Stockton Heat relocation

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Where was I? I was 11 years old. Too young to be on HFBoards, old enough to have better grammar skills than you, and still more emotionally mature than you are now or ever will be.

Acknowledge that you made incorrect statements. Being around longer than anyone else doesn't make you more qualified, especially considering how many false claims you make. You made a boo boo. Own up to it.

nope, because I was there.....actively.....you need to apologize to the entire state for your post insulting the fanbase up here,BD..... Boston wasn't trusted up here and didn't care much the same way the Blues didn't save the Ice Cats, and in fact since, they've continued the last 30 years of not acknowledging they know how to run an affiliate correctly.... never mind stealing all promotional aspects that were started here and the gall to ask for the banners like they owned them.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

nope, because I was there.....actively.....you need to apologize to the entire state for your post insulting the fanbase up here,BD..... Boston wasn't trusted up here and didn't care much the same way the Blues didn't save the Ice Cats, and in fact since, they've continued the last 30 years of not acknowledging they know how to run an affiliate correctly.... never mind stealing all promotional aspects that were started here and the gall to ask for the banners like they owned them.

You should really stop you obviously have no idea what your talking about and you are derailing a thread that is about a ahl team in California.

 

[Major4Boarding]

OK guys. I'm leaving a majority of the posts here intact (minus a few mandatory edits) but lets put an end to this pissing match of other markets and get this back on topic regarding Stockton. I don't mind other market talk, as there's tie ins for sure, but these things have a habit of completely taking over the conversation to where we're all off-base from the main topic.

Not to mention, I've had to clean up another litter box because it spilled over onto another board.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

nope, because I was there.....actively.....you need to apologize to the entire state for your post insulting the fanbase up here,BD..... Boston wasn't trusted up here and didn't care much the same way the Blues didn't save the Ice Cats, and in fact since, they've continued the last 30 years of not acknowledging they know how to run an affiliate correctly.... never mind stealing all promotional aspects that were started here and the gall to ask for the banners like they owned them.

Final attempt here.

You said Edmonton was threatened by the league to have their membership revoked. No matter what you're referring to, you're incorrect. The Edmonton Road Runners only existed because of the lockout, and once the NHL returned they lost their place and the Oilers decided to split AHL affiliation. Any other Edmonton affiliate never had their membership threatened.

You then said that the league can threaten Stockton's membership like the Iowa Chops when the league cannot and you're incorrect. The league suspended the Chops since the owners put the team up as collateral on a loan, which breaks league bylaws. The Heat have never broken league bylaws.

Don't come at me again with "I'm older and therefore I know more." Acknowledge these two things above.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Final attempt here.

You said Edmonton was threatened by the league to have their membership revoked. No matter what you're referring to, you're incorrect. The Edmonton Road Runners only existed because of the lockout, and once the NHL returned they lost their place and the Oilers decided to split AHL affiliation. Any other Edmonton affiliate never had their membership threatened.

You then said that the league can threaten Stockton's membership like the Iowa Chops when the league cannot and you're incorrect. The league suspended the Chops since the owners put the team up as collateral on a loan, which breaks league bylaws. The Heat have never broken league bylaws.

Don't come at me again with "I'm older and therefore I know more." Acknowledge these two things above.

nope, the reason the Road Runners left Toronto is there was no lease at what is now Coca Cola Coliseum, BD, AT that time the Oilers relocated to Edmonton was August of 2004, it had nothing to do with the lockout in the NHL. This is why the Marlies are now there... Edmonton also got that attention because they didn't do it within proper timeframe of the off-season.... they did it after the AHL Season had been revealed in 2004. THE AHL threatened the Oilers with revocation because they had the franchise inactive for 7 years after the above scenario, they were told to activate the franchise or risk losing it had they not activated it or picked a market, which they did in OKC..... THE 5 WAY affiliation is what forced the League's hand and ultimately setback the Oilers prospect development. You have to keep in mind with the Chops that Howard Baldwin had a little to do with that scenario and then the whole sidebar over the Wolf*Pack and the Whale "Marketing PDC".

You are correct, but Portland was Anaheim's affiliate at the time that Iowa was terminated, something the League had never seen occur, no one then knew that Buffalo and Rochester were in serious difficulty over the health of the Americans.

WHERE do you get that Calgary broke league bylaws..... their issues are that private ownership wasn't sustainable or the agreement that Abbotsford had was by mutual decision. now whether Omaha or Quad City got a fair shot at retaining the Flames there you may have an issue with why it lasted 2 years in those markets, but no one can really answer why that happened... especially in QC, when there was a largely successful franchise just cast aside... which is why the Flames have gone down the road not to the degree OR the extreme that the Oilers did....

what the AHL wants, they usually get,and the two main things that they've stressed over the years, if not more is, they will not intercede in a franchise dispute between a tenant or member club, over a lease even if the affiliated club owns or operates or both the parent and the affiliate, unless said member club seeks the assistance of the league.... hence why Portland's territory was expanded in 2014-15, or the issues between the County, or management company that operates the arena, such as the discussion over Pittsburgh with them owning/operating WBS on an extension in good faith terms..... much the same way SJ had started initial discussions over retaining the now Barracuda in Worcester..... it just depends on how much local control the franchise has and who has control over player/coaching/executive decisions, much like you're seeing with Vegas asking for those rights three years ago to want complete control over the affiliate, and Chicago, as most affiliates are in this era, have operated independently or have made that a priority.

remember Anaheim had never been an owner/operator until 2014/2015, AND had it not been for the Oilers, putting their AHL Affiliate in Bakersfield, why was the decision made to force the then Norfolk owner to either sell, or in essence be stripped of that franchise....in return for the Condors franchise.

that continued in 2015/16 when Arizona, followed that model by buying Springfield.... most everybody thought that was the end of the relocation chatter, but here we are with Vegas looking to eliminate another private ownership group....and the fallout from that is to be determined, and you wonder why the hockey fanbase is up in arms, because where will it stop, will there eventually be no private ownership, and just the local owners essentially be operators of their franchises, nevermind the financial aspects of sustaining yearly losses as expansion now is even more of a financial hit to start a franchise at the lower levels of pro hockey, sustain it, either long or short-term .

Even expansion now is out of the question in the 2 main minor leagues with the way Worcester and Newfoundland couldn't complete it in a years time... eventually yes, but is that sustainable for a non corporation to absorb those is where it seems to be heading, not to mention McDonald's frustration with St. John's..... and he wants that same headache of establishing another team....

hope that answers your question

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

nope, the reason the Road Runners left Toronto is there was no lease at what is now Coca Cola Coliseum, BD, AT that time the Oilers relocated to Edmonton was August of 2004, it had nothing to do with the lockout in the NHL. This is why the Marlies are now there... Edmonton also got that attention because they didn't do it within proper timeframe of the off-season.... they did it after the AHL Season had been revealed in 2004. THE AHL threatened the Oilers with revocation because they had the franchise inactive for 7 years after the above scenario, they were told to activate the franchise or risk losing it had they not activated it or picked a market, which they did in OKC..... THE 5 WAY affiliation is what forced the League's hand and ultimately setback the Oilers prospect development. You have to keep in mind with the Chops that Howard Baldwin had a little to do with that scenario and then the whole sidebar over the Wolf*Pack and the Whale "Marketing PDC".

You are correct, but Portland was Anaheim's affiliate at the time that Iowa was terminated, something the League had never seen occur, no one then knew that Buffalo and Rochester were in serious difficulty over the health of the Americans.

WHERE do you get that Calgary broke league bylaws..... their issues are that private ownership wasn't sustainable or the agreement that Abbotsford had was by mutual decision. now whether Omaha or Quad City got a fair shot at retaining the Flames there you may have an issue with why it lasted 2 years in those markets, but no one can really answer why that happened... especially in QC, when there was a largely successful franchise just cast aside... which is why the Flames have gone down the road not to the degree OR the extreme that the Oilers did....

what the AHL wants, they usually get,and the two main things that they've stressed over the years, if not more is, they will not intercede in a franchise dispute between a tenant or member club, over a lease even if the affiliated club owns or operates or both the parent and the affiliate, unless said member club seeks the assistance of the league.... hence why Portland's territory was expanded in 2014-15, or the issues between the County, or management company that operates the arena, such as the discussion over Pittsburgh with them owning/operating WBS on an extension in good faith terms..... much the same way SJ had started initial discussions over retaining the now Barracuda in Worcester..... it just depends on how much local control the franchise has and who has control over player/coaching/executive decisions, much like you're seeing with Vegas asking for those rights three years ago to want complete control over the affiliate, and Chicago, as most affiliates are in this era, have operated independently or have made that a priority.

remember Anaheim had never been an owner/operator until 2014/2015, AND had it not been for the Oilers, putting their AHL Affiliate in Bakersfield, why was the decision made to force the then Norfolk owner to either sell, or in essence be stripped of that franchise....in return for the Condors franchise.

that continued in 2015/16 when Arizona, followed that model by buying Springfield.... most everybody thought that was the end of the relocation chatter, but here we are with Vegas looking to eliminate another private ownership group....and the fallout from that is to be determined, and you wonder why the hockey fanbase is up in arms, because where will it stop, will there eventually be no private ownership, and just the local owners essentially be operators of their franchises, nevermind the financial aspects of sustaining yearly losses as expansion now is even more of a financial hit to start a franchise at the lower levels of pro hockey, sustain it, either long or short-term .

Even expansion now is out of the question in the 2 main minor leagues with the way Worcester and Newfoundland couldn't complete it in a years time... eventually yes, but is that sustainable for a non corporation to absorb those is where it seems to be heading, not to mention McDonald's frustration with St. John's..... and he wants that same headache of establishing another team....

hope that answers your question

For the Road Runners used predominantly as filling the void left by the NHL lockout, source: Chasing the Dream. The Road Runners also were in Edmonton for only one season, so that logically points to them being used to fill the lockout void, considering the team only ever was in Edmonton during the lockout. The Oilers also retained the rights for the AHL team despite asking the league to suspend the team (source: Hockey Night in Dixie), which shows that you're wrong that the AHL threatened the Oilers with revocation. Especially when the franchise was used 5 years later (inactive in Edmonton in 2005, reactivated in Oklahoma City in 2010) and not the 7 years you claimed.

A whole lot of random franchise history quoting that has nothing to do with anything, etc. etc.

Calgary would have to break the league bylaws to get their franchise revoked. That's the only way to get a franchise revoked. You said that the league could revoke their franchise like it did the Chops. The Chops broke league bylaws by putting the team up for collateral on a loan (source: Ex-Ducks Affiliate Franchise Suspended From Operation). Calgary has done nothing in Stockton to allow the league to revoke/suspend the franchise like it did in Iowa.

And then you continue with quoting random franchise history that has nothing to do with anything, etc. etc.

As for the AHL getting what they want, you clearly suffered a concussion and missed them fighting and then allowing 9 team relocations and 4 affiliation changes in the span of 3 years. They do what the NHL wants. Provide evidence against this in the form of a news article or reliable citation or else your claims will be rendered ab abserdo.

 

[Timjohnson]

I attended the Heat game over the weekend and a season seat holder told me that the rumor is the team will be moving to Colorado Springs and playing in Broadmoor World Arena. Any one else hear this talk or is it nonsense?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I attended the Heat game over the weekend and a season seat holder told me that the rumor is the team will be moving to Colorado Springs and playing in Broadmoor World Arena. Any one else hear this talk or is it nonsense?

why would they move it to Colorado Springs, unless Colorado is buying the franchise for affiliation purposes and it wouldn't be relocated until 2022..... then what happens if Calgary signs a longer term lease in Stockton....the practice facility is from what I'm understanding from sources there was never designed to be a practice facility going into its 5th decade of operation

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I attended the Heat game over the weekend and a season seat holder told me that the rumor is the team will be moving to Colorado Springs and playing in Broadmoor World Arena. Any one else hear this talk or is it nonsense?

Extremely unlikely. There are already two very well supported NCAA D1 college teams nearby Broadmoor with Colorado College and the Air Force Academy. There's been occasional rumors about minor league and junior teams going there, but it hasn't happened since the Colorado Gold Kings folded in 2002 after only four years in the area. The support would be tentative at best for any level of hockey, especially when that's prime time Avalanche territory and it would be a Flames affiliate.

 

[royals119]

I attended the Heat game over the weekend and a season seat holder told me that the rumor is the team will be moving to Colorado Springs and playing in Broadmoor World Arena. Any one else hear this talk or is it nonsense?

Sounds like nonsense, since Loveland is two hours from Colorado Springs, and Denver is in between. I know Calgary doesn't care much about the business aspect of their AHL team, but with an NHL team and their AHL affiliate that close, are there any hockey fans who would go see the a different AHL team instead? Maybe for the 8-10 road games the league would likely schedule there for the Eagles.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Sounds like nonsense, since Loveland is two hours from Colorado Springs, and Denver is in between. I know Calgary doesn't care much about the business aspect of their AHL team, but with an NHL team and their AHL affiliate that close, are there any hockey fans who would go see the a different AHL team instead? Maybe for the 8-10 road games the league would likely schedule there for the Eagles.

yeah, almost what the Cyclones vs. Ducks type scenario was when Anaheim had left Baltimore for Cincinnati, and then the novelty of Palm Springs being there by then.

 

[Timjohnson]

My guess is the potential to play in a better building, more ticket sales, more advertising, better lease, better environment for the players, better practice facility, closer to Calgary, and whatever else I am missing. Stockton Heat attendance is basically last in the league right now anyway so nowhere to go but up.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

My guess is the potential to play in a better building, more ticket sales, more advertising, better lease, better environment for the players, better practice facility, closer to Calgary, and whatever else I am missing. Stockton Heat attendance is basically last in the league right now anyway so nowhere to go but up.

I still don't think Colorado Springs offers a better climate than what Stockton offers.

Comparing the buildings, Stockton's arena is about 7 years newer and has 2,000 more in seating capacity. Stockton is already upgrading their building to go up to AHL standards and add the amenities that they are missing.

Comparing the ticket sales and advertising, the team won't do well in Colorado Springs. There are two established NCAA D1 teams nearby and the entire area is Avalanche territory. The team won't draw well. Thunder drew 6,000-7,000 for most of their ECHL days and even had mid-4,000 attendances during the early days of the Heat. Stockton with all the issues they're having is still a better option than Colorado Springs.

Comparing the leases, they could get a decent lease at Broadmoor since Colorado College is leaving to build an on-campus arena.

Comparing the environment, they'll get abuse no matter what because the Flames killing their AHL markets is already known. That's a wash.

Comparing the callups, they're marginally easier than Stockton. But if the Flames were all about easy callups, they'd put the team in Alberta or somewhere near the border like Billings. Instead, they've been near travel partners since the Abbotsford disaster. And the travel would have one close team in Loveland, and then either a long bus trip or a flight to everywhere else in the conference. Stockton has only 3-5 flights per year and the rest of it is on a medium-length bus trip, which is a whole lot cheaper than the costs associated with being based in Colorado Springs.

I don't think it's likely to happen.

 

[JMCx4]

@Barclay Donaldson ... You neglected to include one factor: The ignorance & unpredictability of the Flames when it comes to affiliate management & relocation. Does that nudge your spread even a teeny bit?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson ... You neglected to include one factor: The ignorance & unpredictability of the Flames when it comes to affiliate management & relocation. Does that nudge your spread even a teeny bit?

You are correct in that my spread doesn't predict rationality or reasonableness. And knowing the Flames, I probably should have accounted for it.

With how they've run their AHL franchise, I am considering sending them my CV to try and get a front office job! Perhaps even become an insider source for HF Boards.

 

[Artie Fufkin]

Isn’t Broadmoor’s ice Olympic sized? I can’t imagine why an NHL team would want their AHL affiliate to play on a non-standard rink.

 

[210]

Isn’t Broadmoor’s ice Olympic sized? I can’t imagine why an NHL team would want their AHL affiliate to play on a non-standard rink.

I believe it is...

 

[PCSPounder]

Isn’t Broadmoor’s ice Olympic sized? I can’t imagine why an NHL team would want their AHL affiliate to play on a non-standard rink.

Most definitely.

This is partly because the Olympic Training Center is in the area, Olympic ice is often the wider surface, et cetera.

 

[Henderson Finest]

According to sources at the most recent City Council meeting (2-4-20), the biggest concern for the City is the cost to operate the arena with the lack or attendance for both the Heat and Kings. Both sides (teams vs City) wants each other to pay the bulk for the required improvements. My source stated that the city is would make more money with no teams in there as opposed to opening for 2,000 to 3,000 fans for 34 hockey games and 20+(?) basketball games.
If the Heat staff got off their duffs and started to actually market this team (that is 2nd in the division and 3rd in the league in the standings) maybe more people would show up. I lay that on Petrovic. He is in control of that.

 

[PCSPounder]

According to sources at the most recent City Council meeting (2-4-20), the biggest concern for the City is the cost to operate the arena with the lack or attendance for both the Heat and Kings. Both sides (teams vs City) wants each other to pay the bulk for the required improvements. My source stated that the city is would make more money with no teams in there as opposed to opening for 2,000 to 3,000 fans for 34 hockey games and 20+(?) basketball games.
If the Heat staff got off their duffs and started to actually market this team (that is 2nd in the division and 3rd in the league in the standings) maybe more people would show up. I lay that on Petrovic. He is in control of that.

Considering all the emails I get for concerts and the like, plus the proximity of Stockton to Sacramento (to the north), the Bay Area (west), and towns like Modesto to the south, it has the capability to be busy without a sports tenant.

Perhaps I regret adding my email address to that place, but eh...

 

[5cotland]

I attended the Heat game over the weekend and a season seat holder told me that the rumor is the team will be moving to Colorado Springs and playing in Broadmoor World Arena. Any one else hear this talk or is it nonsense?

I salute your source.

 

[MakDox209]

Considering all the emails I get for concerts and the like, plus the proximity of Stockton to Sacramento (to the north), the Bay Area (west), and towns like Modesto to the south, it has the capability to be busy without a sports tenant.

Perhaps I regret adding my email address to that place, but eh...

Stockton rarely has concerts or any events outside of the Heat and G-Kings games

 

[Agalloch]

It sucks for Stockton. Will Stockton find another NHL team willing to go there, like Vancouver ? (Moving their Utica team to Stockton) ?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

It sucks for Stockton. Will Stockton find another NHL team willing to go there, like Vancouver ? (Moving their Utica team to Stockton) ?

No. It's either Utica or somewhere in BC for Vancouver.

Vancouver has given rave reviews to their relationship with Utica. Some of the listed reasons include liking their prospects being far away the Canuckland media, the amazing support from Utica fans, as well as Utica being a short- to medium-length bus trip away from every single conference game except for Charlotte. That's maximized time spent in their own beds, on the ice practicing, and in the gym getting stronger and minimized time spent on the bus or in the airport. Call-up times aren't very good, but Vancouver says they did the cost-benefit analysis and keeping the team in Utica easily topped moving the team down the road in Abbotsford. This article explains some of it: The (Underwhelming) Pros And (Considerable) Cons Of Moving The Utica Comets To Abbotsford

 

[Agalloch]

No. It's either Utica or somewhere in BC for Vancouver.

Vancouver has given rave reviews to their relationship with Utica. Some of the listed reasons include liking their prospects being far away the Canuckland media, the amazing support from Utica fans, as well as Utica being a short- to medium-length bus trip away from every single conference game except for Charlotte. That's maximized time spent in their own beds, on the ice practicing, and in the gym getting stronger and minimized time spent on the bus or in the airport. Call-up times aren't very good, but Vancouver says they did the cost-benefit analysis and keeping the team in Utica easily topped moving the team down the road in Abbotsford. This article explains some of it: The (Underwhelming) Pros And (Considerable) Cons Of Moving The Utica Comets To Abbotsford

I understand. So it means Stockton will lose pro hockey.