State of the Ducks

[Ducks DVM]

 

[bracer028]

We need a fire sale. Dump Kessler, getzlaf, rakell, fowler, and rebuild from there

 

[Deuce22]

We need a fire sale. Dump Kessler, getzlaf, rakell, fowler, and rebuild from there

Kesler and Fowler's contracts make them virtually impossible to trade. Rakell's value exceeds his contract, so trading him would be foolish.

 

[Sean Garrity]

I can understand the hate against Fowler, but some of you are being ridiculous. Fowler would absolutely have suitors. Imagine him being your #2/3 as opposed to your #1? That's where he should be, and in Anaheim we are all waiting for Lindholm to be our #1.

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

I try to convince myself that things have to get worse before they get better, and maybe I'm overreacting, but right now, it feels like we're in a bad place.

 

[AngelDuck]

I can understand the hate against Fowler, but some of you are being ridiculous. Fowler would absolutely have suitors. Imagine him being your #2/3 as opposed to your #1? That's where he should be, and in Anaheim we are all waiting for Lindholm to be our #1.

He has a NMC/NTC bro. He is basically untradeable because of that. It's just reality. It's why BM needs to be more careful when giving those out in the future and only give them to 1D, 1C, goalie types. Franchise players.

If he didn't have the NMC we could probably get rid of him tomorrow morning if we wanted to with minimal retention (if any).

I just looked it up. It's a modified NTC. So he would get to submit a list of 4 teams where he could be traded to.

 

[IDuck]

I try to convince myself that things have to get worse before they get better, and maybe I'm overreacting, but right now, it feels like we're in a bad place.

we are in a bad place....its called limbo...a new direction from this organization should have been established about 2-3 years ago, but we have instead took a "wait and see" approach...THIS ISNT WORKING and its plain to see, I know BM knows this and I (am really a big fan of BM) lose more and more respect for the guy each passing day that he allows this to continue...there are some things we have always been able to point to (mainly injuries) for why this team is where they are/or could get over the hump...TURN the page and lets take a new direction, i would say a new head coach, but moving out players would be something too ( i think is the wrong way), but we cant just keep rolling this same crap out day after day, year after year.

 

[Sean Garrity]

He has a NMC/NTC bro. He is basically untradeable because of that. It's just reality. It's why BM needs to be more careful when giving those out in the future and only give them to 1D, 1C, goalie types. Franchise players.

If he didn't have the NMC we could probably get rid of him tomorrow morning if we wanted to with minimal retention (if any).

I just looked it up. It's a modified NTC. So he would get to submit a list of 4 teams where he could be traded to.

So what you're saying is that every point that you made prior to this is not relevant. Yes, he has a limited NMC which may limit the return but, that doesn't mean that his contract is so albatross that no one will want to give up valuable assets for him. My only point was that some posters are being ridiculous with the asinine statements.

Edit: And there are limited posters calling out Lindholm continuing to make strides. Like I stated in my earlier post, we've been waiting for him to supplant Fowler since last season...and we're still waiting.

 

[AngelDuck]

So what you're saying is that every point that you made prior to this is not relevant. Yes, he has a limited NMC which may limit the return but, that doesn't mean that his contract is so albatross that no one will want to give up valuable assets for him. My only point was that some posters are being ridiculous with the asinine statements.

Edit: And there are limited posters calling out Lindholm continuing to make strides. Like I stated in my earlier post, we've been waiting for him to supplant Fowler since last season...and we're still waiting.

No, the limited NMC absolutely prevents us from getting valuable assets for him. How does it not? He's a #3 making #2 money, signed for 7 years, and can control where he goes to the point where only 13% (4/31) of the teams in the league can even entertain a move for him. If you don't think that ruins the ability to get valuable assets for him...then wow

And Lindholm has surpassed him a while ago. Come on now. He's not a superstar either but he's a better player and has been for a couple years. I'm not sure anyone on these boards is going to agree that Cam is equal to Lindholm somehow.

 

[SmokeyDuck]

I think its crazy to try to rebuild while Gibson is this good. We just need a better coach for starters.

 

[Sean Garrity]

No, the limited NMC absolutely prevents us from getting valuable assets for him. How does it not? He's a #3 making #2 money, signed for 7 years, and can control where he goes to the point where only 13% (4/31) of the teams in the league can even entertain a move for him. If you don't think that ruins the ability to get valuable assets for him...then wow

And Lindholm has surpassed him a while ago. Come on now. He's not a superstar either but he's a better player and has been for a couple years. I'm not sure anyone on these boards is going to agree that Cam is equal to Lindholm somehow.

Wait a minute, you originally said he was basically untradeable, which is simply not true. You can't move the goalposts in your argument now. You're right in that it prevents us from getting the maximum value in return, but it does not prevent us from getting valuable assets for him if that was the route that BM wanted to go. It only takes 2 teams to create a bidding war, and you can't say with any confidence that he would pick four teams that don't have valuable assets that they're willing to trade.

Fowler is a #3? Sure, on San Jose where he would be behind Burns and Karlsson, or in Nashville where he'd be behind Josi and Subban. Honestly, can you name 62 defenseman that you would take over him? I'll answer that for you, no, you can't unless you're flat out lying.

As for the bolded, that's simply your opinion and not a fact and it's completely fair to have that opinion. However, Cam has been deployed as the shutdown pairing against top lines consistently(with f***ing Kevin Bieksa at times as his partner) , by mutiple coaches with a hockey brain far superior to you or I. Surely they're not all idiots. I'm going to trust those far smarter than me in their field then myself as an armchair coach. That's your #1 defenseman. That's Cam, not Lindholm. I love Lindholm, but when asked to put on his big boy pants, he has consistently failed. This team needs Lindholm to be the #1, because we all agree that Fowler is much more suited for the #2 role or carrying a 2nd pairing.

 

[Paul4587]

Wait a minute, you originally said he was basically untradeable, which is simply not true. You can't move the goalposts in your argument now. You're right in that it prevents us from getting the maximum value in return, but it does not prevent us from getting valuable assets for him if that was the route that BM wanted to go. It only takes 2 teams to create a bidding war, and you can't say with any confidence that he would pick four teams that don't have valuable assets that they're willing to trade.

Fowler is a #3? Sure, on San Jose where he would be behind Burns and Karlsson, or in Nashville where he'd be behind Josi and Subban. Honestly, can you name 62 defenseman that you would take over him? I'll answer that for you, no, you can't unless you're flat out lying.

As for the bolded, that's simply your opinion and not a fact and it's completely fair to have that opinion. However, Cam has been deployed as the shutdown pairing against top lines consistently(with ****ing Kevin Bieksa at times as his partner) , by mutiple coaches with a hockey brain far superior to you or I. Surely they're not all idiots. I'm going to trust those far smarter than me in their field then myself as an armchair coach. That's your #1 defenseman. That's Cam, not Lindholm. I love Lindholm, but when asked to put on his big boy pants, he has consistently failed. This team needs Lindholm to be the #1, because we all agree that Fowler is much more suited for the #2 role or carrying a 2nd pairing.

I’m pretty disappointed that Lindholm hasn’t taken that next step and is still inconsistent but I disagree about Cam taking all the tough minutes. Cam plays more minutes but Carlyle has used the Lindholm pairing against other teams top players the most out of anyone since the beginning of last season. And even the playoffs two seasons ago he was the guy matched against McDavid while playing with a rookie in Montour.

 

[AngelDuck]

Wait a minute, you originally said he was basically untradeable, which is simply not true. You can't move the goalposts in your argument now. You're right in that it prevents us from getting the maximum value in return, but it does not prevent us from getting valuable assets for him if that was the route that BM wanted to go. It only takes 2 teams to create a bidding war, and you can't say with any confidence that he would pick four teams that don't have valuable assets that they're willing to trade.

Fowler is a #3? Sure, on San Jose where he would be behind Burns and Karlsson, or in Nashville where he'd be behind Josi and Subban. Honestly, can you name 62 defenseman that you would take over him? I'll answer that for you, no, you can't unless you're flat out lying.

As for the bolded, that's simply your opinion and not a fact and it's completely fair to have that opinion. However, Cam has been deployed as the shutdown pairing against top lines consistently(with ****ing Kevin Bieksa at times as his partner) , by mutiple coaches with a hockey brain far superior to you or I. Surely they're not all idiots. I'm going to trust those far smarter than me in their field then myself as an armchair coach. That's your #1 defenseman. That's Cam, not Lindholm. I love Lindholm, but when asked to put on his big boy pants, he has consistently failed. This team needs Lindholm to be the #1, because we all agree that Fowler is much more suited for the #2 role or carrying a 2nd pairing.

I actually think I can name 62 I’d take over Cam right now, I just don’t have the energy right now. I’ll try as many as I can which I’m sure won’t be good enough

Keith
Doughty
Karlsson
Burns
Hedman
Josi
Subban
Slavin
Vlasic
Carlson
Stralman
McAvoy
Krug
Provorov
Faulk
Klingberg
Letang
Reilly
Werenski
OEL
Gostisbehere
Pietrangelo
Sergachev
Trouba
Jones
Morrissey
Suter
Chabot
Giordano
Ristolainen
McDonaugh
Schmidt
Byfuglien
Brodin

Just off the top of my head...Cam’s a nice player but pretty out of his depth trying to be what the Ducks think he is for some strange reason

 

[Ducks DVM]

I actually think I can name 62 I’d take over Cam right now, I just don’t have the energy right now. I’ll try as many as I can which I’m sure won’t be good enough

Keith
Doughty
Karlsson
Burns
Hedman
Josi
Subban
Slavin
Vlasic
Carlson
Stralman
McAvoy
Krug
Provorov
Faulk
Klingberg
Letang
Reilly
Werenski
OEL
Gostisbehere
Pietrangelo
Sergachev
Trouba
Jones
Morrissey
Suter
Chabot
Giordano
Ristolainen
McDonaugh
Schmidt
Byfuglien
Brodin

Just off the top of my head...Cam’s a nice player but pretty out of his depth trying to be what the Ducks think he is for some strange reason

Yeah, that’s not nearly good enough. It’s only 34.

What is your definition of a #2 that you think that’s not Fowler? I think you put him next to any of those guys and that would be one hell of a top pairing.

 

[Sean Garrity]

I’m pretty disappointed that Lindholm hasn’t taken that next step and is still inconsistent but I disagree about Cam taking all the tough minutes. Cam plays more minutes but Carlyle has used the Lindholm pairing against other teams top players the most out of anyone since the beginning of last season. And even the playoffs two seasons ago he was the guy matched against McDavid while playing with a rookie in Montour.

You know what Paul, I tried to look up the deployment stats but was unsuccessful. I know last year was flip-flopped more often and seemed more contingent upon who(m?) Manson was paired with, but I wanted the stats and I would really be interested in what those stats show. IIRC, wasn't that right when Fowler was coming off like a torn meniscus or something? Not saying that Lindholm wouldn't have been deployed against him anyhow.

I actually think I can name 62 I’d take over Cam right now, I just don’t have the energy right now. I’ll try as many as I can which I’m sure won’t be good enough

Keith
Doughty
Karlsson
Burns
Hedman
Josi
Subban
Slavin
Vlasic
Carlson
Stralman
McAvoy
Krug
Provorov
Faulk
Klingberg
Letang
Reilly
Werenski
OEL
Gostisbehere
Pietrangelo
Sergachev
Trouba
Jones
Morrissey
Suter
Chabot
Giordano
Ristolainen
McDonaugh
Schmidt
Byfuglien
Brodin

Just off the top of my head...Cam’s a nice player but pretty out of his depth trying to be what the Ducks think he is for some strange reason

I think a couple of those are debatable, but even so that's only halfway to 62. He's a top 62 defenseman in the NHL.

 

[pbgoalie]

Maybe it wasn’t Bieksa after all.....being with Fowler dragged him down!

 

[Paul4587]

You know what Paul, I tried to look up the deployment stats but was unsuccessful. I know last year was flip-flopped more often and seemed more contingent upon who(m?) Manson was paired with, but I wanted the stats and I would really be interested in what those stats show. IIRC, wasn't that right when Fowler was coming off like a torn meniscus or something? Not saying that Lindholm wouldn't have been deployed against him anyhow.



I think a couple of those are debatable, but even so that's only halfway to 62. He's a top 62 defenseman in the NHL.

There's no ideal site to find the numbers, you have to filter through loads of crap to get decent results but here are a few links.

This shows McDavids most frequent 5 on 5 opponents in the 16-17 playoffs which unfortunately includes the SJ series also (I don't know how to get rid of those without extracting the data to excel). Silfverberg was his most common forward opponent at 69 minutes (a shade ahead of Kesler) while Lindholm was his most common dman opponent at 55 minutes. Manson was next at just under 43, Montour at 43 and Fowler at 41. I remember at the time checking the game logs (which are here) each game and at home Lindholm played by far the majority of the McDavid matchups and on the road McLellan tried to get McDavid out against the Fowler pairing so Cam tended to play slightly more against McDavid.

Here is Fowler's opposition log from last year and here is Lindholm's. Again no ideal ways to filter through the results but here are a few takeaways against a handful of our divisonal rival teams top forward:

• Lindholm played 42 mins against Kopitar at 5 on 5 with 53 minutes against the Kings where Kopitar wasn't on the ice while Fowler played 29 minutes against him and had 52 apart. It looks like Cam played one less game or had way less ice time against the Kings but Lindholm played a higher proportion of his time against Kopitar than Cam did.
• Against McDavid at 5v5 Lindholm played 29 of his 71 mins against Connor where as Fowler played 27 of his 73 minutes against him (both played same amount of games against Edmonton) so fairly even there.
• Against Calgary Lindholm played 18/50 (36%) of his 5v5 minutes against Gaudreau compared to Fowler who played 22/72 (30%) of his 5v5 minutes against him (Cam played an extra game against the Flames). So it appears that in the games both played Lindholm played a little bit more against Gaudreau at 5v5.
• Cam played 20/55 5v5 minutes against Keller in Arizona games, Lindholm 17/51 so slight edge to Cam there
• I don't know who you would describe SJ's clear cut top forward as last year so won't use an example there
• Boeser only played one game against Fowler (Cam played 5 5v5 mins against him) so there's no point in using his numbers

Those are really small samples and don't really say much but using those examples you can see they played roughly the same amount of time against top forwards with Lindholm being slightly favored of the two. But if you can be bothered trying to navigate around that site you can see more examples.

 

[TheStuntman]

Can the Ducks stop being outshot by a ridiculous margin please? Thanks! Per Nhl.com fewest SOG per game and giving up the most SOG per game. Margin is -14 per game! I was right to not watch another game again until Carlyle is fired.

 

[PhoenyX]

I want one of those shiny #1 picks that people are always talking about.

 

[AngelDuck]

You know what Paul, I tried to look up the deployment stats but was unsuccessful. I know last year was flip-flopped more often and seemed more contingent upon who(m?) Manson was paired with, but I wanted the stats and I would really be interested in what those stats show. IIRC, wasn't that right when Fowler was coming off like a torn meniscus or something? Not saying that Lindholm wouldn't have been deployed against him anyhow.



I think a couple of those are debatable, but even so that's only halfway to 62. He's a top 62 defenseman in the NHL.

Fair enough. I'm frustrated about things right now, so hard for me to keep a level head at times I suppose

 

[AngelDuck]

Yeah, that’s not nearly good enough. It’s only 34.

What is your definition of a #2 that you think that’s not Fowler? I think you put him next to any of those guys and that would be one hell of a top pairing.

I think what you are seeing this year and some of last year from Cam suggests he has taken a step back. I know the whole team is bad right now (and almost all of the dmen), but I was really hoping Fowler would progress into a leader of the defense, and instead I see him playing more and more passive both in front of the net and in the offensive zone.

He was quite possibly our best player in that series against the Blackhawks a few years ago. I haven't seen that guy in a while personally. Maybe it's the RC effect, maybe it isn't.

But I get your point

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Just find new coach/system and see how the team looks... and if things don't start to look better then consider cutting the fat

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I think what you are seeing this year and some of last year from Cam suggests he has taken a step back. I know the whole team is bad right now (and almost all of the dmen), but I was really hoping Fowler would progress into a leader of the defense, and instead I see him playing more and more passive both in front of the net and in the offensive zone.

He was quite possibly our best player in that series against the Blackhawks a few years ago. I haven't seen that guy in a while personally. Maybe it's the RC effect, maybe it isn't.

But I get your point

RCs bread and butter system was exploited by san jose….. he tried to change it up and play more to todays NHL and completely missed the mark.

Im not going to blame the dmen/forwards, because its just a terrible system... none of our dmen look good.... were basically ruining Montours development as a offensive dmen…. Lindholm Manson and fowler are exerting all their energy chasing the other team around the dzone because we cant have controlled exits/possession in the dzone/nuetralzone or offensive zone for that matter. Its just very ugly, and very boring hockey(at least as a ducks fan, for other fans they prob love playing us). I really don't know how BM can watch these games and think its acceptable. Things arnt going to get better until RC is gone... he is beter off just going back to the old system and hoping for he best.

 

[Vipers31]

I have no real reason to believe it, but I feel like Carlyle's end is closer than most of us dare to hope.

 

[terranraida]

I have no real reason to believe it, but I feel like Carlyle's end is closer than most of us dare to hope.

I would imagine mid November if it goes to hell in a handbasket, trying to salvage the season, and we ring up Dallas Eakins