Post-Game Talk: Stars 4, Pens 1 - The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same

[NewAgeOutlaw]

All the hockey hipsters around here will still maintain that Hornqvist / Neal trade was great. I beg to differ. This team sucks at scoring goals and trading a legit 40 goal sniper for a tweener was not the wisest choice if you ask me.

Nashville boned us on that trade and the cap friendly cap hit for Neal is just salt in the wounds

Neal has never scored more than 25 goals without Evgeni Malkin. Legit 40 goal sniper my ass.

He's been playing like one so far this season.. That's for sure. 1 point in 7 games while playing with the best 2 centers in hockey really tells the whole story

That's not even a quarter of the whole story. Nobody is producing on the Penguins.

 

[ColePens]

Neal has never scored more than 25 goals without Evgeni Malkin. Legit 40 goal sniper my ass.



That's not even a quarter of the whole story. Nobody is producing on the Penguins.

If cassius used his logic for anything more than ruffling feathers in an argument, then the entire team would be cut and Sid/Geno traded for pretty much anyone who has scored 40 one time.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Staring contest. You and me. Now!

 

[Old Gregg]

Listen man... a lot of people haven't heard of Goulet. I can guarantee it. A lot of us are 25 or older and we have to remember many posters were born AFTER the Penguins won their first two Stanley Cups. Being born in 1985, even I have no recollection of watching him play and only remember his name as told by many others.

hahahaha quick, staring contest, you and me, now......you win you always do

Who let the dogs out? who let those dogs out? Who let those little mutts go yaaaaah

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Once again, as is the case with many things... the Horns/Neal trade is actually somewhere in the middle of how it is being characterized by both sides, here. Kind of a wash, in the end, IMO. I don't want him back at this point (imagine him here with THESE absentee, no-ideas, milquetoast, please-don't-hate-me coaches) but he's also not nearly as "one-dimensional" and "worthless" as I'm seeing it told, here. Ask Nashville fans about his all-around game. They seem generally pleased. The guy is wearing a letter, for ****'s sake.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Snipers are cherished. One-dimensional, offer nothing else to the line/team when not putting the puck in the net type of players aren't.

Goalies and defensemen are too good nowadays to have a guy bringing nothing of substance to the table when he's not scoring goals. Everyone on the line has to be working, moving and creating.

Well, that was kinda the point I was making.

The NHL used to be LITTERED with one-dimensional 40-goal scorers. Virtually all 21 teams had one in the 80's.

Personally, I think guys who can score goals need to be cut WAY MORE slack. Look at soccer. Strikers are by and large prima donnas who have nowhere near the same work rate as the rest of the team. And yet, they make all the money and get all the glory. Why? Because the game needs goals and they are hard to come by.

If the NHL continues down the current road, we should start to cherish 40-goal-scorers way more than we do now.

Joel Quenneville gets it. He demands two-way play from everybody, except Kane. He makes an exception for a truly special offensive talent.

That's how it should be. Not all players are created equally.

 

[ColePens]

Staring contest. You and me. Now!

hahahaha quick, staring contest, you and me, now......you win you always do

Who let the dogs out? who let those dogs out? Who let those little mutts go yaaaaah

I was afraid nobody would get the reference.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Once again, as is the case with many things... the Horns/Neal trade is actually somewhere in the middle of how it is being characterized by both sides, here. Kind of a wash, in the end, IMO. I don't want him back at this point (imagine him here with THESE absentee, no-ideas, milquetoast, please-don't-hate-me coaches) but he's also not nearly as "one-dimensional" and "worthless" as I'm seeing it told, here. Ask Nashville fans about his all-around game. They seem generally pleased. The guy is wearing a letter, for ****'s sake.

I don't mean to sound negative to Neal. He's a great player. I loved Neal and if he was still here I still would. I think its been a good trade for both sides. And I think putting Horny back with Sid will remind people here of why that is. Especially because I think Kessel should be better with Geno than he has been with Sid.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I would have liked to see that if they stuck with the Crosby-Kessel combo, but I think switching Kessel and Hornqvist will have a bigger impact.

With you as far as Dupes and Hornqvist being too much of the same on that line (it needs a skilled complement), but I think Crosby and Hornqvist together is the more important development, and will pay off regardless of who's on the other side - they looked great even with an utterly useless Kunitz on the other side last year. Those two feed off one another's determination.

Plotnikov-Malkin-Kessel looks very promising to me too. Well-rounded line.

Hell, Kunitz-Bonino-Sprong might even work.

I don't think I disagree with your first paragraph. I wanted Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist Plotnikov-Malkin-Kessel to start the year as well.

It's just that breaking up Crosby-Kessel before trying them with a different left wing (outside of one period) makes me feel like Johnston isn't aware of why the line was failing, and that in itself is concerning.

I agree with the rest of your post. Sid and Horny really do need a skill guy, but they seem to have this magic when playing together. Plotnikov-Malkin-Kessel should be solid as long as Plots can keep up.

It'll be interesting to see what Johnston does if Malkin and Kessel don't immediately click. I wonder if he'll have the patience to let them work it out. I guess it'll depend on how much Sid-Horny produces.

As for ideal wingers for Sid, I'd say Parise - Crosby - Hornqvist is actually the most perfect line I could come up with. Both guys compliment Sid's style and attack, all three guys bust their *****, Parise's got 50g scoring potential, and Hornqvist is a monster around the net.

That is the perfect Sid line.

Well, yeah. Parise has always been the perfect winger for Sid. Which is why #parisewatch stung so badly. I've always said that someone like Landeskog is also a perfect match.

Edit: Or Saad.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, that was kinda the point I was making.

The NHL used to be LITTERED with one-dimensional 40-goal scorers. Virtually all 21 teams had one in the 80's.

Personally, I think guys who can score goals need to be cut WAY MORE slack. Look at soccer. Strikers are by and large prima donnas who have nowhere near the same work rate as the rest of the team. And yet, they make all the money and get all the glory. Why? Because the game needs goals and they are hard to come by.

If the NHL continues down the current road, we should start to cherish 40-goal-scorers way more than we do now.

Joel Quenneville gets it. He demands two-way play from everybody, except Kane. He makes an exception for a truly special offensive talent.

That's how it should be. Not all players are created equally.

40 goal scorers are cherished. Look at Ovi, Stamkos, Seguin, Tarasenko, Tavares, and Patches. Those guys are consistently talked about as some of the best players in the league. Nash was talked in that light last year too. When Neal scored 40 goals, he was an all star. But to be treated like a 40 goal scorer, he needs to score somewhere near 40 goals again.

Can you name me a 35-40 goal scorer who isn't near-unanimously considered a great player?

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Poppa, I love it when you call me big poppa
Throw your hands in the air if ya think you're a player

That sketch is gold.

Iirc, Neal was the third best player on his line in Nashville last year and was easily out produced by Hornqvist. Funny how we were not hearing people whine about the trade much last year.

 

[Joejosh999]

I thought Coach Q nearly lost his job by not putting Kane/Toewes together til the very last minute a couple playoffs ago. From talking to Chi fan/friends, he can be just as thick headed roster wise as anybody we've had in Pgh lately.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

40 goal scorers are cherished. Look at Ovi, Stamkos, Seguin, Tarasenko, Tavares, and Patches. Those guys are consistently talked about as some of the best players in the league. Nash was talked in that light last year too. When Neal scored 40 goals, he was an all star. But to be treated like a 40 goal scorer, he needs to score somewhere near 40 goals again.

Yeah, I get that. But are we going to chastise him if he doesn't hit 40 playing all season with Mike Fisher as his center?

James Neal is having a great start to the season. Maybe, just maybe it was the current state of the Pens that turned him into a one-dimensional player.

Also, maybe just maybe when a player is one-dimensional but his one dimension is in extremely short supply throughout the NHL, perhaps you could let some of his faults slide a little?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I have no dog in this fight. I liked Neal when he was here. I like Hornqvist now that he's here. Moreover, I like that Spaling is no longer here.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, I get that. But are we going to chastise him if he doesn't hit 40 playing all season with Mike Fisher as his center?

James Neal is having a great start to the season. Maybe, just maybe it was the current state of the Pens that turned him into a one-dimensional player.

Also, maybe just maybe when a player is one-dimensional but his one dimension is in extremely short supply throughout the NHL, perhaps you could let some of his faults slide a little?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I have no dog in this fight. I liked Neal when he was here. I like Hornqvist now that he's here. Moreover, I like that Spaling is no longer here.

James Neal is a very good hockey player. I think its a pretty clear minority of people who disagree with that. If its not, it should be. I also agree that he was largely coached to be more one-dimensional here too. We saw a few spurts from him where he was a dominant player.

 

[radapex]

Yeah same here, actually. I used to really focus on being home and ready to watch games. If a game of the week was on, I'd DVR it or make sure to catch parts. I won't sacrifice my life, at all, for the NHL product at this point. If my buddy wants to play tennis and it's 7:00, **** it... I'll head to the courts and get a good workout instead of watching. I'll catch the replay or DVR it and watch parts I want to see to analyze.

I love the game of hockey, but goodness the product league-wide right now is not as fun to enjoy. The rinks need to be larger now more than ever. The game is slow and boring. I remember watching the Worlds this year and REALLY enjoying the pace of the game. So much ice looked available and top talent was able to make plays w/ space.

So true. For as much as we despise how the Pens are playing right now, they didn't change their style just for the hell of it. Playing wide-open offensive hockey is a recipe for disaster now, and so they've changed their style to meet where the league has gone - defensive hockey and hope your forwards can capitalize on mistakes made by your opponents.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Yeah, I get that. But are we going to chastise him if he doesn't hit 40 playing all season with Mike Fisher as his center?

James Neal is having a great start to the season. Maybe, just maybe it was the current state of the Pens that turned him into a one-dimensional player.

Also, maybe just maybe when a player is one-dimensional but his one dimension is in extremely short supply throughout the NHL, perhaps you could let some of his faults slide a little?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I have no dog in this fight. I liked Neal when he was here. I like Hornqvist now that he's here. Moreover, I like that Spaling is no longer here.

Doesn't Neal play with Ribeiro and Forsberg? Or did they switch him to Fisher just this year?

 

[PensFreak]

So true. For as much as we despise how the Pens are playing right now, they didn't change their style just for the hell of it. Playing wide-open offensive hockey is a recipe for disaster now, and so they've changed their style to meet where the league has gone - defensive hockey and hope your forwards can capitalize on mistakes made by your opponents.

Not a great strategy when your offense can't score and your defense makes mistakes.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Sorry if this has been posted already, but here are the practice lines per Josh Yohe:

Dupuis - Crosby - Hornqvist
Plotnikov - Malkin - Kessel
Kunitz - Bonino - Sprong
Perron - Cullen - Porter - Rust (Wings rotating)

MJ's job is on the line, so he is finally shuffling the deck. Kunitz demoted is nice to see, Hornqvist back with sid is nice to see, finally getting a look at the Malone - Malkin - Sykora line on steroids and speed is nice to see. It's too bad seeing Perron on the 4th but after the game he had, it's not surprising. He may end up being the trade bait we dangle for a defenseman.

No word on D pairs, but here's hoping Clendening sees action. Letang, Cole and Dumoulin have to be considered locks right now. Maatta is struggling compared to what he is capable of but isn't bad, so one of Scuderi or Lovejoy hopefully rides pine.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Doesn't Neal play with Ribeiro and Forsberg? Or did they switch him to Fisher just this year?

Not sure about this year, but he was with those guys last year. But wasn't Fisher hurt for a lot of last year?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

So true. For as much as we despise how the Pens are playing right now, they didn't change their style just for the hell of it. Playing wide-open offensive hockey is a recipe for disaster now, and so they've changed their style to meet where the league has gone - defensive hockey and hope your forwards can capitalize on mistakes made by your opponents.

Yeah... it's basically "Get in the way for 60 minutes (lol -- like the refs will call anything), don't take ANY chances at all, shove all of your players to the middle of the ice while the other team is transitioning... and then all of them in front of the goaltender while they are in the zone. Oh... and if there is time, try to score a goal, maybe. BUT ONLY IF IT'S SAFE TO DO SO!!! The fans can be content with shootouts and 3 v 3 for their precious offense."

I just can't understand why the game is so boring and losing fans and viewship hand over fist. Such a mystery!

 

[Jag68Sid87]

So true. For as much as we despise how the Pens are playing right now, they didn't change their style just for the hell of it. Playing wide-open offensive hockey is a recipe for disaster now, and so they've changed their style to meet where the league has gone - defensive hockey and hope your forwards can capitalize on mistakes made by your opponents.

A recipe for disaster to me would be acquiring all kinds of scoring talent up front, ignoring the defense, and THEN not being able to score goals to save yourselves.

THAT's a recipe for disaster. Our best chance to win hockey games right now is by out-scoring opponents.

You don't acquire Phil Kessel to improve your 200-foot game.

Doesn't Neal play with Ribeiro and Forsberg? Or did they switch him to Fisher just this year?

Not sure about this year, but he was with those guys last year. But wasn't Fisher hurt for a lot of last year?

They started out this season with Ribeiro, but now it seems Laviolette has gone with Forsberg-Fisher-Neal and it seems to be working.

We'll see tomorrow night, I suppose.

 

[Waffle Fries]

A recipe for disaster to me would be acquiring all kinds of scoring talent up front, ignoring the defense, and THEN not being able to score goals to save yourselves.

THAT's a recipe for disaster. Our best chance to win hockey games right now is by out-scoring opponents.

You don't acquire Phil Kessel to improve your 200-foot game.

I know I personally would rather watch the team lose scoring 5 goals a night than lose scoring 2 goals or less.

If we aren't going to play well, at least be exciting.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think it's pretty clear at this point that regardless of what MJ has been flat-out lying about what his system entails... it's actually extremely basic (to the point of hilarity and probably insult to the players) and very much catered towards defense, defense, defense. League copycat ********, basically. The wrongheaded assumption is that a wealth of offensive talent will somehow rise above all of that to even out the team's goal scoring.

It's as dumb as it ever was under the previous auspices of "Sid and Geno are good enough to carry the load on their own!" It's just that it's going under a different guise, now.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

The memories are all rushing back to me now. I recall Cassius claiming that Ribeiro was trash and was holding Neal back. Meanwhile, Ribeiro was outproducing Neal and rookie Forsberg was having no trouble producing with him. Good times.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I'd like to see Perron on the top line, but he hasn't really deserved it. If he plays well, then switch him with Dupers. I can't see Dupuis playing on the top line (and being effective) for an entire season.

This team isn't going anywhere if Perron isn't contributing to the top 6. Put him back with Sid and Horny and let him figure it out.