rosters instead of having those extra guys teams prefer, and had to keep risking guys through waivers to save money; and or if they needed to pull up another depth guy who cost $; if their star got injured would they put him on LTIR if he applied? Duh


I agree with the roster quality thing so far as people are just pissy because of how good the team is, when they want their own team to win. You’d hear 90-100% less bitching if most teams did this.

there is 0 evidence of any wrong doing here. The rule is being used as intended. That a great player missed time and will return for the playoffs is convenient/lucky of the shortness of the season. Timing, everything has to work out. You hardly see this happen with as good a player on as good a team because most teams aren’t as good, and the odds of the timing working out perfectly not just for any team, but this specific team or one like it are so slim.

Unless there comes any evidence of any fairness about any aspect, this is less “cap circumvention” (carrying a connotation of breaking the rules), and far more comfortable to facing your round one opponent riiight as they lose their star forward. It’s really lucky, shit like that happens. (Or the team facing Tampa, sometimes you lose that star forward, same shit in terms of luck influencing literally every team some way or another any year)

 

[burstnbloom]

This is not cheating, it's called being a good GM...

this is the answer. It's literally in the rules that you can use LTIR to increase your cap spend. It's probably unsustainable but its pretty smart.

 

[Dicky113]

For those criticizing Tampa, do you genuinely believe Kucherov is healthy enough to play and that Tampa is just holding him off until the playoffs to circumvent the cap?

Uh, yes.