Movies: Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi, for those who have seen it! (SPOILERS) | Part II

NyQuil

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Jan 5, 2005
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Yes.. the prequels ... a model of great story telling... universally panned by fans and critics alike.... :sarcasm:

When you are using the prequels to defend these movies.. you know... that you have a flimsy argument.

Am I standing here telling you that these new movies should be more like the prequels ?

And yet... there was some build up for that scene. By that point Anakin wanted to save Padme, and was slowly but surely corrupted by the emperor. He was trained too late and there was an explanation for it all. A good one ? Not exactly but a heck of a lot better than what TLJ did.

God, it's like I'm brand new to this thread or something.

Where have I said anywhere that I like TLJ?

I've gone on record REPEATEDLY saying that it's the worst Star Wars movie.

This is getting really tiresome.

However, you asked as if the dark side was a magical reason to explain ridiculous or completely irrational behaviours and the answer apparently is yes.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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God, it's like I'm brand new to this thread or something.

Where have I said anywhere that I like TLJ?

I've gone on record REPEATEDLY saying that it's the worst Star Wars movie.

This is getting really tiresome.

However, you asked as if the dark side was a magical reason to explain ridiculous or completely irrational behaviours and the answer apparently is yes.

I don't keep a spreadsheet of everyone's opinion on everything. But the fact is that you tried to counter my argument that the dark side was a magical explanation for irrational behavior by bringing up a prequel event. My answer was that using the bad prequels as an argument was not actually an argument. And now you're acting like I'm saying you liked TLJ ? I don't get it and it is indeed quite tiresome.
 

NyQuil

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Ottawa, ON
My answer was that using the bad prequels as an argument was not actually an argument.

Of course it's an argument.

You and I may not like it, but they exist, and they are part of the Star Wars story.

Philip The Third said:
And now you're acting like I'm saying you liked TLJ ? I don't get it and it is indeed quite tiresome.

I'm not "defending" these movies.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Of course it's an argument.

You and I may not like it, but they exist, and they are part of the Star Wars story.

I must accept that the prequels are canon and part of the universe despite the fact everyone said they sucked and we had all hoped that these new movies would be better.

That being said... Anakin slaying the kids was better explained and made more sense than Luke standing over his nephew with a lightsaber intending to kill him. There litterally was no build up or explanation for Luke acting that way. There wasn't because nothing would have ever made sense for him to act this way. Just like there is no possible justification for you standing over your wife/gf with a knife drawn over her sleeping form. The dark side or impulsiveness have nothing to do with this.

Anakin on the other hand was acting selfishly to save Padme. There is a lot of build up toward this. It's not great and not perfect at all.. but it's a heck of a lot better than what TLJ did.. which is nothing. They just wanted us to accept at face value that Luke would kill his nephew in his sleep.

I'm not "defending" these movies.

It sounds an awful lot like you are. But if you aren't, good for you. Why do you feel the need to justify your motives to me ? I don't care if you liked TLJ or not. All I know is that you're using the prequels for explaining Luke's completely irrational behavior in TLJ. I call it defending, I'm sure you'd call it being the devil's advocate... or perhaps you think you are the authority in logical arguments. I don't honestly care what your motives are. I just care that you're using a terrible argument to explain a terrible decision in TLJ.
 
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NyQuil

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That being said... Anakin slaying the kids was better explained and made more sense than Luke standing over his nephew with a lightsaber intending to kill him. There litterally was no build up or explanation for Luke acting that way. There wasn't because nothing would have ever made sense for him to act this way. Just like there is no possible justification for you standing over your wife/gf with a knife drawn over her sleeping form. The dark side or impulsiveness have nothing to do with this

Oh, come on. That's patently absurd.

He's a Jedi Master.



Kylo Ren ends up murdering a whole bunch of people (including Luke's best friend, and almost his sister).

You don't think Luke had some inkling that this was a strong possibility? And he had to choose to allow Kyle to live, potentially allowing Han to be killed by his own son?

He was clearly conflicted, and he -didn't- end up doing it.

If I had a superpower that allowed me to read people and see into the future, and in those visions my wife killed a whole bunch of people that I loved, yeah, maybe I'd be a little conflicted too.

He feels responsible for failing Kyle as an instructor and wants to mitigate the damage.

Nothing would have ever made sense? Not the fact that Kylo's idol is Darth Vader? Luke wouldn't see this somehow?

Silly.

It sounds an awful lot like you are. But if you aren't, good for you. Why do you feel the need to justify your motives to me ? I don't care if you liked TLJ or not. All I know is that you're using the prequels for explaining Luke's completely irrational behavior in TLJ. I call it defending, I'm sure you'd call it being the devil's advocate... or perhaps you think you are the authority in logical arguments. I don't honestly care what your motives are. I just care that you're using a terrible argument to explain a terrible decision in TLJ.

It's a minor issue that people are blowing up into massive proportions because they want to hate everything about TLJ.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Oh, come on. That's patently absurd.

He's a Jedi Master.



Kylo Ren ends up murdering a whole bunch of people (including Luke's best friend, and almost his sister).

You don't think Luke had some inkling that this was a strong possibility? And he had to choose to allow Kyle to live, potentially allowing Han to be killed by his own son?

He was clearly conflicted, and he -didn't- end up doing it.

If I had a superpower that allowed me to read people and see into the future, and in those visions my wife killed a whole bunch of people that I loved, yeah, maybe I'd be a little conflicted too.

He feels responsible for failing Kyle as an instructor and wants to mitigate the damage.

Nothing would have ever made sense? Not the fact that Kylo's idol is Darth Vader? Luke wouldn't see this somehow?

Silly.


But for me to accept that Luke would consider this as a solution, I need some set up. I need to see Luke teaching Kylo as a kid. I need to see Snoke influencing Kylo. I need to see Kylo doing some evil things, or I need to see Luke see the future with his force powers and see Kylo doing horrible things. I need to see Luke engaging with him and trying to turn him away form the dark side. It needs some build up. I just don't think you can make a hero character with a morale standard do something like what he did in TLJ without actually building up toward it. It needs to be shown on the screen. And if you remove the canto blight 30 minutes waste of time, and instead build this up.. perhaps today I think the movie is a heck of a lot better. But as is stands right now, I cannot accept that Luke would act this way. I cannot imagine a scenario where this makes sense. You have to actually show that scenario to me for me to accept it. And Johnson did not do that. Instead, he decided to use his air time showing Luke angrily drinking green milk from some creature's titties, and that awful casino bit that made zero sense.

It's a minor issue that people are blowing up into massive proportions because they want to hate everything about TLJ.

It's a major issue. I feel strongly about it. But even if I am personally overstating its importance.... and it's minor... the entire movie sucks. I don't want to hate everything about it. But I do.. it's a genuinely terrible movie with no redeeming qualities. I am serious it has no qualities. TFA had a lot of flaws. It was not original, just a rehash of IV. But it was also a fun time at the movies. It made you think that the next 2 movies could potentially be great. TLJ crapped all over that.
 

Suxnet

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And once you go beyond Disney owning both of them you start to realize they are very different properties which cannot be compared.
 

Cole Caulifield

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And once you go beyond Disney owning both of them you start to realize they are very different properties which cannot be compared.

They're only compared together in the broad sense of both being universes owned by the same company, and why one is highly successful and the other seems to be going downhill. Which is entirely fair to do. I fail to see how the video I linked above is making some impossible or unfair comparison. The most details the video gets into is when it highlights differences such as the fact that Star wars is in a galaxy far far way, while the marvel universe is set in our contemporary world but aside from that it speaks of both franchises in the very general sense, how they are run, etc.
 

ArGarBarGar

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Sep 8, 2008
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No one is saying that he should be the exact same, but that's not an excuse to change the character to the point where he's almost unrecognizable. To write for a beloved franchise like this is a privilege, and to change a beloved character to one that fans don't like any more (and feel more relief than sadness when he dies) is an abuse of that privilege.
In what way? What is Luke about during the OT and what makes him unrecognizable that was not demonstrated in TLJ and can be understood as perfectly plausible after 30 years of time? He became a legend, began to believe the legend and in his hubris built a temple, then when the warning signs for Ben Solo started coming he seemed to not take any mind to them until they became so frequent that he felt the need to look into his mind and actually see what the future of Ben Solo would hold. Right up to that point I do not see where Luke is out of character, so the only thing you really can argue is if Luke Skywalker after seeing what he saw could make an irrational mistake out of instinct and emotion. And considering he has done that very same thing in the past it should be plausible that he could do so again.

may not need adequate on-screen justification to accept Luke's transformation, because you're willing to imagine your own satisfactory explanations, but others do. It's not good writing if the audience has to speculate to make sense of what the writer failed to.
The on screen justification is there, it just isn't spelled out for you. No, you should not need everything spelled out to you in the film for you to be able to understand what is going on.

Haven't you noticed everything that I am saying to "explain" why it isn't necessarily out of character for Luke to do what he did comes from the movies?

What do you dispute about Luke's character out of these things in the movie? These are after the events of ESB which I think is the best place to start.

1. He is incredibly cocky and sure of his abilities in Jabba's palace.
2. He is very defensive of his friends which is why he goes to such great lengths to save Han.
3. He gives himself up to Darth Vader, and despite wanting to turn him back to the light side initiates the confrontation between the two by attacking Palpatine as he wanted.
4. He eventually refuses to fight Vader, but is goaded into attacking him (and trying to kill him) based on an emotional response from Vader threatening to corrupt his sister.
5. Through this lapse of judgement Luke weakens Vader and cuts his hand off, potentially a major contributor to his eventual death by Palpatine soon after.
6. Luke realizes what he has done and stops, but not after the damage was done.
7. He takes Vader's body to be cremated on Endor and the Rebellion is victorious.
8. He becomes a legend (his testimony).
9. Through his hubris he builds a temple believing he can rebuild the order (his testimony).
10. He begins to train a dozen young boys, Ben Solo among them.
11. Through training he notices the darkness building within Ben (his testimony).
12. Eventually it comes to the point where Luke feels he needs to actually peer into his mind (this can be reasonbly inferred)
13. He sees everything and everyone he loved destroyed. While we do not know exactly how this works (which is basically the case for anything force related) we can believe he is telling the truth as far as what he did actually being an accurate projection into his future (unless you want to argue him as being an unreliable narrator in this specific instance).
14. Through the pain he sees for those he cares about he becomes incredibly emotional and distraught.
15. Through his emotional distress he instinctively reacts, treating Ben as an enemy like he did Vader when he attacked him in ROTJ (I do not believe you can just turn off certain aspects of who you are just because you went through them before or over the course of time. Some things just stick with you).
16. He immediately stops himself, ashamed of his response.
17. Ben sees what he sees and it is now too late for any potential redemption.
18. Luke wakes up after being covered in rubble and left to die, sees his temple destroyed and many of his pupils killed because of his mistake.
19. Through his failure and feeling directly responsible for making Ben's future come true, he cuts himself off from the force and becomes a recluse.

I think of these 19 is the closest to being out of character, but I can still accept that as a plausible thing (and probably the best way to explain why Luke was on an island in hiding in the first place).
 

Osprey

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Feb 18, 2005
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You're interpreting the events of the original trilogy to support the writing in the new one. For example, you call Luke "cocky" instead of "confident" at the start of RotJ to support the hubris in TLJ. You call it a "mistake" and a "weakness" for him to rage at Vader in a duel so that it sounds comparable to raising a lightsaber against a boy in his sleep. You suggest (again) that that "weakness" contributed to Vader's death, presumably to tie it to almost contributing to Kylo's death, even though Luke chopped off a fake hand and it was the Emperor's lightning that killed him. You also suggest that Luke didn't finish Vader off because he realized what he'd done and felt ashamed, even though there's no evidence at all that he felt bad about it (in fact, he turned his back on Vader to have a confident exchange with the Emperor).

You're really reaching to try to justify the new depiction. Let me ask you this: if Rian Johnson had written old Luke to be more like old Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon, would you have made the same arguments, using the same scenes, to show that portraying him as that pure of a Jedi is out of character for him? Somehow, I can't see you being one of lone voices of criticism and suspect, instead, that you would've defended that depiction against any critics that argued what you're arguing now. Am I wrong?

To be honest, it's hard to take your argument seriously because I have the feeling that you would've defended the depiction of Luke in TLJ regardless of the direction that Rian Johnson decided to go in. You're welcome to turn it around on me, but I can tell you right now that my argument would not have changed at all if Luke had been portrayed the other way. I might've still criticized the film, since there are many other issues with it, but Luke's portrayal wouldn't have been one of them, much like how I have many issues with TFA, but Han Solo's portrayal has never been one of them.
 
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Finlandia WOAT

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The on screen justification is there, it just isn't spelled out for you.

That's the problem.

No, you should not need everything spelled out to you in the film for you to be able to understand what is going on.

Unless the lack of clarification inhibits understanding of the film. A lot of people I talked with, and reviews I read, took Luke's anti-Jedi screed in the first half of the film at face value- and not the empty, desperate rhetoric of an old man who failed everyone in his life, himself most of all.

In what way? What is Luke about during the OT and what makes him unrecognizable that was not demonstrated in TLJ
[@ end of RotJ]
OT Luke: Youthful idealism tempered with hard won experience

TLJ Luke: Jaded cynical old curmudgeon

OT Luke: The strength to fight (and die) for what he believes is righteous.

TLJ Luke: Hiding out on an island, insistent that the galaxy going to sh!t is not his problem

OT Luke: Surrounded by friends, driven to act by a common goal.

TLJ Luke: Alone (literal and spuritual), unable to make a decision or act.

OT Luke: Overcomes the darkness [metaphor for his personal faults] within himself

TLJ Luke: Terrified the darkness within others [metaphor for their personal faults] will consume them.

OT Luke: Understands the value of the experience and wisdom imparted from those who came before him [final shot of RotJ: Luke looks to camera right to the force ghosts, away from the group, watching the festivities from the side- the past, the receding generation's transmitted wisdom, a part of him now and always- to himself and his friends- the present- to camera left- the future they now inherit, theirs to define and mold: the point ensconced in TLJ that Luke failed with this responsibility is a potent and important message]

TLJ Luke: That wisdom is bullcrap and will lead you astray. He has cut himself off from the Force, metaphor for said wisdom (vs. the ending, where he hears Yoda's counsel and force projects to save the Rebellion).

OT Luke: Thinks his father/Space Hitler is redeemable from what has happened, and is proven correct. [I will succeed where the previous generation failed. ]

TLJ Luke: Afraid his son nephew will fall to darkness based on what might be. [The next generation will fail where I succeeded. ]

This is intentional, and it links back Luke's pride.

If you not only reverse what a beloved character stood for, but place the repudiation and invective on the seemingly sincere tongue of that very character, you're going to upset those who connected, on an emotional level, with those values: nevermind those who connected with the character.

I like TLJ (@NyQuil), and I liked Luke's arc the most, but I also think the arc's presentation is a non-insignificant source of the angst against the film.

5. Through this lapse of judgement Luke weakens Vader and cuts his hand off, potentially a major contributor to his eventual death by Palpatine soon after.
6. Luke realizes what he has done and stops, but not after the damage was done.

1) A stretch; 2) not specified in the film; 3) it was probably the lightning; 4) beside the point that Luke, faced with giving into his anger and murdering his father, or sparing him, chooses the later- because "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Likewise, Vader faces a choice: let my son die, or act: he chooses to act, and saves his son while eating the brunt of the lightning.

They do this in spite of the fact it will lead to their death, which mirrors Luke at the end of TLJ and contrasts with Luke at the beginning.
 
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Moon Man

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I must accept that the prequels are canon and part of the universe despite the fact everyone said they sucked and we had all hoped that these new movies would be better.

That being said... Anakin slaying the kids was better explained and made more sense than Luke standing over his nephew with a lightsaber intending to kill him. There litterally was no build up or explanation for Luke acting that way. There wasn't because nothing would have ever made sense for him to act this way. Just like there is no possible justification for you standing over your wife/gf with a knife drawn over her sleeping form. The dark side or impulsiveness have nothing to do with this.

Anakin on the other hand was acting selfishly to save Padme. There is a lot of build up toward this. It's not great and not perfect at all.. but it's a heck of a lot better than what TLJ did.. which is nothing. They just wanted us to accept at face value that Luke would kill his nephew in his sleep.



It sounds an awful lot like you are. But if you aren't, good for you. Why do you feel the need to justify your motives to me ? I don't care if you liked TLJ or not. All I know is that you're using the prequels for explaining Luke's completely irrational behavior in TLJ. I call it defending, I'm sure you'd call it being the devil's advocate... or perhaps you think you are the authority in logical arguments. I don't honestly care what your motives are. I just care that you're using a terrible argument to explain a terrible decision in TLJ.

Massively massively agree. Can’t believe this is an argument here. Luke self sacrificed himself to the hope that his father would become good. Now he ignites his lightsaber to kill his own nephew, doesn’t even try talking to him Lol! To those saying Luke thought Kylo would kill Han/Leia his friends, my gosh, you don’t think Vader would have as well? The titty milk must taste pretty good, he didn’t even want to try to stop Kylo once Han actually died.

These Disney movies blow so hard, and are the epitemy of nonsense. It’s why everyone is cashing out in droves. I heard that the rotten tomatoes audience score doesn’t even count half stars in the rating. If true, hardly anyone enjoys these steaming piles.
 

ArGarBarGar

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Sep 8, 2008
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Well, I'll let that be the last word on the subject (at least with me involved, unless Osprey wants to respond) and just retire from arguing about TLJ on this board.

Unfortunate that a lot of people hated it and hope the next installment can bring those people back.
 

Yarborough

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Mar 14, 2015
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I feel like these new movies were just wasted potential in general. I’d love to see plots about the aftermath of ROTJ and the fracturing of the galaxy into full blown sectarian violence. But alas that’s not what we got.

If the movies were less connected to characters we know and love I feel that it would be much better, like a few mentions of a Luke and Leia here or a Han Solo cameo there. Hitching the wagon to these old characters then poorly executing parts of the plot surrounding them doesn’t make things better either.

Then again the main reason I hate the Star Wars fanbase is the reaction to this movie. I strongly disliked the movie personally but every cockroach came out of the woodwork to call it feminist propaganda and yadayadayada and now Star Wars is so toxic that it’s hard to touch or be part of the fandom at all which is a little bit of the movies fault for being pretty bad but mostly peoples fault for being trash.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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How to save this entire mess ?

Introduce some super powerful invasive alien race where everyone left in the galaxy has to unite to survive. Rey+rebels have to unite with Rylo and 1st order.

To even give this 9th movie a remote chance of success you have to change everything
 
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Moon Man

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How to save this entire mess ?

Introduce some super powerful invasive alien race where everyone left in the galaxy has to unite to survive. Rey+rebels have to unite with Rylo and 1st order.

To even give this 9th movie a remote chance of success you have to change everything

That’s actually a really creative idea. I think that they would have to be some sort of inter-dimensional beings to spark my interest. They need the power to cancel out all surrounding hyper drive capabilities, or they too would be a meaningless threat to the good guys. If one of the beings had more power than Rey, it could give her a credible challenge that we can see her struggle to overcome. That would make her character much more relatable, at least for me.
 

Moon Man

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Yes. see: the end of Return on the jedi.

Taking the initiative to self sacrifice yourself and talk to your currently evil vile father to convince him to be good =/= immidiatly igniting your lightsaber to kill your potentially evil and potentially vile nephew without words.

Edit: not to mention not taking the initiative to try talking with your now evil vile nephew to convince him to be good again.

Lol these movies are so bad.
 
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Tawnos

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Sep 10, 2004
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The hilarious and sad thing about all of this is that before TLJ came out, a lot of the people who were upset about Luke's story arc (yes, it's a story arc now and not just a "way he was portrayed") would have agreed that the Jedi only screw things up. There was a lot of talk about "Grey Jedi" before the movie came out without a lot of thought about how such a thing would manifest. Particularly when the ideas behind a 3rd path come up in someone who once followed the good path. People like the idea of neutrality, but not so much what it really would mean to enact it.

I will say that I too would have liked more flashbacks involving Luke's training of Ben. I think part of what happened was influenced by the EU (which Rian Johnson is familiar with). For a lot of people, the idea of Luke starting an academy is old hat and it's easy to see how it could get taken for granted. I agree that worked against this movie.

I personally don't think that anything Luke did was out of character. Or at least, I can see how he would progress to that point based on what we saw of him in the OT and what we know of his genetics from the PT and Clone Wars. His father and mother were both extremely impulsive. But then again, I've often been able to auto-fill in gaps with my imagination and sometimes that might admittedly blind me to flaws in the storytelling itself. Sometimes I like it better that way, though.
 
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Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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I personally don't think that anything Luke did was out of character. Or at least, I can see how he would progress to that point based on what we saw of him in the OT and what we know of his genetics from the PT and Clone Wars. His father and mother were both extremely impulsive. But then again, I've often been able to auto-fill in gaps with my imagination and sometimes that might admittedly blind me to flaws in the storytelling itself. Sometimes I like it better that way, though.

Being impulsive doesn't justify one standing over a sleeping kid with a drawn weapon. That's not something I'd classify as an impulse. That's just cowardly, and stupid.

If Luke had been pushed to that point, it would have been Snoke's careful manipulation of Kylo, and the result of something that happened over a long period of time. It's sorta explained in the movie as well (if I remember right, only seen it once), where they say that Kylo had started influencing the other kids.

So in reality it's not an impulsive thing. It shouldn't have been.

I can't imagine a scenario where Luke would stand over the sleeping form of his nephew, not just any kid, but his nephew, with a drawn weapon. He would confront him first. He would try to save him. Perhaps, if he was convinced Kylo was bad and there was no changing that he'd resort to killing him but it sure as hell wouldn't be in his sleep, and it wouldn't be an impulsive thing. That's ridiculous.

You don't impulsively stand over the sleeping form of a family member with a drawn weapon. That really makes no sense, jedi or not, force or not.
 

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