summer trades and signings chat

[MBH]

Paajarvi’s dad says he received an “invitation” from the Wings. PTO?

Yzerman has to be planning to trade a LH winger.

 

[MBH]

Besting expectations? That's a completely irrelevant argument. AA's expectations with his skill and ability should be higher than they are. He SHOULD, based on what he's physically able to do, be a uniquely special player. Physically with his speed and size? He should be way up there league-wise. He's faster, stronger, and has better hands than most players. Yet, he's at best a 2nd line winger with 2nd line winger production. When he's on and engaged, he can be unstoppable. But he's not that way most of the time.

And AA is doing it kind of by himself as with the way he's played whoever is on the ice with him is pretty much invisible. He doesn't really use them much at all. If he did, he'd be one hell of a lot better at the cycle in the offensive zone. His points come from transition and from individual sticklift steals. So giving him better playmakers and better finishers will likely not materially affect his P or A/60.

Mantha had big parts of last year he missed with injury. And he's the type that will take a little bit to get back into the swing of things after being gone. And Mantha's new gear would come from continuing to develop chemistry with Larkin and Bertuzzi.

AA is a good player. But until he can shift his game from being solely transition driven, that's all he'll be. There are fundamental underlying things that make AA a risk to sign long term and a risk to hitch your wagon to as a key piece.

Total myth.
Better playmakers will absolutely improve his G/60, better goal scorers will improve his A/60, and both would improve his P/60.

Just look at his wowy production with Mantha/Larkin.

 

[Hen Kolland]

One guy was a 6'5 50 goal scorer in his draft year. One guy wasn't.
Since they've turned pro, I don't think Mantha's done anything to show he's better.




This is one of the worst assessments I've read.
AA isn't an elite passer/playmaker, but he's not bad either.
And the idea that he doesn't use linemates, or he's selfish, is total BS.
I've seen AA pass his way out of more scoring chances than puckhug his way out.
Truth is, he's more likely to pass when he shouldn't than puckhog when he shouldn't.
But those are just eyeball-based opinions.

Here are some facts.
Athanasiou's assist/60 rates over three years.
Mantha 1.29 and ,92
With Larkin. 1.19 including .85 primary
Nielsen .91 and .55
Vanek .9 and .45
Glendening .92 and ,79
Bertuzzi .84 and .67
Helm ,74 and .59
Abdelkader .5 and .17 (yikes)
Tatar 1.01 and .4
Nyquist .73 and ,73

Lo and behold, AA's best 3 assists/60 come with the best scorers.





How much do you bet?
AA's goals/60 with Larkin is .94 and assists/60 is 1.19.
Points/60 is 2.13
So his goals/60 dips from 1.12 to a still very good .94.
His assists/60 increases from .8 to 1.19.
And his points ration increases from 1.91 to 2.13.




Yeah, I don't think so.
Just my of opinion of the style of game he plays.
AA has enjoyed lots of success.

And Larkin and Mantha have both enjoyed success along side AA.
Larkin's production dips slightly (owing most likely to most of those minutes happening beofre last year)
Mantha's rises substantially.



Your argument is that Mantha is the only thing holding Mantha back?

But AA is the enigma?
Come on.

Yes, Athanasiou is the enigma. Watch this video. Do you not see how many of his goals come from a disproportionate amount of odd man rushes, breakaways, or rushes with a crash to the net? That's not the kind of game that translates on the top lines, and that's what makes him an enigma. It's like over half of his goals come on some ridiculous individual effort or being set up by the shot or pass of a teammate at the front of the net. He produces his goals largely on his own effort, which is great to have in the back pocket down the lineup, but I don't want my top line relying solely on one person trying to do it all himself. If he is going to be around, I'd prefer to live with him in favorable matchups that minimize his likelihood of blowing coverage defensively and maximize his likelihood of being able to do what he does best.

 

[MBH]

Scoring breakaway goals does not make you an enigma.
What the hell.

I guess guys like Connor McDavid or Marian Gaborik weren't top line guys, because of all those breakaways.

 

[newfy]

I cant believe people actuially want to argue that Athanasiou isnt a one dimensional player. Hes really good at that one dimension which makes him valuable but he doesnt play the type of game thats suited to playing with other players who like to have the puck.

Athanasious perfect role in the NHL would be on the third line of a cup contender. Let him go out there and create his own offense and draw penalties while not hurting other skilled players because of his lack of vision. He would be a legit scoring threat especially when exposing other teams lower lines with his speed and could play up the line up in a pinch. Hes a guy who will score 25-35 goals a year because of his speed and hands. If he plays with crappier players the total might be a bit lower, if he plays with better players it might be a bit higher end but I think with the more skilled players his increase in production wouldnt be worth the drag on what the others on the line get to do with the puck

 

[Hen Kolland]

Scoring breakaway goals does not make you an enigma.
What the hell.

I guess guys like Connor McDavid or Marian Gaborik weren't top line guys, because of all those breakaways.

When Athanasiou has a season where he can manage to score more than half as many points as McDavid, let me know. Until then, crawl back into your hole.

 

[MBH]

I cant believe people actuially want to argue that Athanasiou isnt a one dimensional player. Hes really good at that one dimension which makes him valuable but he doesnt play the type of game thats suited to playing with other players who like to have the puck.

That's not supported by any facts data.
You put him with goal scorers or playmakers, and he can play with them.
When Vanek was here the first time, he worked well with Vanek.
When he's played with Mantha, he's worked well with Mantha.
But you play him with Glendening or Helm, what do you think you're going to get?

Athanasious perfect role in the NHL would be on the third line of a cup contender. Let him go out there and create his own offense and draw penalties while not hurting other skilled players because of his lack of vision. He would be a legit scoring threat especially when exposing other teams lower lines with his speed and could play up the line up in a pinch. Hes a guy who will score 25-35 goals a year because of his speed and hands. If he plays with crappier players the total might be a bit lower, if he plays with better players it might be a bit higher end but I think with the more skilled players his increase in production wouldnt be worth the drag on what the others on the line get to do with the puck

Man, this just off-the-rails bad hockey analysis.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That's not supported by any facts data.
You put him with goal scorers or playmakers, and he can play with them.
When Vanek was here the first time, he worked well with Vanek.
When he's played with Mantha, he's worked well with Mantha.
But you play him with Glendening or Helm, what do you think you're going to get?




Man, this just off-the-rails bad hockey analysis.

For the first thing? According to you, 30 goals and 24 assists.

Second, I don't see anything wrong with that analysis. Andreas Athanasiou's optimal role WOULD be as a third line wing where he'd give you 30 goals in 15 minutes a night.

Andreas Athanasiou's skills are all based on his individual play at the current stage of his career. For the sake of a balanced lineup, he shouldn't be on a top line. He's a fabulously skilled player but he is demonstrably bad at retaining offensive zone possession when it isn't a transition play and in the situations where he does retain possession there, it's because he's doing some voodoo **** with the puck. The things he does best aren't dependent on having better linemates to happen. AA's statline will look better if he was playing top line with Larkin. I guess that's indisputable. However, it would be much worse for the team. You can either have a 30 goal winger on a 2nd or 3rd line with him or maybe get a 35-40 goal winger on the first line. And at that point, you're pushing Bertuzzi or Mantha down a line and hurting their play. AA's worth is that he can make chicken salad out of chicken **** on a lower line.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I am interested if Zadina or Veleno can carry AA to a new height in his game. His consistency was better perhaps he is building to something better. He just hasn't gotten a raw deal in my opinion that is an extremely old narrative.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Yzerman has to be planning to trade a LH winger.

I wouldn't get excited. Probably just a vet to give them insurance to meet the rules for pre-season.

 

[MBH]

For the first thing? According to you, 30 goals and 24 assists.

Second, I don't see anything wrong with that analysis. Andreas Athanasiou's optimal role WOULD be as a third line wing where he'd give you 30 goals in 15 minutes a night.

Andreas Athanasiou's skills are all based on his individual play at the current stage of his career. For the sake of a balanced lineup, he shouldn't be on a top line. He's a fabulously skilled player but he is demonstrably bad at retaining offensive zone possession when it isn't a transition play and in the situations where he does retain possession there, it's because he's doing some voodoo **** with the puck. The things he does best aren't dependent on having better linemates to happen. AA's statline will look better if he was playing top line with Larkin. I guess that's indisputable. However, it would be much worse for the team. You can either have a 30 goal winger on a 2nd or 3rd line with him or maybe get a 35-40 goal winger on the first line. And at that point, you're pushing Bertuzzi or Mantha down a line and hurting their play. AA's worth is that he can make chicken salad out of chicken **** on a lower line.

How many third liners in the NHL score 30 goals??

AA does indeed make chicken salad out of chick shit on a lower line. Another reason he's so f***ing valuable. Not many players could do that. Not Mantha. Not Bertuzzi.

But this isn't the ideal we should be striving for.
We need good players to play with him.

If, for example, Svechnikov could play RW on a line with Flip and AA, that would be great.

If Zadina were to come up and play with Larkin, then maybe Mantha could play on a line with AA and Flip or Nielsen or whatever.

 

[MBH]

I am interested if Zadina or Veleno can carry AA to a new height in his game. His consistency was better perhaps he is building to something better. He just hasn't gotten a raw deal in my opinion that is an extremely old narrative.

Neither of these guys are even NHLers yet. I don't see them carrying AA or anyone anywhere for a couple years, at least.
Both guys have promise. But they're clearly not going to drive this team for 2-3 years.

 

[deca guard]

 

[Hen Kolland]

How many third liners in the NHL score 30 goals??

AA does indeed make chicken salad out of chick **** on a lower line. Another reason he's so ****ing valuable. Not many players could do that. Not Mantha. Not Bertuzzi.

But this isn't the ideal we should be striving for.
We need good players to play with him.

If, for example, Svechnikov could play RW on a line with Flip and AA, that would be great.

If Zadina were to come up and play with Larkin, then maybe Mantha could play on a line with AA and Flip or Nielsen or whatever.

This is something I think we all agree with. It would be best for the team to have stronger depth to play with Athanasiou. I don’t mind having a second line that is nearly pure offense because we will always have a grinding 4th line and a top line with Larkin will be able to line up against the top lines of opponents. Even if we have to drop Nielsen in the center of Athanasiou and Zadina or Svechnikov, the talent on the wing should help extract the best out of Nielsen.

 

[newfy]

That's not supported by any facts data.
You put him with goal scorers or playmakers, and he can play with them.
When Vanek was here the first time, he worked well with Vanek.
When he's played with Mantha, he's worked well with Mantha.
But you play him with Glendening or Helm, what do you think you're going to get?




Man, this just off-the-rails bad hockey analysis.

I think playing him with Vanek, playing him with Mantha or playing him with Helm youre not going to get the crazy different results you seem to think he would get. In 2017-2018 he mostly played with Larkin and a combo of Mantha or Tatar. He racked himself up 17 assists. This year with mostly Neilsen (and a little Glendening as his center) he racked up 30 goals and 24 assists. You get what you get with AA because he does so much of it individually. Hes really good at it too. I'm not sure why its hard for yu to admit that. Whatever, you picked your hill to die on so I guess theres no changing your mind.

How many third liners in the NHL score 30 goals??

AA does indeed make chicken salad out of chick **** on a lower line. Another reason he's so ****ing valuable. Not many players could do that. Not Mantha. Not Bertuzzi.

But this isn't the ideal we should be striving for.
We need good players to play with him.

If, for example, Svechnikov could play RW on a line with Flip and AA, that would be great.

If Zadina were to come up and play with Larkin, then maybe Mantha could play on a line with AA and Flip or Nielsen or whatever.

Not a tonne of third liners in the NHL score 30 goals, how many have the unique skill set AA has though? I've used his comparables as Evander Kane and Kessel. Both guys who score in that range from lower lines because theyre good at creating their own offense no matter who they play with because of their speed and a good shot. AA is in the mold of these guys. Doesnt use his teammates well but on a contender could be a guy that absolutely roasts lower lines which would be very valuable. But now cry some more about how he should be a first line player while hes busy skating with the puck on his stick the entire time hes on the ice and not using teammates some more please. We all love hearing that dead horse get beat agin and again

 

[MBH]

I think playing him with Vanek, playing him with Mantha or playing him with Helm youre not going to get the crazy different results you seem to think he would get. In 2017-2018 he mostly played with Larkin and a combo of Mantha or Tatar. He racked himself up 17 assists. This year with mostly Neilsen (and a little Glendening as his center) he racked up 30 goals and 24 assists. You get what you get with AA because he does so much of it individually. Hes really good at it too. I'm not sure why its hard for yu to admit that. Whatever, you picked your hill to die on so I guess theres no changing your mind.

First of all, he just went from 18 to 30 goals. So the crazy different results have already taken place.
I think he can go from 35 to 40 (at the very highest) with more icetime and with Larkin as his C.
I don't really care if he plays with Larkin as his C. But I bring this up because Mantha hasn't been able to crack 30 despite playing the last two years with Detroit's best passers.

Secondly,
When AA played with Larkin and Tatar in 17-18 he produced.
Larkin. 413 minutes. 2.61/60
Tatar. 239 minutes. 3.01/60
Mantha. 132 minutes. 2.71/60
Bertuzzi. 155 minutes. 1.92/60

The other obvious issue is that AA doesn't seem to get regular time with anyone.
Last year, his most common linemate was GLendening - 324 minutes.

Not a tonne of third liners in the NHL score 30 goals, how many have the unique skill set AA has though? I've used his comparables as Evander Kane and Kessel. Both guys who score in that range from lower lines because theyre good at creating their own offense no matter who they play with because of their speed and a good shot. AA is in the mold of these guys. Doesnt use his teammates well but on a contender could be a guy that absolutely roasts lower lines which would be very valuable. But now cry some more about how he should be a first line player while hes busy skating with the puck on his stick the entire time hes on the ice and not using teammates some more please. We all love hearing that dead horse get beat agin and again

Your "AA can't use his linemates" is the deadest horse on this board.
AA was tied for 3rd on the team in primary assists with 10. More than Mantha and Bertuzzi (8). Only Nyquist (12) and Larkin (17) had more.

 

[TatarTangle]

Man, imagine if Mrazek was still on the team and AA got 40 minutes of IT! Grrrrr, gosh darn that Ken Holland and Blashill!!

 

[Mlotek]

Man, imagine if Mrazek was still on the team and AA got 40 minutes of IT! Grrrrr, gosh darn that Ken Holland and Blashill!!

Meh, say what you want but AA with 17-18 min a night a good thing.

Mrazek is way too volatile. He's also got a few glarring weaknesses.

For example, Mrazek is super aggressive and can be outplayed if you wait him out. Bringing it back to his volatility, when he is aggressive that is typically when he is playing best. He typically plays considerably worse when being more passive. Which Mrazek depends on the game (or sometimes period).

The biggest weakness is poor way of handling being screened (especially when Ericsson was doing it for the opposition). The Wings D gave him lots of practice in terms of being screened and tipping pucks at him. Even with Carolina it was a clear weakness during playoffs.

 

[Oddbob]

Yzerman has to be planning to trade a LH winger.

Nah, it is typical training camp PTO with 65+% chance of no contract. Warm body to fill in exhibition games when regulars are out, and also gives you a veteran trying to make a team, which is good for the kids. Every team does these every year.

 

[deca guard]

going by this article theres alot of teams with goalie questions , a condition that might add up to howard being targeted by teams with playoff hopes for his veteran stability .:
NHL Crease Watch: 10 teams with goaltending questions in 2019-20 - TheHockeyNews

 

[raymond23]

Man, this just off-the-rails bad hockey analysis.

It’s actually spot on

 

[MBH]

I wouldn't get excited. Probably just a vet to give them insurance to meet the rules for pre-season.

Hope you're right.
Before we added Erne, we had, i thought, 2 spots in the top 9 for LH wingers.
I figured Zadina, Rasmussen, Hirose and Svech were the main players for those jobs.
I think there's plenty of job competition.

 

[MBH]

I've used his comparables as Evander Kane and Kessel.

Evander Kane hasn't played less than 18:25 a night since he was 20 years old.
Last year he was below 19 minutes for the first time in six years.
He was #1 in 5 on 5 ice time on the Sharks forwards troop last year.

Phil Kessell played 17:59 last year. He's averaged around 19 minutes for this decade.
Kessell was 4th among Penguins forwards in TOI/game.
His most common linemate was Evgeny Malkin.

These are not 3rd liners.

 

[MBH]

going by this article theres alot of teams with goalie questions , a condition that might add up to howard being targeted by teams with playoff hopes for his veteran stability .:
NHL Crease Watch: 10 teams with goaltending questions in 2019-20 - TheHockeyNews

There was zero interest in Howard last year, right?
My guess, based on the last six years, is that Howard starts anywhere from good to great, and is playing at broken toilet bowl levels by February, scaring anyone away from a trade deal.

 

[newfy]

Evander Kane hasn't played less than 18:25 a night since he was 20 years old.
Last year he was below 19 minutes for the first time in six years.
He was #1 in 5 on 5 ice time on the Sharks forwards troop last year.

Phil Kessell played 17:59 last year. He's averaged around 19 minutes for this decade.
Kessell was 4th among Penguins forwards in TOI/game.
His most common linemate was Evgeny Malkin.

These are not 3rd liners.

Phill Kessel played on the Penguins third line when they won the cup. Yes, hes a guy that they would move up and down the lineup and he would get a lot of PP time so his icetime was higher than a typical third liner that you want to think I'm comparing him too. But he was a weapon for them on the third line because he was a matchup nightmare and can use his speed/shot in transition to create offense out of nothing. Athanasious perfect role would be doing something like this. This isnt your standard third line role but its being used as a third line matchup nightmare. Athanasiou would still produce and not kill offense for other good players while he did it. He would keep the puck off the stick of less skilled players while he does it too.