Tampa: Swap Stamkos and Kucherov on/off the LTIR?

[Chips]

No, you're just being bitter...Stammer got hurt, not "lucky" for them...no one is "lucky" when one of their stars get hurt...same with Kucherov; there's nothing "lucky" about losing one of the top players in the League...BriseBois is making the best of the situation...being bitter about it is just sour grapes...

It is an isnt. From different perspectives (the manager vs player) and keeping in mind players get injured all the time, and he’s likely returning.

that said, I’d suggest they’re way more lucky about Kucherov. Since he’s already on LTIR this mostly benefits them not having to do any mini cap moves like moving guys through waivers, and or they can pull a depth guy or two and not having to juggle. It gives them some space, you may as well use it.

 

[Chips]

Uh, yes.

Based on what?


I guess the league is in cahoots? Because they have official protocol to evaluate all IR appointments, not just the long term ones; and because Tampa announced they day he had surgery that he would be back for playoffs. I guess everyone, every other team is rooting for Tampa this year, even against themselves.

they’ve been transparent, I doubt 30 other teams didn’t bother to ask to look into it (unless they knew it already was)

you really think teams would just sit back and let someone both cheat, AND announce they’re cheating? That’s some next level paranoia


Maybe they’ll determine Kucherov is ready to return, and I’m sure people will ask and look into it. But this could also be a basic management move, you’ve seen teams juggling players through waivers all year to save money, losing some players they’d prefer to keep. What happens when you lose a player? You need to bring people up, how do you do that when you’re tight under the cap?

 

[bobholly39]

What do you mean “tried to do this”? Genuinely asking I may misread, but it seems like suggesting an injury/recovery here is bs for one player or another.

if Edmonton or Toronto was right under the cap, that they actually had to carry light rosters instead of having those extra guys teams prefer, and had to keep risking guys through waivers to save money; and or if they needed to pull up another depth guy who cost $; if their star got injured would they put him on LTIR if he applied? Duh


I agree with the roster quality thing so far as people are just pissy because of how good the team is, when they want their own team to win. You’d hear 90-100% less bitching if most teams did this.

there is 0 evidence of any wrong doing here. The rule is being used as intended. That a great player missed time and will return for the playoffs is convenient/lucky of the shortness of the season. Timing, everything has to work out. You hardly see this happen with as good a player on as good a team because most teams aren’t as good, and the odds of the timing working out perfectly not just for any team, but this specific team or one like it are so slim.

Unless there comes any evidence of any fairness about any aspect, this is less “cap circumvention” (carrying a connotation of breaking the rules), and far more comfortable to facing your round one opponent riiight as they lose their star forward. It’s really lucky, shit like that happens. (Or the team facing Tampa, sometimes you lose that star forward, same shit in terms of luck influencing literally every team some way or another any year)

To the bolded - what are you missing exactly?

All season long fans have speculated that Kucherov wasn't as injured as they were saying, and they only used LITR as a reason to save on cap. I'm not saying it's true - but I'm just making a parallel - how it's insane that even if they did do that purposefully, that they're good enough to pull it off and still contend for president's trophy.

If Edmonton tried to keep McDavid or Drai off their roster during season to save on cap and have them come fresh for playoffs - they'd be a bottom feeder who misses playoffs.

 

[smoneil]

No, you're just being bitter...Stammer got hurt, not "lucky" for them...no one is "lucky" when one of their stars get hurt...same with Kucherov; there's nothing "lucky" about losing one of the top players in the League...BriseBois is making the best of the situation...being bitter about it is just sour grapes...

The issue is that, because of TBL's suspicious gaming of the cap, when they did lose one of their stars, they had a spare ready to step in. Most teams, when they lose a star to injury, have to make do with a 2nd liner moving up. I know when Panarin was out due to the political situation, it sure would have been nice if we could have just added a Kucherov. When Shesterkin was injured and we had to roll with Kinkaid and Georgiev (when the latter seemingly forgot how to play the game for that span), it would have been nice to have Lundqvist to go out there and calm the ship. But no, we had to buy Lundqvist out and carry a cap charge, because the Rangers (and seemingly every team but Tampa) are actually held accountable for the salary cap.

 

[Dicky113]

Based on what?


I guess the league is in cahoots? Because they have official protocol to evaluate all IR appointments, not just the long term ones; and because Tampa announced they day he had surgery that he would be back for playoffs. I guess everyone, every other team is rooting for Tampa this year, even against themselves.

they’ve been transparent, I doubt 30 other teams didn’t bother to ask to look into it (unless they knew it already was)

you really think teams would just sit back and let someone both cheat, AND announce they’re cheating? That’s some next level paranoia


Maybe they’ll determine Kucherov is ready to return, and I’m sure people will ask and look into it. But this could also be a basic management move, you’ve seen teams juggling players through waivers all year to save money, losing some players they’d prefer to keep. What happens when you lose a player? You need to bring people up, how do you do that when you’re tight under the cap?

No proof, but there’s a lot of smoke here. Feels like they are going to this well a bit often. Maybe it’s all a big coincidence, but feels like cap circumvention to me.

 

[Chips]

To the bolded - what are you missing exactly?

All season long fans have speculated that Kucherov wasn't as injured as they were saying, and they only used LITR as a reason to save on cap. I'm not saying it's true - but I'm just making a parallel - how it's insane that even if they did do that purposefully, that they're good enough to pull it off and still contend for president's trophy.

If Edmonton tried to keep McDavid or Drai off their roster during season to save on cap and have them come fresh for playoffs - they'd be a bottom feeder who misses playoffs.

I answered that the next sentence.

the main part, as you’ve just answered, is whether your were entirely saying that based on the assumption there’s for sure something faked, for which there has been zero evidence provided. They way you worded it seemed sure, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt because it was hypothetical. “This” instead of “that”

I don’t care if the oilers would have faked an injury, they wouldn’t because that would be stupid.

but as I explained, based on the more reasonable assumption, until shown otherwise, that Kucherov had a surgery for an injury we already knew about, and missed a normal time frame in what just happens to be a shortened season; if the oilers or Leafs lost a good, expensive player while sitting tight under the cap, would they move him to LTIR to make space to either add depth before the deadline, or at least make room to stop juggling players around waivers? Of course. That’s why the rule is there. Nothing about this seems “fishy” without a healthy dose of paranoia


They announced day 1 Kucherovs normal time frame. Presumable the NHL has and will again evaluate, which should seem pretty obvious in a highly competitive multi billion dollar business. Until we actually see some indication it was faked, the league is punishing them, these new threads popping up every other week are pointless.

 

[Sky04]

Uh, yes.

Bruins fan right? Not very smart then considering Pastrnak had hip surgery as well and was out 4.5months. Why didn't Pastrnak start the season? Did he feel like taking a month long vacation while the league resumed play?

4.5 months from Kucherovs surgery date is mid-May.

 

[Chips]

No proof, but there’s a lot of smoke here. Feels like they are going to this well a bit often. Maybe it’s all a big coincidence, but feels like cap circumvention to me.

No, it’s just paranoia. A quick google search verified what I already knew, that regularly injured stamkos got injured before the playoffs, and *Kucherov is still nowhere near returning.


Players always ease back into game condition. Start skating by yourself, hold off working out the recovering part of your body. Then start light skates with your teammates, start working out that area again. Then approach normal workouts and join more into practice. Then full contact practice for a while, refresh yourself on the game, conditioning etc then join.

he’s well on pace, but it’s a normal pace. Cooper just said he’s “nowhere near full contact yet”


It’s normal cap/roster/injury management. They’ve just gotten “lucky” on the timing, ignoring neither player will probably be 100% when they’re back, and could certainly lose home ice

 

[Chips]

The issue is that, because of TBL's suspicious gaming of the cap, when they did lose one of their stars, they had a spare ready to step in. Most teams, when they lose a star to injury, have to make do with a 2nd liner moving up. I know when Panarin was out due to the political situation, it sure would have been nice if we could have just added a Kucherov. When Shesterkin was injured and we had to roll with Kinkaid and Georgiev (when the latter seemingly forgot how to play the game for that span), it would have been nice to have Lundqvist to go out there and calm the ship. But no, we had to buy Lundqvist out and carry a cap charge, because the Rangers (and seemingly every team but Tampa) are actually held accountable for the salary cap.

So, you’re complimenting the Bolts GM on drafting, trading and signing good deals to build a deep roster? It’s true most teams in this situation would have to move a guy up. Good on the Bolts

Theyre using the rule exactly as intended, until shown otherwise which I doubt will happen.

 

[HotPie]

Seems like there's a lot of conspiracy theorists on this board.

With some of the takes I've read over the years, can't say I'm surprised.

 

[drktmplr12]

Bruins fan right? Not very smart then considering Patranak had hip surgery as well and was out 4.5months. Why didn't Pastranak start the season? Did he feel like taking a month long vacation while the league resumed play?

4.5 months from Kucherovs surgery date is mid-May.

i honestly misunderstood the type of surgery he (and other players) have had. trusting your hip to not give out under stress is probably a huge part of it.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The issue is that, because of TBL's suspicious gaming of the cap, when they did lose one of their stars, they had a spare ready to step in. Most teams, when they lose a star to injury, have to make do with a 2nd liner moving up. I know when Panarin was out due to the political situation, it sure would have been nice if we could have just added a Kucherov.

Draft better. Don't blow $13 million in cap space on buyouts. Don't sign a known problem child to a contract that forces you to eat $3,725,000 when you send him home because he's a raving asshole (yet again). Seems pretty simple.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Draft better. Don't blow $13 million in cap space on buyouts. Don't sign a known problem child to a contract that forces you to eat $3,725,000 when you send him home because he's a raving asshole (yet again). Seems pretty simple.

Its extremely difficult for many around here, and its obviously a conspiracy.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The problem isn't with their current players... Knowing you are losing your top star for the season and knowing he'll be on LTIR and buying expiring LTIR contracts leading up to it knowing that is a whole level of taking advantage of a loophole....

They essentially did a cash deal for a couple outcasts and a 2nd to gain over 10. in cap space.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Some real smooth brains trying to defend this cap circumventing

Seems like there's a lot of conspiracy theorists on this board.

With some of the takes I've read over the years, can't say I'm surprised.

It’s funny that when facts are involved you can just label them conspiracy theories

 

[HotPie]

Some real smooth brains trying to defend this cap circumventing

Yes, Kucherov's injury was orchestrated by a shadowy cabal of Tampa Bay hockey operatives, all so they could find a way to legally circumvent the cap for the regular season and play Kucherov in the playoffs.

 

[Chips]

Some real smooth brains trying to defend this cap circumventing






It’s funny that when facts are involved you can just label them conspiracy theories

What facts? It’s been explained to death how they’re using the rule as intended, zero evidence has been provided of anyone faking anything

we knew he was injured, we knew he was putting off surgery, we knew this COVID season wasn’t a lock to even reach the playoffs for anyone, there was no reason to not get the surgery now. That cap space wasn’t going to be used with him not playing all season, and you’re allowed to use your cap space. Simple.

 

[ClydeLee]

we knew this COVID season wasn’t a lock to even reach the playoffs for anyone

That middle part is quite the leap in logic.

 

[Bonham]

It is not convenient to have one of the league's best players miss the entire season.

It was also mentioned he would be gone until playoffs and now the end of the season is a few weeks away and he is skating... an obvious transition an injured player makes to getting back on the ice.

Also, if Kucherov is fit to play then the Lightning are obligated to activate him.

Lightning just following the rules.

 

[Dirty Dan]

Yes, Kucherov's injury was orchestrated by a shadowy cabal of Tampa Bay hockey operatives, all so they could find a way to legally circumvent the cap for the regular season and play Kucherov in the playoffs.

thats exactly what it is, what dont u understand

worked out well for them. if tampa is fighting for a playoff spot with some cap space, hes probably back a bit sooner than postseason

 

[Chips]

That middle part is quite the leap in logic.

I guess you don’t read much general NHL news? Much was made of how successful the bubble was, but how much uncertainty there was about no bubble, travel, would teams be allowed to play in some cities or would public events be banned, etc


If one or two more teams has the luck the canucks have, with so many games canceled, then crammed; What if there’s multi breakouts last second etc how much time between reg season and playoffs is NHL alotting for reschedule, how many is too many etc. all those kinda of questions were asked.
People are getting onto the NHL now feeling the Canucks schedule is almost cruel


If something like that happened to the bolts or a legit contender that could completely screw them.


The other thing I meant to add was the fact that the bolts played longer than anyone, and Kuch already powered through that injury, so consider the already shorter off season combined with the fact that this seasons schedule is already crammed, even if you don’t have the Canucks situation.

Playing on an injury sucks; and can make it worse in any season. Pretty much what’s happened with Seguin, he apparently had played on it for years (over which time we knows he’s looked a shell of his former self; maybe maybe not related) and his coach said he “destroyed” it. He’s out even longer from basically the same thing.


Do you get the surgery this season or next, salary aside?

 

[bleedgreen]

Everyone complaining would be fine with it if it was their team.

 

[Chips]

thats exactly what it is, what dont u understand

worked out well for them. if tampa is fighting for a playoff spot with some cap space, hes probably back a bit sooner than postseason

If anything he’ll be rushed if he’s back round one. He’s likely not going to be 100%

but yea teams have a habit of forcing guys back sooner

 

[3ladesof5teel]

IMO practice is much different then game ready. I would feel much more comfortable with a player coming in that had a few weeks under his legs of real games then someone just coming in fresh. League star or not.

It works both ways, and we all know playoff hockey is a different animal. Call it suspicious or whatever . Kuch could come in not game ready and easily get an injury.

 

[Chips]

IMO practice is much different then game ready. I would feel much more comfortable with a player coming in that had a few weeks under his legs of real games then someone just coming in fresh. League star or not.

It works both way, and we all know playoff hockey is a different animal. Call it suspicious or whatever but it works both ways. Kuch could come in not game ready and easily get an injury.

This, OP should officially say something along the lines of “(skating w team/ non contact)” I think a ton of people are entering here commenting without having actually read any Bolts beat write up, like coaches comments, context etc